That Duel

[Kersplattle]

One thing that has always puzzled me a little, is that more is not made of the last duel where Kaladin goes into the arena to help and succeeds in fighting several shard bearers although without any shards himself. He is duelling with two of them at one point is he not ?

It always struck me that this should have been a huge sensation, in that society Shardbearers were almost unbeatable by non-shardbearers under any circumstances. And here's a dark-eyes with just a spear fighting, and winning. Actually, for part of the fight, with just the haft of a spear.

Even though Kaladin is imprisoned at the end of the duel for his presumption in challenging Amaram, his performance should have been the absolute talk of the camps. There seems to be little of that afterwards, little recognition about just how extraordinary his performance was and how it potentially upsets a lot of presumptionS.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, Kersplattle said:

There seems to be little of that afterwards, little recognition about just how extraordinary his performance was and how it potentially upsets a lot of presumptions.

Most of what the darkeyes heard was probably the noblility gossiping loudly about it, and the lighteyes could easily have been more preoccupied with the spectacle of Adolin pulling a solid 4v1 then 3v1 for most of the fight than some lowly spearman.

[+Extesian he/him]

I agree @Kersplattle, i understand that for narrative reasons that couldn't be the time everyone realizes Kaladin is a ninja-wizard but I always thought that strained credibility, far more than even him single handedly fighting a Parshendi army (where you could argue people didn't really see him properly). I actually think it's the least plausible part of the books so far, even though there are explanations for it. 

[muco]

That's because we don't get the POV of many others to gauge the impact.

BUT it did have huge impact. Three scenes explain this.

1. Dalinar running to meet Kaladin when he comes out of the chasm alive and their "talk". That's how highly even Dalinar, one of the greatest Alethi warriors viewed Kaladin.

2. Elokthar's interactions with Kaladin towards the end of the book before the assassination attempt. Even the king held Kaladin in high regard.

3. Taravangian was keeping a close look at Kaladin. This much was inferred right at the end of the book.

 

There were genuine suspicions abt Kaladin but then radiants were not something "normal people" were probably thinking off. So, expect for few who knew what to look for in Kaladin, everyone else probably took him for a great warrior. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Kersplattle said:

One thing that has always puzzled me a little, is that more is not made of the last duel where Kaladin goes into the arena to help and succeeds in fighting several shard bearers although without any shards himself. He is duelling with two of them at one point is he not ?

It always struck me that this should have been a huge sensation, in that society Shardbearers were almost unbeatable by non-shardbearers under any circumstances. And here's a dark-eyes with just a spear fighting, and winning. Actually, for part of the fight, with just the haft of a spear.

Even though Kaladin is imprisoned at the end of the duel for his presumption in challenging Amaram, his performance should have been the absolute talk of the camps. There seems to be little of that afterwards, little recognition about just how extraordinary his performance was and how it potentially upsets a lot of presumptionS.

Nobody was looking at him: all eyes were on Adolin and as far as anyone could tell, all Kaladin did was finish up Shardbearers who's Plates have already been weakened by Adolin. We know he did much more than that, but viewers may not have been able to gauge it properly. Also, Kaladin never fought two, only one at a time: Adolin still did most of the work fighting against 4 and 3 and 2. He was the spectacle: even Kaladin allowed himself to be awed by his fighting, so this is enough to justify why nobody further questioned Kaladin's involvement. 

[retrorocket1]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Kaladin never fought two, only one at a time:

hmm, I felt sure kaladin fought two at a time for a short while.

[Yata he/him]

We have Sadeas' PoV in the duel. We could assume his view is common about the Lighteyes.

He thinks Adolin did all' the work, Kal was Just a good fighter that cover Adolin's back and exploit the advantages Adolin provided.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Yata

[Jace21 he/him]

Kaladin definitely fought 2 at once. I'm not sure how to quote the books here but he is fighting Jakamav and Relis and the same time, which stops when Adolin jumps on Jakamav and Relis runs for Renarin.

As for why the general public didnt seem to care, I expect its because apart from some strikes where the plate was already gone/weakened all he did was distract and dodge. From their point of view it showed skill, but was hardly spectacular.

[geralt]

1 hour ago, Jace21 said:

Kaladin definitely fought 2 at once. I'm not sure how to quote the books here but he is fighting Jakamav and Relis and the same time, which stops when Adolin jumps on Jakamav and Relis runs for Renarin.

