Adolin's actions at the end of WOR

[Calderis he/him]

@Radiant_Jaeger have to say I agree with @maxal here. 

 Elhokar is a grown man who still acts like a spoiled child. Yes he tries, but he tries because he feels belittled by other people who don't respect him. They don't respect him because he's done nothing to earn that respect. 

 Dalinar is willing to overlook all of his shortcomings, to the point that he feels the need to defend those legitimate shortcomings when they are presented by Navani. The woman that Dalinar has always loved, and Elhokar's mother speaks a legitimate criticism and Dalinar's response is over the top righteous indignation. That screams of irrationality. 

Dalinar speaks often of his jealous and guilt regarding Gavilar. It's a fairly straightforward mental and emotional compensation on Dalinar's part. It's completely understandable, and it's still irrational and harmful. It's harmful to Dalinar's relationships with his children, and it's Harmful to both Elhokar and Alethkar because it prevents Elhokar from facing his shortcomings and being forced to grow as both a ruler and person. 

[Reborn radiant]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

 Dalinar is willing to overlook all of his shortcomings, to the point that he feels the need to defend those legitimate shortcomings when they are presented by Navani. The woman that Dalinar has always loved, and Elhokar's mother speaks a legitimate criticism and Dalinar's response is over the top righteous indignation. That screams of irrationality. 

This, I completely agree with. Eholkar has a ton of faults, but most of them could stem from him trying too hard and not succeeding enough times. May be Dalinar is seeing through him and hence he supports him wholeheartedly, but I agree that is very flimsy. But I don't think it is completely guilt like @maxal says. It is most likely a combination of both.

[Reborn radiant]

14 hours ago, maxal said:

He would learn to relent his control over Adolin, allowing him to grow into the man he is and accept this man might not be exactly what Dalinar wanted, but it remains a pretty good decent man.

(I am sorry for making two seperate comments, but when ever I quote things from two different pages, they open up in two different text boxes, I can't seem to figure out how to make them come in the same box!)

One of my biggest predictions for Oathbringer is that Adolin is going to be exiled. Only then will Adolin be free from his father's shadow, or most likely free from the image he created for himself. His time alone might help him come to terms with who he is and everything, and separation from Dalinar will most likely make Dalinar realize what mistakes he has been committing towards Adolin. Moreover, I think Adolin will become a radiant - or atleast, a rogue shardbearer who does badass things - and for any character to be influential they need a strong character arc. Adolin hadn't one so far. Being holed up in Urithiru, I don't think will let Adolin grow or be free from what he has done. He needs to move away, roam around, think and find himself. Hence Dalinar exiling him makes most sense for me. He won't be relenting his control , he won't set him free, he will just tear his ties with him, if only temporarily. This is just a prediction though.

I have really high expectations for Adolin, I am going to be terribly disappointed if he doesn't get the screen time he deserves. But Bran San keeps telling that he is only a side character, and that scares me a lot.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I am hoping that exile is not where Adolin is headed, mainly because he has few pov chapters, as such to see him we need him to be with other people that do have pov chapters. Another point is that I'm not sure what his purpose into the overall story would be if he were on his own, and I am a bit doubtful that a side character will be given something huge, like bringing a country or group into the fold when we have 10 main characters. As such I am hoping that Adolin gets sent to Kholinar, so that he can be away from Dalinar, yet be in the middle of the action. 

Oh, and I think the reason why Adolin and Szeth are the characters I'm most looking forward to reading is that they are both in a crossroads, we have no clue where they might be going (other than lots of spectulation) and their final destination could be anywhere from radiant, to outcast, to champion, to Odium, to leader.

Edited May 15, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

This, I completely agree with. Eholkar has a ton of faults, but most of them could stem from him trying too hard and not succeeding enough times. May be Dalinar is seeing through him and hence he supports him wholeheartedly, but I agree that is very flimsy. But I don't think it is completely guilt like @maxal says. It is most likely a combination of both.

