Hoid's purpose on Sel

[Steelheart]

So at the end of Elantris (10th anniversary ed), Hoid has a conversation with a Skaze. Here's the quote that caught my eye:

"You have failed utterly, Hoed. You are not one of them; you haven’t the powers you promised us you’d gain. You’ve accomplished nothing. What beauty is there in this situation?”

Two things stuck out to me; 

1) Hoid made a promise to the Skaze that he'd become an Elantrian. This makes it seem like he needed their support in order to accomplish something (becoming an Elantrian might have been a side effect). Why did he need their support? 

2) Yet another conversation with Hoid leads to beauty (he goes on to answer that the beauty is in the fact that there are "secrets that remain unknown"....sounds alot like Kelsier to me). Not reading too deep here, but it's definitely a theme for him.

[ArmbarBanker]

Is this conversation also in the mass market paperbacks?

[Steelheart]

2 minutes ago, ArmbarBanker said:

Is this conversation also in the mass market paperbacks?

Yes, but only the 10th Anniversary Editions 

[Yata he/him]

Well becoming an Elantrian would gift Hoid with an Infinite High plasmabile amount of Investiture.

Both if Hoid Simply Need some DnD's Investiture or He Need tons of Energy for something specific...Becoming an Elantrian would solve both.

He also managed to gather something that would grant him more flexibility over Selish magics

[Steelheart]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

Well becoming an Elantrian would gift Hoid with an Infinite High plasmabile amount of Investiture.

Both if Hoid Simply Need some DnD's Investiture or He Need tons of Energy for something specific...Becoming an Elantrian would solve both.

He also managed to gather something that would grant him more flexibility over Selish magics

But how are the Skaze involved?

[Yata he/him]

11 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

But how are the Skaze involved?

Honestly I don't know, but a single Elantrian could provide Almost everything to every kind of agenda.

If the Skaze were planning to craft an Ally Elantrian, the try to destroy all' he oher actual and potential Elantrians could be a try to gain the supremancy over the AonDor.

Of course the idea has some great problem

[ArmbarBanker]

Thank you!

 

[Dawnshard]

I wonder. We all kind of assume that Hoid is on his own. We see him alone all the time and he seems to be chased wherever he goes. I wonder if he has hidden allies. Ones that we have overlooked. After all even the 17th shard appears to have unexpected friends. Maybe we should look to see if Hoid does as well.

[Steelheart]

5 hours ago, Dawnshard said:

I wonder. We all kind of assume that Hoid is on his own. We see him alone all the time and he seems to be chased wherever he goes. I wonder if he has hidden allies. Ones that we have overlooked. After all even the 17th shard appears to have unexpected friends. Maybe we should look to see if Hoid does as well.

There's a WoB somewhere that the 17th Shard is chasing Hoid. At the very least, they don't like what he is doing (ie. meddling with events)

[Steelheart]

10 hours ago, FiveLate said:

the light seemed to ascend high into the sky, to the Unknown God’s domain itself

On a separate note, is the Unknown God different from the God Beyond? First I've heard of him, but the God Beyond has been mentioned a bunch of times before....

This is especially interesting since Sel has no Shard to which it could be referring - they are both dead and no one on Sel seems to worship them (as opposed to Roshar or even Scadrial) 

[Yata he/him]

21 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

On a separate note, is the Unknown God different from the God Beyond? First I've heard of him, but the God Beyond has been mentioned a bunch of times before....

This is especially interesting since Sel has no Shard to which it could be referring - they are both dead and no one on Sel seems to worship them (as opposed to Roshar or even Scadrial) 

They are two names for the same concept/being:

Quote

WINDRUNNER17 ()

Shai refers to an Unknown God, is this at all related to the rocks that fell from the sky that Shai's ancestors carved?

BRANDON SANDERSON

For her people, there is a relationship. But watch for mentions of the God Beyond in the books. There is more here.

If I don't remember wrong there is a WoB (or in the Annotations) somewhere about what the people refer when they say "God Beyond". It's more a philosophical thing, like referring to an actual natural god and not to a mortal with divine powers (like the Shards are).

[Steelheart]

Just now, Yata said:

They are two names for the same concept/being:

If I don't remember wrong there is a WoB (or in the Annotations) somewhere about what the people refer when they say "God Beyond". It's more a philosophical thing, like referring to an actual natural god and not to a mortal with divine powers (like the Shards are).

Thanks for the source!