As for why the general public didnt seem to care, I expect its because apart from some strikes where the plate was already gone/weakened all he did was distract and dodge. From their point of view it showed skill, but was hardly spectacular.

Here's the quote (which is one of my favourite parts of the whole book btw):

Green Plate attacked Kaladin again, who deflected the blow off the helm, which cracked and began leaking Stormlight. Relis came charging up on the other side, but didn’t join the fight against Adolin— instead, he thrust at Kaladin. Kaladin gritted his teeth, dodging to the side, feeling the Blade pass in the air. He had to buy Adolin time. Moments. He needed moments. The wind began to blow around him. Syl returned to him, zipping through the air as a ribbon of light. Kaladin ducked another blow, then slammed his improvised shield against the Blade of the other, throwing it back. Sand flew as Kaladin leaped back, a Shardblade biting the ground before him.
Wind. Motion. Kaladin fought two Shardbearers at once, knocking their Blades aside with the helm. He couldn’t attack—didn’t dare try to attack. He could only survive, and in this, the winds seemed to urge him.
Instinct . . . then something deeper . . . guided his steps. He danced between those Blades, cool air wrapping around him. And for a moment, he felt—impossibly—that he could have dodged just as well
if his eyes had been closed.
The Shardbearers cursed, trying again and again. Kaladin heard the judge say something, but was too absorbed in the fight to pay attention. The crowd was growing louder. He leaped one attack, then stepped just to the side of another. You could not kill the wind. You could not stop it. It was beyond the touch of men. It was infinite. . . .
His Stormlight ran out.

 

 

Anyways, when Elhokar comes to visit Kaladin in his barrack  it is implied that he actually did gather attention. We just didn't see that immediately after the aftermath of the duel because Kaladin is imprisoned and we don't get any Bridge 4 point of views. Either way, though, I think it was clear Adolin stole the show during the duel, so Kaladin's feat was most likely underestimated. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by geralt

[StormblessDave]

And by the way,a non shard bearer beating a shard bearer was not something unheard of,of course,it was very rare,but not impossible,however I think the main reason That wasn't talked about so much was because of Kaladins accusation about Amaram,that would have incited a lot of gossip and held people's attention.

[Kersplattle]

This was of course in the process of a re-read. But I think people are still under estimating what happened. Sure Adolin fought several, all 4 at one point, but we've seen battle scenes of what happens when non-shardbearers come up against a shardbearer, they basically die, lots of them do.

So for one man to go in and not just survive but fight two shardbearers at once at one point, is as I see it just unheard of and should have started a lot of interesting conversations to say the least.

Elkohar already basically "liked" Kaladin, remember the "I like the way this one thinks...." when Kaladin meets him for the first time. And the duel against "He assassin in white". Dali are suspects he's a proto-radiant, maybe the idea of that is just too far fetched for others to think along the same lines. Or maybe the rather ambivalent memories of the knights gets in the way.

Hard to know, be interesting to ask Brandon what the aftermath of that duel was, in a way we don't get much of it because Kaladin was locked away.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I think the official explanation is that lighteyes don't even see darkeyes unless they need them for something, so like was said above they ignroed him and focused on Adolin.

But I agree this is one of the biggest gaps in the books that stretch the limits of plausability, doing what Kaladin did in the arena would have been a  huge feat for any full shardbearer. Add in that there was already a lot of talk about Kal due to the tower rescue and been the first darkeyed captain ever, and I find it hard to believe that people did not just go catatonic with shock that a man with a wood stick walked into a fight with 6 shardbearers in the mix, knocked out two and walked it off.

[Jace21 he/him]

I see what everyone is saying.

When I first read that scene it never bothered me, after all Adolin did the "hard work", its not as if Kal actually had to break the armor of the two he beat. (the lighteyes opinion, not mine)

But there should still have been more chatter. Maybe there was but due to various reasons already stated, Kal in prison, no bridge 4 PoV etc we just missed it.

[CJ Feboris]

It is certainly alluded to as mentioned by @muco but it is not overt. I think that some of the Adolin lovers may be downplaying the awe-inspiring nature of the fight for a Darkeyes and I think the original question is quite legitimate. It might be on the cutting room floor to keep the story moving since it is already quite long. I think it would have caused quite a stir, but we don't get much of a PoV during that timeframe except from Shallan who is stalking the Ghostbloods and Kaladin self-hating in prison, that is the movement in the story. We don't even get any Dalinar PoV since he is bonding the new shardblade at the time. There is the initial Dalinar PoV when he is talking to Elokhar and trying to talk some sense into him. There is quite a bit of praise from Dalinar at that point. For completeness Sadeas does have a small part, but he is just concerned about his own skin. It would have been nice to see the warcamp's reaction to the duel, but it does not overly detract from the story.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Jace21 said:

Kaladin definitely fought 2 at once. I'm not sure how to quote the books here but he is fighting Jakamav and Relis and the same time, which stops when Adolin jumps on Jakamav and Relis runs for Renarin.