There are several facets to Elhokar's character.

On one side, he was the sole son of a great king (well considered to be great by his people, I personally think Gavilar was a horrible human being hiding being a veil of superior morality), the last child in a family made of authoritative individuals and, as such, probably never really found his voice. He was also thrust into a position of high leadership at a very young age, a position he wasn't ready nor capable of occupying. The training he ought to have received seemed to have never materialized itself and the one individual able to help was his uncle and yeah, well, Dalinar cannot stand a power vacuum, so when he sees one, he just occupies it. He presumably "tried" at being an authoritative, respected king, but he has no idea how to command such feelings. This is the side of Elhokar which usually gets some readers to feel sympathy/pity for him.

The other side of Elhokar however isn't so appealing. Sure, he was given a hard task, but he remained a temperamental, arrogant, full of himself and capricious man. He claimed to have tried at listening advises, but when he throws Kaladin in prison, he would not allow his anger to fade. Weeks, weeks, Kaladin had to rot in there before he was allowed to step out and I strongly suspect the only reason he was even freed was because they couldn't afford having Adolin also locked in there for much longer. In other words, I do think Adolin's move is probably what allowed Kaladin to, ultimately, be freed. And why was Elhokar so angry he saw fit to imprison a man merely guilty of an ill-phrased, ill-timed boon, a man who couldn't know the rules surrounding dueling and whom had just saved Adolin's life while helping him to secure a decisive victory? Because the people loved Kaladin, he became their hero and he would not allow such a man to steal the worship he believes he is entitled to. He is jealous, petty and for it, Kaladin nearly paid a hefty price. He also doesn't care about his people, about their life. He allowed 50 men to die in a stupid hunt which only happened because he wanted an excuse to appear strong. Dalinar said it himself, the hunt is just a pretext to have others view Elhokar as a strong leader. His arrogance and his temper caused him to behave foolishly: men died for it and when he was told just how many, he barely acknowledged it. Adolin was rather frustrated by his lack of concern: these were his men.

The problem with Dalinar is he is completely oblivious to Elhokar's flaws. He keeps on referring to him as a "very strong king" despite the fact Elhokar struggles to have other Highprinces respect. He keeps on defending him when he should have admonished him for his irresponsible behavior and had not Dalinar spoiled him so much, Elhokar might have started to learn it isn't his capacities which are at fault, but his behavior, his attitude. He stubbornly refuses to see where Elhokar has failed, he refuses to admit he might have wrongs. This is one thing to believe in Elhokar, to think he can do it, it is another entirely to ignore where he is failing and how much of a dishonorable, despicable man he is turning out to be. Such blindness can't sprout out of nowhere and since we have been told how jealous Dalinar once was of Gavilar, since we know Dalinar's love of Elhokar is disproportionate, it is very easy to conclude Dalinar is over-compensating his behavior with Gavilar by blindly over-loving his son. There is also this passage in Oathbringer which also strongly points towards it.

Elhokar's incompetence is also something Adolin has personally noted on several occasions. I wouldn't be surprised if, somewhere in his character progression, Adolin would start to feel hurt at seeing his father forgive everything to Elhokar, even his vilest actions, but nothing to him.

In shorts, I just don't think Dalinar's behavior with Elhokar is the sane and healthy concern of a father for a weaker child (this would be Renarin whom Dalinar has spoiled by over-sheltering him). Elhokar is not weak (he is not a simpleton, he has shown to understand politics, he surely knows how to fight decently: there is no reason he can't do better except for his attitude), he is spoiled and Dalinar is one of the reasons he became this way. Since Dalinar absolutely does not spoil Adolin, we can only conclude it arose from other circumstances.

19 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

(I am sorry for making two seperate comments, but when ever I quote things from two different pages, they open up in two different text boxes, I can't seem to figure out how to make them come in the same box!)

