retrorocket1 Posted May 13, 2017 Posted May 13, 2017 So a thought just occurred to me. Could a radiant dual wield honor blades and thus get access to 6 surges? Or do the magics counteract each other kind of like surgebinding and modern shardplates? What do you think?
Radiant_Jaeger he/him Posted May 13, 2017 Posted May 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, retrorocket1 said: So a thought just occurred to me. Could a radiant dual wield honor blades and thus get access to 6 surges? Or do the magics counteract each other kind of like surgebinding and modern shardplates? What do you think? I'm not sure if people have to bond blades to be able to use their surges or not if so the max would be 4 (assuming a radiant could bond the Honor blade in addition to their Nahel bond)
Yata he/him Posted May 13, 2017 Posted May 13, 2017 It could, this Hypotetical surgebinder Will have 6 Surges avaliable (assuming the Blades and bond don't overlap some Surge). I am afraid to see how badly efficienty would be.
UpperNotch he/him Posted May 13, 2017 Posted May 13, 2017 Yea I'd asume it would be possible, but bonding an honorblade reduces your efficiency when using stormlight so two of them would be even worse.
Calderis he/him Posted May 13, 2017 Posted May 13, 2017 @Yata @UpperNotch @retrorocket1 I think that they'd have access to the six surges, and if there is an efficiency loss it would only be in the use of the four surges from the Honorblades. The ability to hold Stormlight being granted by a Nahel bond should allow them to hold Stormlight at the same rate as whatever oath level they've sworn allows. Do we have a reason to think multiple blades / bonds would multiply the effects of drawing in or using Stormlight? If not, I think whichever method "upgrades" the the surgebinders the most would set their Stormlight consumption rate.
UpperNotch he/him Posted May 13, 2017 Posted May 13, 2017 @Calderis I think I remember that in one of Szeth's pov scenes he says something about how because of the honorblade just holding Stormlight was less efficient. This makes me think that even if someone were to have a Nahel bond then it wouldn't matter because the honorblade's effectiveness in holding Stormlight would override the Nahel bond. Thinking about it I'm not actually sure if multiple honorblades would change the effectiveness.
Calderis he/him Posted May 13, 2017 Posted May 13, 2017 @UpperNotch Szeth has no experience with a Nahel bond. He speaks of his own experience of being able to hold Stormlight for a few minutes, there's never a contrast in the efficiency, and we have no viewpoint from someone who has experienced both, let alone both at once. Considering the Honorblades were not designed simply to take in and use Stormlight, but to channel investiture from Honor to the Heralds, I think that the Nahel bond would win out. It was designed to function without a direct line to Honor and increases a Radiant's capacity to retain Stormlight, as evidenced by further Oaths strengthing that ability. The Honorblades had no need to do that. I don't think the Honorblades lack of an ability would counteract a known benefit of the Nahel bond. 1
retrorocket1 Posted May 13, 2017 Author Posted May 13, 2017 (edited) @Radiant_Jaeger Didn't really think about having to bond the blade, that is a good point. Do we have any evidence you can't bond multiple blades though? I kind of assumed that they just didn't do it because it made more sense to have two shard-bearers instead of one dual-wielding. edit: Also does the honor blade reduce efficiency or just provide less efficiency than the nahel bond? Edited May 13, 2017 by retrorocket1
Weltall Posted May 15, 2017 Posted May 15, 2017 (edited) The question of Stormlight efficiency with a Radiant who is also holding an Honorblade is a bit fuzzy. DroughtBringer remembers asking Brandon this and being told that it would reduce efficiency (in the context of Kaladin with Jezrien's Blade) but in a later post said they weren't 100% positive they were remembering the response accurately So... maybe it reduces overall efficiency. As for the 'magics interfering' thing, as far as we know there's nothing preventing someone from accumulating as many forms of magic as they can get their hands on (case in point: Hoid). What does become a factor is the resonances. Those are the 'perks' you get when multiple systems combine, producing a result that isn't just 'Power A + Power B and the potential applications of them' but something entirely different. We know that once you accumulate too many kinds of magic, they overpower the resonance effect so you just get the sum of all your powers without the extra effects. So at some point a Radiant carrying around Honorblades would probably get too many Surges and lose their resonance. Which could potentially do some pretty weird things to a Windrunner whose resonance involves other people. Edited May 15, 2017 by Weltall
retrorocket1 Posted May 16, 2017 Author Posted May 16, 2017 3 hours ago, Weltall said: As for the 'magics interfering' thing, as far as we know there's nothing preventing someone from accumulating as many forms of magic as they can get their hands on (case in point: Hoid). I wasn't saying you couldn't get an infinite number of magics but, as has been explained in his other series, there is this thing with identity which prevents you from using other peoples magics. My theory is that the honorblades contain the identity of their herald and shardplate contains the identity of their original radiant. And while someone could use their blade or shardplate, the use of magics of two different identities conflict. This then prevents szeth from using his honorblade and shardplate. In the case of a radiant using a shardblade, there is then three different identities that could potentially conflict.