As for why the general public didnt seem to care, I expect its because apart from some strikes where the plate was already gone/weakened all he did was distract and dodge. From their point of view it showed skill, but was hardly spectacular.

Ah sorry. My mistake then.

4 hours ago, CJ Feboris said:

I think that some of the Adolin lovers may be downplaying the awe-inspiring nature of the fight for a Darkeyes and I think the original question is quite legitimate.

Just as the Kaladin lovers are over-playing what it might have looked like from an above eye just as they are down-playing the crowd magnet which is Adolin fighting multiple Shardbearers 

Truth is, this isn't about Kaladin nor Adolin lovers, this is about what your average Alethi would have perceived within the scene and while Kaladin is the main protagonist of the story, to your average Alethi, Adolin is the important guy. He's the one they came to see fight which is why all eyes were on him and fight he did. Ever heard of the Invincible Gorilla? It is a scientific experience on how people asked to focus on a sports game completely miss the black dancing gorilla who jumps into the arena... I believe the same applies here: everyone was focused on Adolin, they didn't notice Kaladin nor did they pay attention to what he did. 

For my part, I find the scene very plausible: people often won't notice the obvious if they aren't looking out for it. To the average Alethi, Adolin was the awe-inspiring fighter, not Kaladin, hence they aren't abundantly talking about it. It is stated how duels for Shards are only fought once every few years and right here and there, Adolin had just won an insane number of Shards within nothing more than a few weeks. Within their world, this is probably more impressive than Kaladin dodging a few blows providing they were even looking at him when he did so. I would even wager most of the attention Kaladin got was from his boon and not his fight, but we haven't been privy to this side of the story.

Now, this does not mean there weren't those who noticed Kaladin, especially among the darkeyed spectators, but I feel the reason why no big deal was made out of it merely is most people just weren't paying attention to him.

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

18 hours ago, maxal said:

Ever heard of the Invincible Gorilla?

That's one scary primape!

Edited May 31, 2017 by Crucible of Shards

[CJ Feboris]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 5:18 PM, maxal said:

Ah sorry. My mistake then.

Just as the Kaladin lovers are over-playing what it might have looked like from an above eye just as they are down-playing the crowd magnet which is Adolin fighting multiple Shardbearers 

Truth is, this isn't about Kaladin nor Adolin lovers, this is about what your average Alethi would have perceived within the scene and while Kaladin is the main protagonist of the story, to your average Alethi, Adolin is the important guy. He's the one they came to see fight which is why all eyes were on him and fight he did. Ever heard of the Invincible Gorilla? It is a scientific experience on how people asked to focus on a sports game completely miss the black dancing gorilla who jumps into the arena... I believe the same applies here: everyone was focused on Adolin, they didn't notice Kaladin nor did they pay attention to what he did. 

For my part, I find the scene very plausible: people often won't notice the obvious if they aren't looking out for it. To the average Alethi, Adolin was the awe-inspiring fighter, not Kaladin, hence they aren't abundantly talking about it. It is stated how duels for Shards are only fought once every few years and right here and there, Adolin had just won an insane number of Shards within nothing more than a few weeks. Within their world, this is probably more impressive than Kaladin dodging a few blows providing they were even looking at him when he did so. I would even wager most of the attention Kaladin got was from his boon and not his fight, but we haven't been privy to this side of the story.

Now, this does not mean there weren't those who noticed Kaladin, especially among the darkeyed spectators, but I feel the reason why no big deal was made out of it merely is most people just weren't paying attention to him.