Yeah, that's a bother. It used to work but it sort of stopped working with the latest site update. I usually just edit the post once posted to add more comments from posts which were on another page.

About Adolin and exile, this is a hard one. While you are bringing interesting point and it is true watching Adolin evolve, far away from his father's influence, could make a pretty good story arc, @WhiteLeeopard as the truth of it. It does appear as if the only way we are going to remain on reading Adolin is if he remains within the vicinity of the other main protagonists. So how can the exile story arc within such circumstances?

Here are a few ideas:

1) Adolin keeps kidnapped and/or saved by Eshonai and the Parshendi. He spends most of book 4 with her, estranged from his family, slowly gaining her trust and eventually becoming the link agent in between the rogue Parshendis and Alethi. It isn't really an exile so to speak, but Adolin has time away from his family while remaining close to the main protagonist, just in time for a book heavily focusing on Eshonai. Also, both characters have an unfinished story and if there is someone who can manage to care for the Parshendis elderly and children, it is Adolin. 

2) At the end of book 3, Adolin either runs away and/or is exiled. Since there is a one year gap in between book 3 and book 4, then his exile would happen off-screen. Once book 4 kicks in, he would eventually find his way back towards his family. It works within the narrative, but it deprives him from having on-screen character growth. It would also be a tad frustrating for the readers.

3) Brandon changes his mind and decides to give Adolin a stronger character arc. What might he be doing as an exiled? One idea I have had is Adolin does run away, in the dead of the night or in the middle of feast (or to make matters words during Dalinar/Navani's wedding). He breaks all ties in between himself and his family, he solemnly swears to never allow anyone to ever get close to him. Never again will he love. Never again will he be vulnerable enough to allow himself to love, but while he swears this, he also makes another promise, a promise to the one who never betrayed him, who never dropped him, who was always there for him even if he doesn't deserve her... His Blade. Thus, he makes the promise to find it a place for her to rest in peace. He doesn't think about freeing it, he just thinks about ending her sufferance. He can do this. Right? For her. In the mean time, he will not summon her, he will not use her.

And thus he goes on his endless guest to find the right place to dispose her. On his way, he meets people, refuges. They need help. He can't refuse. Hence, he stays, for a short while, he helps in any way he can: he fights the Voidbringers when they attack defenseless people, he trains farmer on how to fight, he helps village fortify themselves, he hordes orphans into villages able to help them. Whatever needs to be done, he just does. Because. But he never stays. He will not allow anyone to get close to him, he will never stay long enough for him to grow attached. Never again. Words spread. The stranger who just pops by whenever people need help. Maybe they give him a name, because he won't leave one, but stories about him start to travel around. Soldiers eventually hear it. Dalinar eventually hears it, but he asks the wrong questions. He does not ask what the mysterious wanderer looks like, he just asks if he can surgebinde. He can't. Dalinar doesn't ask more questions.

So Adolin keeps on going and one day, he finds it. The perfect place. A volcano maybe? The deep end of the ocean? Anyway, the moment to break the bond and allow his Blade to rest, except he can't. All this time he had been looking for a way to free it without realizing he has been... freeing it.

Then Brandon drops in to finish it up: Adolin has to find his way back to his family, he has to summon his Blade again and well, this could work, but huh, not with Adolin the side character.

20 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

I have really high expectations for Adolin, I am going to be terribly disappointed if he doesn't get the screen time he deserves. But Bran San keeps telling that he is only a side character, and that scares me a lot.

Yeah well.... you might prepare yourself to be disappointed. As far as I can tell, Brandon doesn't have the intention to give Adolin more screen time. 

[Reborn radiant]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

At the end of book 3, Adolin either runs away and/or is exiled. Since there is a one year gap in between book 3 and book 4, then his exile would happen off-screen. Once book 4 kicks in, he would eventually find his way back towards his family. It works within the narrative, but it deprives him from having on-screen character growth. It would also be a tad frustrating for the readers.