Calderis he/him Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 13 minutes ago, retrorocket1 said: I wasn't saying you couldn't get an infinite number of magics but, as has been explained in his other series, there is this thing with identity which prevents you from using other peoples magics. My theory is that the honorblades contain the identity of their herald and shardplate contains the identity of their original radiant. And while someone could use their blade or shardplate, the use of magics of two different identities conflict. This then prevents szeth from using his honorblade and shardplate. In the case of a radiant using a shardblade, there is then three different identities that could potentially conflict. If the Honorblades were identity locked to the Heralds, then they would only act as a sword to someone else holding them. The fact that they gave surges to Szeth shows there is no identity lock in place. As for Shardplate, unless you think it's going to grant an ability beyond it's protection, I don't see how identity plays a role.
retrorocket1 Posted May 16, 2017 Author Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Calderis said: If the Honorblades were identity locked to the Heralds, then they would only act as a sword to someone else holding them. The fact that they gave surges to Szeth shows there is no identity lock in place. As for Shardplate, unless you think it's going to grant an ability beyond it's protection, I don't see how identity plays a role. I guess that makes sense. We do know however szeth thought he could only pick one, either honorblade or plate, which was probably due to the absorbtion of investiture. But we know knights in the past were able to use both, which implies there is a way to get around this. I suspect it has to do with identity, and the shardplate didn't take the stormlight of the knight whose identity it contained. edit: Of course another explaination is that shardplate like the blade is sentient. Edited May 16, 2017 by retrorocket1
Calderis he/him Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) @retrorocket1 as far as I know, the Heralds never had plate. It was a creation of the KR that we still don't fully understand. I don't think that Szeth was wrong about that particular thought. We also know that "dead" plate doesn't react well to surgebinding from the Kaladins experience in the dueling grounds. So there is definitely something with plate. I can't tell you what that something is... But yeah. I don't think it's an identity issue though. Edit: who knows though. Maybe the plate would function correctly and glow if the correct wearer could still surgebind and use it. Maybe it is Identity. I'm totally at a loss for what's up with Shardplate. Edited May 16, 2017 by Calderis
CalaCrisp88 Posted May 17, 2017 Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) This made me think of what kinds of crazy Resonances would occur as a result of having so many non-adjacent surges. Actually, would the Honorblades still give you Resonances, or only the Nahel bond? Edit, I should probably make a new topic later. Wouldn't want to derail this thread lol Edited May 17, 2017 by 8giraffe8
Calderis he/him Posted May 17, 2017 Posted May 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, 8giraffe8 said: This made me think of what kinds of crazy Resonances would occur as a result of having so many non-adjacent surges. Actually, would the Honorblades still give you Resonances, or only the Nahel bond? Edit, I should probably make a new topic later. Wouldn't want to derail this thread lol It's just having access to multiple powers that cause a resonance. The source shouldn't matter.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted May 17, 2017 Posted May 17, 2017 27 minutes ago, 8giraffe8 said: This made me think of what kinds of crazy Resonances would occur as a result of having so many non-adjacent surges. Actually, would the Honorblades still give you Resonances, or only the Nahel bond? As Calderis said, Resonance is basically Power A + Power B +(Investiture Physics) = Resonance. Something to note is that if you get too many powers, Resonances fade out and you don't have them anymore. I personally think that happens around 4-5 Powers, but we really have no idea other than KR/Twinborn(2 Powers) get them, and Mistborn(16) don't.
+Extesian he/him Posted May 17, 2017 Posted May 17, 2017 51 minutes ago, Calderis said: It's just having access to multiple powers that cause a resonance. The source shouldn't matter. 27 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: As Calderis said, Resonance is basically Power A + Power B +(Investiture Physics) = Resonance. Something to note is that if you get too many powers, Resonances fade out and you don't have them anymore. I personally think that happens around 4-5 Powers, but we really have no idea other than KR/Twinborn(2 Powers) get them, and Mistborn(16) don't. Now this is something I've been unsure of, the idea that a resonance on Roshar is from any two surges, because of this WoB. Quote KHYRINDOR Do the Honourblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade? BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED) The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial It's not at all decisive but does make me wonder if the known resonances, like squire strength/number and mnemonic abilities, only exist because the paired surges that bring them are actually paired. If the pairs are natural to Roshar and the pairs themselves are comparable to metals on Scadrial, perhaps you do not get a new resonance from mixing non-adjacent surges and the ten are it.
Calderis he/him Posted May 17, 2017 Posted May 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, Extesian said: Now this is something I've been unsure of, the idea that a resonance on Roshar is from any two surges, because of this WoB. It's not at all decisive but does make me wonder if the known resonances, like squire strength/number and mnemonic abilities, only exist because the paired surges that bring them are actually paired. If the pairs are natural to Roshar and the pairs themselves are comparable to metals on Scadrial, perhaps you do not get a new resonance from mixing non-adjacent surges and the ten are it. I disagree, primarily because of Allomancy. Mistborn stuff. Spoiler Wax and Wayne both have resonances, even if we don't know what they are. It's implied that all twin born would have resonances.
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