Yup - you're right! Sanderson already talked about it 

(From AoL Annotations, Chapter 10)

"The other little worldbuilding item of note here is the idea of what Wayne calls the “God Beyond,” which is an idea that has begun to creep into society, the idea that there is a greater God of the universe beyond people like Harmony or Kelsier. It’s somewhat analogous to some of the Gnostic beliefs in early Christianity."

[Ciridae]

Do we know where Elantris and The Emperor's Soul are compared to each other in the timeline?

Hoid stole the moon sceptre, which implies he has access to one of the magic systems and wants to, for lack of a better word, translate between one and another. All magic systems on Sel are based on nationality, which I assume translates into something having to do with Identity or Connection. If he figured out how to access one of the systems he should be able to use the same method to gain access to the others. If I were Hoid I would figure out how to gain access to the system with the highest output of investiture, presumably AonDor, and instead of repeating the initiation process for each system just steal a translator, which is what I think he did. If there are no issues with the timeline, and unless he just stole the moon sceptre as a souvenir from the Rose Empire, Hoid may already be an Elantrian. 

If the Rose Empire is far enough away from Elantris nobody would have noticed any physical tells, and closer to Elantris I'm sure he could use lightweaving to hide them, if he even cared to do so. Off-world he wouldn't need to, as Galadon demonstrates.

[Steelheart]

6 hours ago, Ciridae said:

Do we know where Elantris and The Emperor's Soul are compared to each other in the timeline?

Hoid stole the moon sceptre, which implies he has access to one of the magic systems and wants to, for lack of a better word, translate between one and another. All magic systems on Sel are based on nationality, which I assume translates into something having to do with Identity or Connection. If he figured out how to access one of the systems he should be able to use the same method to gain access to the others. If I were Hoid I would figure out how to gain access to the system with the highest output of investiture, presumably AonDor, and instead of repeating the initiation process for each system just steal a translator, which is what I think he did. If there are no issues with the timeline, and unless he just stole the moon sceptre as a souvenir from the Rose Empire, Hoid may already be an Elantrian. 

If the Rose Empire is far enough away from Elantris nobody would have noticed any physical tells, and closer to Elantris I'm sure he could use lightweaving to hide them, if he even cared to do so. Off-world he wouldn't need to, as Galadon demonstrates.

I believe it takes place 30 years after Elantris 

What makes you think Hoid stealing the scepter means he received access to one of the magic systems? he stole a scepter - that doesn't require any special magical skills. 

[Ciridae]

7 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

I believe it takes place 30 years after Elantris 

What makes you think Hoid stealing the scepter means he received access to one of the magic systems? he stole a scepter - that doesn't require any special magical skills. 

Brandon has said that the sceptre functions as a sort of Rosetta Stone for the different magics on Sel. As far as I know we don't really know how it works, but I imagine that it is able to use one magic system to fuel another. But the sceptre is useless unless you have access to one type of Selish investiture in the first place. 

[Steelheart]

3 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

Brandon has said that the sceptre functions as a sort of Rosetta Stone for the different magics on Sel. As far as I know we don't really know how it works, but I imagine that it is able to use one magic system to fuel another. But the sceptre is useless unless you have access to one type of Selish investiture in the first place. 

....or if you can tap a Durlaminmind to make an artificial Connection to the land. Which we already know he can 

[Ciridae]

4 hours ago, Steelheart said:

....or if you can tap a Durlaminmind to make an artificial Connection to the land. Which we already know he can 

Do we know that he could at the time of TES? I agree that that's what Hoid might try during the AoL era, but as the chapter above shows, back then Hoid was still trying to figure out the details of the various magic systems and was very experimental. Thirty years after Elantris Hoid has probably figured out a lot more, but surely not as much as he has hundreds of years later. I'd say stealing an artifact that allows one magic system to fuel another is a pretty good indication that you have access to at least one system. What else would be the point? Since then he has probably found more efficient ways, I agree, but at the time I can't think of another reason for him to steal it unless he wanted to use it.

About the mechanics of the medallion itself, I'm no expert, but I think simply tapping Connection wouldn't be enough. Allik still has an accent and explains that he would still be Southern Scadrian but the Connection tricks him into believing he was raised in the Elendel basin. It's been a while so please correct me if I'm misremembering, but to gain access to a Selish magic system you have to be born in the appropriate nation. I'm sure there is an Identity aspect involved and I don't think you can tap someone else's Identity. By definition unsealed metalminds are made by Identity-less ferrings. Maybe tapping Connection while storing all your Identity coukd do the trick. I may be wrong, and Connection might be enough, but I don't think we can say for sure just yet.

[Djarskublar he/him]

He could have stolen the scepter for several reasons.

1. Keep it out of someone else's hands.

2. Experiment with it to see what he can get it to do.

3. As you said, use one Selish system he already has to power another.

4. Opportunism. It may have been a convenient time to steal it, and he knows it might come in handy once he has figured things out.

Basically, him stealing it doesn't tell us much. It would be nice if it did, but it doesn't really.

To bring this back on topic, I think Hoid does have some allies. Or at least people he can go to for aid that won't turn him in to the 17th Shard. He apparently was involved in founding some of the knowledge preserving organizations on some planets. For example, the Worldsingers.

Now, as to whether he has a crew of people specifically working with him, Kelsier style, has yet to be seen. It is a possibility I hadn't considered before, so thanks for pointing it out.

[Calderis he/him]

36 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

Do we know that he could at the time of TES? I agree that that's what Hoid might try during the AoL era, but as the chapter above shows, back then Hoid was still trying to figure out the details of the various magic systems and was very experimental. Thirty years after Elantris Hoid has probably figured out a lot more, but surely not as much as he has hundreds of years later. I'd say stealing an artifact that allows one magic system to fuel another is a pretty good indication that you have access to at least one system. What else would be the point? Since then he has probably found more efficient ways, I agree, but at the time I can't think of another reason for him to steal it unless he wanted to use it.

About the mechanics of the medallion itself, I'm no expert, but I think simply tapping Connection wouldn't be enough. Allik still has an accent and explains that he would still be Southern Scadrian but the Connection tricks him into believing he was raised in the Elendel basin. It's been a while so please correct me if I'm misremembering, but to gain access to a Selish magic system you have to be born in the appropriate nation. I'm sure there is an Identity aspect involved and I don't think you can tap someone else's Identity. By definition unsealed metalminds are made by Identity-less ferrings. Maybe tapping Connection while storing all your Identity coukd do the trick. I may be wrong, and Connection might be enough, but I don't think we can say for sure just yet.

The annotations for Elantris make it clear that it's a matter of connection due to genetics. That's why the people of Teod can be taken by the Shaod, but only if they are in Arelon at the time. The Teo(Teodish?) people are descendants of Arelon.

I think this may actually be a purely genetic issue as well, and not SDNA as per most magics, because of the Cognitive/location dependant nature of the Dor. 

[+hwiles]

7 hours ago, Ciridae said:

Brandon has said that the sceptre functions as a sort of Rosetta Stone for the different magics on Sel. As far as I know we don't really know how it works, but I imagine that it is able to use one magic system to fuel another. But the sceptre is useless unless you have access to one type of Selish investiture in the first place. 

DISCLAIMER: This is technically still speculation:

Sanderson doesn't state it outright, but my understanding of the subtext was that the Scepter is an Elantrian construct.  It allows for the translation of magical symbols on Sel, which I took to mean that it would be useful for allowing an Elantrian to use their magic outside of their home region.  IE: because the Dor can only escape to the physical realm in certain shapes, frequencies, and pulses, which are determined on a regional basis, an Elantrian's Aons can't function too far from Elantris.  But theoretically, the scepter would allow an Elantrian to draw their magical equation in aons, and have it function in a region that uses soul-stamps by translating their aons into the correct regional symbolic language.  The process may also work in reverse.

By studying the underlying mechanism of the Scepter's technology, which appears to manipulate how the Dor interacts with and enters the physical realm to initiate Selish Investiture in a fundamental way, Hoid should be able to develop an understanding of the exact physics of the Dor, and thereby figure out if and how he could become an Elantrian.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

5 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Sanderson doesn't state it outright, but my understanding of the subtext was that the Scepter is an Elantrian construct.

Here's the post in question:

Quote

3) In what way is the Moon Sceptre linked to the Dor?

Brandon - I think we can canonise this. So the Moon Sceptre-...so the sceptre is kinda like the Rosetta Stone. You can use it to translate the symbols from one system to the symbols of another and can use it to understand their meaning (paraphrased a bit, but simply put Moon Sceptre = Seliash/Selian Investiture Rosetta Stone) Almost thought I was going to get RAFO'd but I didn't

We can argue what portion is paraphrased for the outright-ness of "Rosetta Stone" till the end of time. But I'll be honest and say that I didn't see any subtext implying it's an Elantrian construct

Edited June 9, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[+hwiles]

Thanks! So part of my understanding comes from how Elantrians built devices utilizing their magic in a somewhat mechanical or scientific nature, combined with how teleportation aons can be drawn in elantris to send people to distant places. I'll try to produce a more rigorous argument later, as I'm mobile at the moment.