Wait, Is this confirmed? I thought only time skip we will get is after book 5.

 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin keeps kidnapped and/or saved by Eshonai and the Parshendi. He spends most of book 4 with her, estranged from his family, slowly gaining her trust and eventually becoming the link agent in between the rogue Parshendis and Alethi. It isn't really an exile so to speak, but Adolin has time away from his family while remaining close to the main protagonist, just in time for a book heavily focusing on Eshonai. Also, both characters have an unfinished story and if there is someone who can manage to care for the Parshendis elderly and children, it is Adolin. 

Isn't eshonai seperated from other parshendi by the end of the WoR though? I think Eshonai is going to on a character arc herself, the one who eventually breaks free of odium's influence and works against odium. I don't think it will be good to have the story arc burdened with Adolin too. I really like the third one, but I was going more along the lines of a rogue Shardbearer who does badass deeds like what ever you mentioned, but his end goal is not to free his shardblade, but more along the lines of saving his family by doing the dirty work. May be he uncovers a plot line or may be his end goal is just to go to kholinar in disguise and help matters there.

[Guest]

On 15.5.2017 at 8:16 AM, Reborn radiant said:

Moreover, I think Adolin will become a radiant - or atleast, a rogue shardbearer who does badass things - and for any character to be influential they need a strong character arc.

A vigilante? *groan*

I wouldn't mind him becoming a Radiant, but I really don't think, that he is broken enough. Not trying to belittle his problems, whatever he had to go through is child's play compared to what Kaladin, Shallan or even his brother went through. Though, if he'd were to attract a spren an bond with it, I wouldn't mind.

4 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin keeps kidnapped and/or saved by Eshonai and the Parshendi. He spends most of book 4 with her, estranged from his family, slowly gaining her trust and eventually becoming the link agent in between the rogue Parshendis and Alethi. It isn't really an exile so to speak, but Adolin has time away from his family while remaining close to the main protagonist, just in time for a book heavily focusing on Eshonai. Also, both characters have an unfinished story and if there is someone who can manage to care for the Parshendis elderly and children, it is Adolin. 

I like that idea. Especially because I hope, that Eshonai becomes Adolin's love interest.

Edited May 16, 2017 by SLNC

[Vissy]

Please no storming vigilante plotlines for Adolin. He works splendidly as a supplement to the main cast we've currently assembled, and the things I am most intrigued about his future have to do with his interactions with them.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Reborn radiant]

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

I wouldn't mind him becoming a Radiant, but I really don't think, that he is broken enough.

not yet. But him killing sadeas in the end, and Dalinar's potential punishment may break him enough.

[ryshadium90]

2 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

Please no storming vigilante plotlines for Adolin. He works splendidly as a supplement to the main cast we've currently assembled, and the things I am most intrigued about his future have to do with his interactions with them.

 

56 minutes ago, Reborn radiant said:

not yet. But him killing sadeas in the end, and Dalinar's potential punishment may break him enough.

I'm gonna agree with @Rob Lucci on this one. I'm perfectly fine with him not being another broken character. He's got enough things to worry about, besides the whole Sadeas-Dalinar thing.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I wouldn't mind seeing Adolin become a radiant, but I'm also quite ok with him been a normal shardbearer. It is like those cases where been "less" actually makes a person be "more", as he doesn't have any tricks to do what the others do, but his own personal skills with no "magical" help. Not to mention that I do believe we need an important viewpoint/character that the main cast will listen to who is "normal", to add the voice of reason if/when the others go off too wrapped up in their ideals to sometimes see the pragmatic realities in front of them. That been said, if Adolin does become a radiant I will be ecstatically happy . But I do feel a non-radiant character is needed close to the main group.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

Wait, Is this confirmed? I thought only time skip we will get is after book 5.

Brandon recently said, on Reddit, he planned for one year time skip in between book 3 and 4. Obviously, it won't be officially confirmed until he starts writing the book, but this appears to be the plan.

18 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

Isn't eshonai seperated from other parshendi by the end of the WoR though? I think Eshonai is going to on a character arc herself, the one who eventually breaks free of odium's influence and works against odium. I don't think it will be good to have the story arc burdened with Adolin too. I really like the third one, but I was going more along the lines of a rogue Shardbearer who does badass deeds like what ever you mentioned, but his end goal is not to free his shardblade, but more along the lines of saving his family by doing the dirty work. May be he uncovers a plot line or may be his end goal is just to go to kholinar in disguise and help matters there.

Well, to work out, this speculative story arc obviously implies Eshonai's story arc, in Oathbringer, revolves around her getting rid of her stormform and meeting up with the rogue Parshendis which is pretty much what I expect out of it. Book 4 would focus on her finding a way to reconcile the rogue Parshendis with Alethkar which is why I think a character such as Adolin could be of precious help. One of my speculative idea involves Eshonai and the rogue Parshendis stopping the Everstorm in the same way it was started. I personally do not see it as "burdened" with Adolin: Eshonai isn't exactly the most popular character nor is she one readers, on average, overly enjoys reading. Frequent comments are the Parshendis chapters can be hard to get into, hence teaming her up with Adolin would help overcome this issue. He could also serve as the one character who explores the Parshendis, seeing it from a foreigner's angle which would help us readers get to know them better. Throwing in a stranger and/or a novice into an unknown situation is a common narrative process and I think, with SA, Adolin would be the best character to use for it. Other characters just wouldn't work as well, I think. It also has the benefit of separating Adolin from his family which all agrees would be interesting to read. Besides, teaming up protagonists and having them evolve together, for a short while, is often done in Epic Fantasy: Jordan often changed his pairings in order to create new dynamic and it kept the story engaging. 

A few things about Adolin becoming a vigilante. Not only do I not like the idea, but I don't think it works with Adolin and here is why within four steps. Sorry, this is lengthy 

First, if Adolin is exiled, he is highly unlikely to carry on his Shardplate with him: it is too heavy, hard to conceal and difficult to transport unless you are wearing it. There is also the issue of Adolin in exile wouldn't have access to the stormlight required to power it. Hence, as a exile and renegade, Adolin will certainly not be a full Shardbearer. It may be he will have his Blade, but formal exile certainly implies he will be strip from it before being sent away. Shardblades are too valuable to allow one getting loss into the Roshar without keeping any ties to it. Thus the only way Adolin is exiled with his Blade is if he runs away with it. I see not way for him to carry on this story arc while retaining his Plate: this, he will have to leave behind. 

Second, it is completely against Adolin's character to turn into a vigilante. Revenge and killing aren't among his character motivators. The fact he killed one man having actively threatened his father doesn't make him a vigilante. I will point right here just how much gloating Adolin needed to finally do the deed: he had to witness 6000 of his men dying, he had to witness a nearly successful assassination attempt made on his father's life, he had to see his father's plans to deal with Sadeas completely fail and he had to hear the taunts spoken in a way which left no doubt as to whether or not there was a way to ever convince Sadeas to stop being an antagonist. The amount of provocation Adolin needed to kill the man was insane, just plain insane. Thus to think he would roam the world, looking out for random people potentially opposing his father and killing them for it just falls completely outside his character. He has never once shown he had the making of becoming such a man and the one reason many readers like the idea is likely tied to the fact a protagonist who acts is actually attractive. People also love badass action, hence Adolin has necessarily to evolve into this dark anti-hero character. I say, this is putting way too much thought and influence onto the killing of Sadeas. Adolin's core characteristics aren't anger, nor vengeance, nor killing, but deep care and love. He acts because he cares, not because he is dark, broody and good with a sword. He just isn't a killer. He doesn't have the personality for it nor the inclinations.

Third, the most likely think to happen to Adolin is exile is precisely what I suggested. He is highly likely to attach himself to new people, helping them, because that's just what Adolin does. He sees someone in need, he stops and he acts. I see him doing just that. No need of avenging some absurd notion of justice Adolin does not even have, he just needs to be the one good samaritan who gives a hand to those in need. That's his core essence and if he is ever exiled, I expect him to do just that, not much else. A good story arc could be plucked out of it, but it would likely clash with the remaining of the main narrative.

Fourth, come to think of it official exile of high ranked individuals probably doesn't imply the accused being dropped in the middle of nowhere with a bag of spheres. No. If Adolin is officially exiled, then he will most probably be send to another secure location with his guards trailing after him. Stories of nobles being exiled always have them being dignitaries into foreign nations. Dalinar might be a hard father, but he won't abandon Adolin, alone, in the middle of a rock desert with no resources. He'll send him to Azir or to Rira, to his uncle, somewhere, but not nowhere.

So I say, the vigilante story arc might be an attractive story arc for some readers, but it isn't one meant for Adolin's character. Characters such as Szeth and Jasnah are much better suited to fill in those roles, IMHO.

16 hours ago, SLNC said:

A vigilante? *groan*

I wouldn't mind him becoming a Radiant, but I really don't think, that he is broken enough. Not trying to belittle his problems, whatever he had to go through is child's play compared to what Kaladin, Shallan or even his brother went through. Though, if he'd were to attract a spren an bond with it, I wouldn't mind.

Since I sincerely doubt killing (Kaladin with Syl) and/or pratically killing (Shallan with Pattern) your spren was once part of the regular journey of every new knights from the initial bond to full knighthood, I would argue Kaladin/Shallan aren't representative Radiants. I would solidly argue they both practically destroyed their bond out being almost too broken to recover/reforge. I would also point the event which caused Shallan/Kaladin to earn their bond was likely much lesser than the ordeal they lived through afterwards. When readers have the perception they have endured atrocities, they usually refer those later events, not the ones which "broke" them enough for a Nahel bond. In shorts, watching your brother (who was a soldier, so not a civilian) being killed in a war is terrible, just as speculatively growing up into a dysfunctional family, but was truly turned Kaladin/Shallan's stories into horror movies is the subsequent slavery/betrayal/slaughtering of squad/bridge runs and the killing of a mother/abusive father/brothers being beaten down/wife and servants being assassinated. These events nearly destroyed their Nahel bond and by no means should they used as the threshold of hardships one needs to endure to be worthy of a bond.

I would argue being forced to face legal charges which could range from execution to exile passing through disownment, loss of Shards and basically losing all of your father's respect/love are quite severe hardships. We thus do not currently have the capacities to evaluate how severe Adolin's path will soon become, but inklings we have are it won't be an easy trek along a smooth path.

I should also mention it isn't a contest in between whom suffered more than whom. You can't compare pains: what is hard for one wouldn't be so for another, but I strongly disagree Adolin's ordeal is automatically leagues lesser than Renarin's.

16 hours ago, SLNC said:

I like that idea. Especially because I hope, that Eshonai becomes Adolin's love interest.

The only reason I can see why Adolin and Eshonai could have a potential romance is the fact he is a man and she is a woman...  

Quite frankly, they do not seem to have much in common apart from being able to fight. Eshonai, as far as we can gather, is naturally curious, adventurous, she loves to discover foreign cultures, but she is a tad unreliable and easily distracted. Adolin is more likely to grow exasperated at her lack of focus than fond of it: he is a get down to the basic man, he is action-oriented and when he says he does something, he actually does it. I can't see him working well with someone who stops midway in a task to go chase butterflies (figuratively speaking). Hence, I find Adolin to be too reliable to end feeling satisfied within a relationship with someone who isn't.