I don' disagree that Adolin was the man in Alethi society, which is why I think that Kaladin would have made a bigger stir in the arena. The fact that darkeyes were not normally even permitted in the dueling arena paired with the fact that they were only recently allowed to watch the bouts at all indicates that a darkeyes fighting in the arena would have been cause for scandal among the lighteyes and triumph or scandal among the darkeyes depending on their take on the whole situation. Yes Adolin was the star of that show until Kaladin jumped down to defend him with a spear that would do less than nothing against a shardblade, but after his descent, he would have caused quite a stir, I'm actually surprised that it did not violate the dueling conventions somehow. The noteworthiness of Kaladin's entrance was not his fighting prowess, but the fact that he was there at all. The fact that he did not die in the process gives strength to the argument because now he was able to turn the tide of the brutality intended toward Adolin and help him eek out victory. Just my $0.02.

[retrorocket1]

Were was it stated that darkeyes weren't allowed in the arena or that they had only recently been allowed to watch?

[Guest]

On 5/31/2017 at 2:00 PM, Crucible of Shards said:

That's one scary primape!

Oh I meant the invisible gorilla  Google it, it was really done.

On 5/31/2017 at 8:15 PM, CJ Feboris said:

I don' disagree that Adolin was the man in Alethi society, which is why I think that Kaladin would have made a bigger stir in the arena. The fact that darkeyes were not normally even permitted in the dueling arena paired with the fact that they were only recently allowed to watch the bouts at all indicates that a darkeyes fighting in the arena would have been cause for scandal among the lighteyes and triumph or scandal among the darkeyes depending on their take on the whole situation. Yes Adolin was the star of that show until Kaladin jumped down to defend him with a spear that would do less than nothing against a shardblade, but after his descent, he would have caused quite a stir, I'm actually surprised that it did not violate the dueling conventions somehow. The noteworthiness of Kaladin's entrance was not his fighting prowess, but the fact that he was there at all. The fact that he did not die in the process gives strength to the argument because now he was able to turn the tide of the brutality intended toward Adolin and help him eek out victory. Just my $0.02.

Not necessarily... Kaladin only jumps into the arena after Dalinar pleaded to someone, anyone to go fight with his sons. It was only after it become obvious nobody would risk themselves to help the Kholin boys that Kaladin intervened. Also, Kaladin is Dalinar's head guard. After everyone able to help refused to do so, it may be all merely assumed Dalinar sent in his main guard. After all, Adolin always fights with his guards, they never leave him onto the battlefield, they aren't supposed to leave him, thus it becomes entirely plausible for Kaladin to be the last resort, the last available help. Thus, I still think it plausible nobody made a big deal out of it. His task is to protect Adolin and when all other options were vacated, he became it.

8 hours ago, retrorocket1 said:

Were was it stated that darkeyes weren't allowed in the arena or that they had only recently been allowed to watch?

If my recollection is correct, Elhokar allowed the darkeyes to watch. Nothing is ever said about them being forbidden to enter the arena, but I would argue the 4 on 1 duel was abnormal as it was, a darkeyed guard jumping in to protect his prince might not have been what impressed the people the most.

[Krandacth]

13 hours ago, retrorocket1 said:

Were was it stated that darkeyes weren't allowed in the arena or that they had only recently been allowed to watch?

As @maxal said, It was stated that Elhokar allowed them to watch, meaning they weren't allowed before, and putting the transition in the last six years. I'm inclined to think it was even more recent, as there is a point in WoR where Adolin considers how he is glad that Elhokar let the darkeyes watch because the noise they made was more like that of battle than the silence that the lighteyes would hold to; he goes on to think about how he used to like dueling more than battle because of that silence, and muses on how he has, without realising, become a soldier. As he talked about preferring the quiet of dueling to the noise of battle in WoK, I assume that Elhokar only started letting the darkeyes watch very recently.

 

On 2017-5-30 at 7:22 PM, CJ Feboris said:

 @muco (sorry, can't get rid of this tag on mobile...)

... We don't even get any Dalinar PoV since he is bonding the new shardblade at the time. There is the initial Dalinar PoV when he is talking to Elokhar and trying to talk some sense into him. There is quite a bit of praise from Dalinar at that point.

Actually, I think Dalinar spending a week bonding that Blade is the biggest reaction we see. Remember that just before this sequence of events, Dalinar tells Kaladin that he is "just plain wrong" about Amaram. As a result of the duel, the man then embarks on a massive ruse to actively trap Amaram, a Shardbearer and old friend, in the lie Kaladin has been accusing him of. If that isn't recognition, I don't know what is.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Dalinar is not the average Alethi in any way shape or form. He believes in equality to an extent, he thinks highly of Kaladin and he trusts his instincts. And although not openly said the duel is probably when he started suspecting Kal was a radiant.

Edited June 2, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard