Calderis he/him Posted May 22, 2017 Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) Could Autonomy be acting out against Harmony specifically because his first acts as a Shard were to remake the world, erase the biological differences between Skaa and Noble, and make an environment that destroyed the need of the Elendel basin to advance. Harmony removed incentive for technological growth and lowered the needs of the people the basin from needing Autonomy from the gifts of their worlds shard. Could Bavadin/Autonomy see this as making them dependent/subservient, and thus require her intervention? Edited May 22, 2017 by Calderis 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezzik Posted May 22, 2017 Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 I thought this topic was going to be about Bavadin's tomatoes, or roses, or perhaps grapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted May 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, john203 said: I thought this topic was going to be about Bavadin's tomatoes, or roses, or perhaps grapes. Stupid Autocorrect. Fixed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezzik Posted May 22, 2017 Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 While I have no problem with trell/autonomy, my money is on trell/ambition, with some help from autonomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted May 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 45 minutes ago, john203 said: While I have no problem with trell/autonomy, my money is on trell/ambition, with some help from autonomy. But Ambition is splintered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn radiant Posted May 22, 2017 Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 I am strongly with the group that says trell is autonomy. I mean entire point of shadows of self - that is the major theme - is how much harmony controls people in various ways. Or how little he controls people. How much of a puppet master he is. How much weak Kandra are to harmony. And what does trellium grant the kandra? Freedom from Harmony. AUTONOMY! What does that kandra want to do? Free the people of elendel from Haromny and grant them what? AUTONOMY! So yeah, Harmony's absolute control over Kandra and how much he intereferes with others' lives goes directly against Autonomy. Hence I think it is autonomy! Also, I don't think it is ambition cuz he is splintered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian he/him Posted May 23, 2017 Report Share Posted May 23, 2017 It's not a bad thought. I personally believe that Bavadin has circumvented Autonomy's Intent and uses it as a means of increasing her power, is not enslaved by it. I suspect the apparently sudden interest in Scadrial is to stop Harmony becoming and remaining too powerful while he's still learning his way, and that the idea of autonomy is being leveraged to get a religious foothold into Scadrial. So yeah I think what you've said is very possible but for me it's an excuse for Bavadin to move against a dangerous adversary rather than the situation compelling Autonomy to act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted May 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2017 22 minutes ago, Extesian said: It's not a bad thought. I personally believe that Bavadin has circumvented Autonomy's Intent and uses it as a means of increasing her power, is not enslaved by it. I suspect the apparently sudden interest in Scadrial is to stop Harmony becoming and remaining too powerful while he's still learning his way, and that the idea of autonomy is being leveraged to get a religious foothold into Scadrial. So yeah I think what you've said is very possible but for me it's an excuse for Bavadin to move against a dangerous adversary rather than the situation compelling Autonomy to act. While I personally think that Autonomy is the Shard with the most wiggle room for its Vessel, I'm not sure it's possible to completely circumvent the intent. Brandon has said that the pressure (not sure if that's the right word) of the intent becomes stronger over time and the better aligned with that intent the easier it is to maintain their personality (see Rayse/Odium vs the complete subjugation of Ati/Ruin). While I think that wiggle room gives Bavadin a LOT of free reign, and she was likely independent and therefore well aligned with her Shard, I don't think that it's possible to have completely sidestep the Shards intent, especially after millenia holding it. I do think she's trying to do exactly what you say, but I think she needs the pretense provided by circumstance in order to achieve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian he/him Posted May 23, 2017 Report Share Posted May 23, 2017 Yeah @Calderis I'd thought for a long time that it's impossible to fight am Intent forever, but then I saw this Quote Q: You've mentioned that a person's personality eventually erodes and is replaced by the will of the shard they hold. Besides Harmony, are there any Shards holders that are still actively and significantly defying the intent of their shard? A: Yes. Q: Is Harmony (Szeth, for instance) actively trying to fight against it's shard intent? A: Its intent(s) match Sazed very well, actually, and he has the philosophy that these natural powers are best minded and not dominated. So while he pushes back against the inaction holding both of them has caused, he appreciates and understands the need for both. I'd say he has less "push back" than some others. So I believe Bavadin is still fighting after 6000 years. She may succumb eventually but that WoB changed a few things in my mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted May 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2017 @Extesian I see what you're saying but I just can't agree. I