[Steelheart]

On 6/9/2017 at 5:16 PM, Ciridae said:

Do we know that he could at the time of TES?

He may not have had Allomancy then, but we have WoBs that Hoid uses Feruchemy to know where to be. Since it's unlikely that he discovered Unkeyed Metalminds back then, I'd assume he has attained Ferchemy some other way (similar to how he attains Allomancy via Lerasium). (IIRC there is a WoB to that extent)

As @Djarskublar already said, Hoid stealing the scepter doesn't tell us much. My guess is that he wanted to experiment with it - if he can't be an Elantrian, maybe he can still manipulate the Dor another way. 

On 6/9/2017 at 7:40 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Here's the post in question:

Quote

3) In what way is the Moon Sceptre linked to the Dor?

Brandon - I think we can canonise this. So the Moon Sceptre-...so the sceptre is kinda like the Rosetta Stone. You can use it to translate the symbols from one system to the symbols of another and can use it to understand their meaning (paraphrased a bit, but simply put Moon Sceptre = Seliash/Selian Investiture Rosetta Stone) Almost thought I was going to get RAFO'd but I didn't

This n=makes it sound as if it may function similar to how some people view Feruchemical nicrosil - a bridge between different magic systems. Nowhere in the quote does he specify that you need one of the Selish magic systems to operate the Sceptre. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

9 hours ago, Steelheart said:

He may not have had Allomancy then, but we have WoBs that Hoid uses Feruchemy to know where to be. Since it's unlikely that he discovered Unkeyed Metalminds back then, I'd assume he has attained Ferchemy some other way (similar to how he attains Allomancy via Lerasium). (IIRC there is a WoB to that extent)

As @Djarskublar already said, Hoid stealing the scepter doesn't tell us much. My guess is that he wanted to experiment with it - if he can't be an Elantrian, maybe he can still manipulate the Dor another way. 

This n=makes it sound as if it may function similar to how some people view Feruchemical nicrosil - a bridge between different magic systems. Nowhere in the quote does he specify that you need one of the Selish magic systems to operate the Sceptre. 

He doesn't use feruchemy to know where to go. He uses something similar to storing luck, but it's different. He DOES have unkeyed metalminds. But that's not how he does stuff. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

16 hours ago, Steelheart said:

He may not have had Allomancy then, but we have WoBs that Hoid uses Feruchemy to know where to be. Since it's unlikely that he discovered Unkeyed Metalminds back then, I'd assume he has attained Ferchemy some other way (similar to how he attains Allomancy via Lerasium). (IIRC there is a WoB to that extent)

You'd be surprised how much of that is actually just widely accepted assumptions(I was the first time someone did this to me)

• He did not have Allomancy back then, because he took the Lerasium b/c he wanted to be an Allomancer, and Elantris takes place sometime in the 400 years before TLR ascended and made TFE.
• As Flash said, we have a more recent(and non-paraphrased) WoB that he uses something on the same underlying principle that F-Chromium operates on.

  Quote

  Question

  You've mentioned before that Hoid ends up where he needs to be.

  Brandon Sanderson

  Yes, and usually without knowing why.

  Question

  Is Chromium involved in that?

  Brandon Sanderson

  Yes. Well, he's not necessarily using Chromium, but the underlying mechanic, yes.

• We do not know for sure if he attained Allomancy via the Lerasium (Every single WoB on the subject dodges the question via "originally, was his goal, if, etc..")

  Quote

  Herowannabe

  Would you answer if Hoid used it for Feruchemy?

  Brandon Sanderson

  His bead? Hoid’s bead was—He originally got it because he wanted to be an Allomancer. [Note that he doesn’t actually answer the question.]

  Quote

  Question

  Is Wit/Hoid an Allomancer?

  Brandon Sanderson

  He did steal a bead of Lerasium off of Scadrial. If he were to make use of that bead, certain powers would have been gained.

  Quote

  Question

  Has Hoid used his Lerasium Bead for Feruchemy?

  Brandon Sanderson

  Hoid got the bead originally because he wanted to become an Allomancer.

  Footnote

  BWS has stated elsewhere that Hoid has not used his Lerasium bead.

  Quote

  Question

  When Hoid took the bead of Lerasium, did he actually eat it or did he just hang on to it?

  Brandon Sanderson

  You have seen him use Allomancy in other books, so… that’s your answer.

  He never explicitly states it, so we've been in a bind for a while.