Besides, Adolin doesn't strike me as the kind of man to fall in love for an alien species: foreign creatures scare him, they do not fascinate him. He is also not a rebel, he isn't a breaker of conventions nor is he a reformer. He is highly unlikely to push for a romance with a former enemy which would be publicly shunned upon more so than an union with a darkeyed. That's just not him. Also, I doubt he would ever grow attracted to an older woman: he is too inexperienced to be attracted to an experienced woman. He wouldn't find it attractive, but incredibly scary. Adolin tends to fear what he does not know.

What could work though is if they develop and older sister/younger brother sort of relationship, learning to work together, to understand each other better, but I do not foresee love. There is also the fact Eshonai does't strike me as the kind of individuals having the right qualities to make Adolin move over his blockage when it comes to relationships not to forget she mentioned not being interested into romance. She said to have tried it, once, and hated it.

12 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

Please no storming vigilante plotlines for Adolin. He works splendidly as a supplement to the main cast we've currently assembled, and the things I am most intrigued about his future have to do with his interactions with them.

I say Adolin is too pro-active and has too much agency he is willing to use to remain a supplement character. Supplement characters are meant to strengthen the story arc of main protagonists, they aren't meant to drive parts of the story arcs. 

In shorts, what Adolin is doing, his actions, his character have too much influence within the story for him to remain a mere supplement character. He has out-grown this role, so it is either Brandon gives him the room he needs to keep on growing or he suffers having his readers spend more time focusing on his side character than on his main protagonists to the risk of frustrating them. As a reader, I say it is never good, in any given story, when your readers are more interested in your side characters than they are of your major ones. I thus say, sooner or later, Brandon will have to address the "Adolin issue" in a way his readers will find satisfying.

[Reborn radiant]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

Thus the only way Adolin is exiled with his Blade is if he runs away with it. I see not way for him to carry on this story arc while retaining his Plate: this, he will have to leave behind. 

This single point is enough to shatter all my dreams T-T
Great analysis!

 

6 hours ago, maxal said:

it is completely against Adolin's character to turn into a vigilante. Revenge and killing aren't among his character motivators

I didn't mean in the sense that he would go on and kill a lot of people! I meant that he would go and PROTECT a lot of people. He would protect patches of people, isolated or otherwise, from voidbringers and stuff like that. Ideally that is, I am not really sure it is within realms of possibility. I didn't think this many people wouldn't like adolin being vigilante kinda character though.

I don't want Jasnah to be rogue at all. I'd love to see her being badass and all, but I also like her best when she is in the middle of everything, pulling strings to make people dance and such.

[Vissy]

Quote

I say Adolin is too pro-active and has too much agency he is willing to use to remain a supplement character. Supplement characters are meant to strengthen the story arc of main protagonists, they aren't meant to drive parts of the story arcs. 

In shorts, what Adolin is doing, his actions, his character have too much influence within the story for him to remain a mere supplement character. He has out-grown this role, so it is either Brandon gives him the room he needs to keep on growing or he suffers having his readers spend more time focusing on his side character than on his main protagonists to the risk of frustrating them. As a reader, I say it is never good, in any given story, when your readers are more interested in your side characters than they are of your major ones. I thus say, sooner or later, Brandon will have to address the "Adolin issue" in a way his readers will find satisfying.

Being proactive in no way prevents one from being a side character, where do you keep getting these baseless ideas?

I also disagree. Brandon has Adolin cast as a side character and he is going to stay that way, no matter how people may think he has "out-grown" his role as one. What, the moment side characters accomplish something they "out-grow" their role as side characters? I get that you want Adolin to be important, but Brandon has pretty much said that he doesn't envision ADolin ever becoming a main character. This doesn't stop him from having interesting sideplots.

[Guest]

@maxal

I'm a bit overwhelmed right now... Gonna need a few days for this.

[geralt]

2 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

Being proactive in no way prevents one from being a side character, where do you keep getting these baseless ideas?