put some thought into it before replying, and here's my reasoning. In that WoB he says that Sazed feels less pushback than other Shards because of his views of the nature of those two forces. In others, he's said that Sazed finds it very difficult to act due to the opposition of his dual intents. If someone who aligns well with his Shards still feels a significant pushback, I think Bavadin would as well. And if the pressure does increase over time, and Sazed feels a significant level of pushback after 300 years, despite being well aligned with his intents... No matter how well Bavadin's personality compliments Autonomy, I believe after 6000 years that intent at the very least requires some level of appeasement for Bavadin to act. In addition, I love the irony of Bavadin slowly being more and more chained by the needs of Autonomy's intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian he/him Posted May 23, 2017 Report Share Posted May 23, 2017 3 hours ago, Calderis said: @Extesian I see what you're saying but I just can't agree. I put some thought into it before replying, and here's my reasoning. In that WoB he says that Sazed feels less pushback than other Shards because of his views of the nature of those two forces. In others, he's said that Sazed finds it very difficult to act due to the opposition of his dual intents. If someone who aligns well with his Shards still feels a significant pushback, I think Bavadin would as well. And if the pressure does increase over time, and Sazed feels a significant level of pushback after 300 years, despite being well aligned with his intents... No matter how well Bavadin's personality compliments Autonomy, I believe after 6000 years that intent at the very least requires some level of appeasement for Bavadin to act. In addition, I love the irony of Bavadin slowly being more and more chained by the needs of Autonomy's intent. I get that Calderis, but who would your candidate(s) be for Shard other than Harmony that is actively and significantly denying the intent of their Shard? I mean it could be anyone of course, but if the time-frame is the problem with it being Bavadin, the only alternative is a Shard that was taken up by a new Vessel more recently (ie has changed hands since the Shattering). That's certainly possible, but until we have some options to speculate about, knowing at least one Shard other than Harmony is fighting their Intent, and knowing that Bavadin acts in some ways that are hard to reconcile with her Shard's intent makes her my top candidates. And besides, while 6000 years is a long time to maintain will-power, Taln fought torture for 4000 Though I do think other Shards have changed hands since the Shattering so that remains a live option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted May 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2017 @Extesian maybe I misunderstood. I don't disagree with anything you just said. I fully think that Bavadin is the most free of the Original Vessels. I don't believe it's possible to fully circumvent the shardic intent though. Between the wiggle room provided by Autonomies lose intent, and 6000 years of mental gymnastics, figuring out what works and what doesn't, I'm sure Bavadin is the best at twisting the intent to suit her needs. The mental gymnastics are necessary though, and if they aren't performed well enough, she could still hit some roadblocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian he/him Posted May 23, 2017 Report Share Posted May 23, 2017 32 minutes ago, Calderis said: @Extesian maybe I misunderstood. I don't disagree with anything you just said. I fully think that Bavadin is the most free of the Original Vessels. I don't believe it's possible to fully circumvent the shardic intent though. Between the wiggle room provided by Autonomies lose intent, and 6000 years of mental gymnastics, figuring out what works and what doesn't, I'm sure Bavadin is the best at twisting the intent to suit her needs. The mental gymnastics are necessary though, and if they aren't performed well enough, she could still hit some roadblocks. Then we are in furious agreement Calderis I certainly don't think Bavadin cam circumvent Autonomy’s intent, just that she's the one most likely to be fighting it still and finding ways to get around it/maintain her identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted May 26, 2017 Report Share Posted May 26, 2017 6 hours ago, FiveLate said: If 2 can merge, why not all 16 would be the line of logic. Since Bavadin was part of the effort to shatter Adonalsium that would align with the logic. Leras was part of the effort too. But he planned and designed Harmony's birth. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted May 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, FiveLate said: Leras did not so much design harmonious birth as try to slide a fast one past ruin and keep the children alive. Preserve what had been created...In line with his shards intent. The Terris prophecies, corrupted by Ruin to try and get people to free him, were created by Leras and in context specifically fortell the event of Sazed picking up both shards. It was Leras' design. Not Preservation. Leras. Using the powers of a Shard to set up a series of events that the intent of the Shard alone could never have done. Edit: to clarify, I don't think Leras subverted his Shards intent. I think through foresight, he knew that eventually Ruin would break free, and that the only way to preserve Scadrial in the long term would be to reintegrate the Shards. It's some mental gymnastics, but that seems to be what is required for Vessels to go beyond an intents limitations. Edited May 27, 2017 by Calderis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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