I also disagree. Brandon has Adolin cast as a side character and he is going to stay that way, no matter how people may think he has "out-grown" his role as one. What, the moment side characters accomplish something they "out-grow" their role as side characters? I get that you want Adolin to be important, but Brandon has pretty much said that he doesn't envision ADolin ever becoming a main character. This doesn't stop him from having interesting sideplots.

Things aren't exactly set in stone, though. While Adolin was originally meant to be a side character to provide a an outside point of view of Dalinar, I don't think it's that impossible of Brandon to make him more relevant in the future, if he decides the narrative may benefit from it. Especially when there's 7 more books to be written, you just can never know what will happen.

Still. I don't think it will be an issue at all if Adolin remains a side character and saying otherwise seems a tad presumptuous in my opinion. The series has so many great characters, but even more than that, it simply doesn't rely on any single one of them to be excellent and I'm confident it would remain just as great with or without one of them.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

This single point is enough to shatter all my dreams T-T
Great analysis!

Sorry! I don't however possess infinite knowledge: it may be your speculative story arc can work, but within the constraints of the current narrative I would rate it as highly unlikely. Still it might another character will come and fit in this role. Moash perhaps? He is on the run with a full set... so he may be what you are looking for.

13 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

I didn't mean in the sense that he would go on and kill a lot of people! I meant that he would go and PROTECT a lot of people. He would protect patches of people, isolated or otherwise, from voidbringers and stuff like that. Ideally that is, I am not really sure it is within realms of possibility. I didn't think this many people wouldn't like adolin being vigilante kinda character though.

I don't want Jasnah to be rogue at all. I'd love to see her being badass and all, but I also like her best when she is in the middle of everything, pulling strings to make people dance and such.

I find it too similar to Kaladin's story arc. While it is true Adolin would definitely protect people, I think he is more likely to just give help than truly protect. He would be the one time helper which helps once, but then is gone on his way. Still while fun I am unsure it can work out: it seems the kind of arc to happen within the background and I'd rather it doesn't.

I didn't mean to imply I wished Jasnah to become a vigilante, I meant to say I believe she has the right personality for it.

11 hours ago, geralt said:

Things aren't exactly set in stone, though. While Adolin was originally meant to be a side character to provide a an outside point of view of Dalinar, I don't think it's that impossible of Brandon to make him more relevant in the future, if he decides the narrative may benefit from it. Especially when there's 7 more books to be written, you just can never know what will happen.

Precisely. The plan might be to work with a given set of characters, but nothing precludes Brandon from realizing, later on, one of his characters simply does not work out. It isn't entirely possible one planned character's role gets reduced because it doesn't deliver what the author thought it would just it isn't impossible for an unplanned character such as Adolin to grow beyond the restrictive role of a "side character". He has already grown quite some way since the original planning and while Brandon did need Adolin for WoK, he didn't need him for WoR. Had he not want to write him, he could have just drop him. He didn't which means, to me at least, the character is moving up the ladder whether it was planned or not.

11 hours ago, geralt said:

Still. I don't think it will be an issue at all if Adolin remains a side character and saying otherwise seems a tad presumptuous in my opinion. The series has so many great characters, but even more than that, it simply doesn't rely on any single one of them to be excellent and I'm confident it would remain just as great with or without one of them.

I think I need to offer additional precision: I meant to say readers have expectations which are based on the main narrative the author chose to write. From my perspective, Brandon has to address those expectations because he is the one who created them in the first place. Had he not want readers to develop such strong ones for Adolin, he would not have had him kill Sadeas. He would not have given him so many viewpoints. He would not have given him his own chapter icon. Except he did all of those things and because he chose to, many readers have developed high expectations with respect to Adolin's future. Thus for me, it isn't a matter of giving Adolin a story arc or not, it is the matter of which one to give him. What usually tips me off is the notion Adolin should not be given any story arc, should remain a "supplement character" with little impact onto the narrative merely because the original planning didn't need him to.

My point is we are passed this time. Adolin has impact onto the narrative, the author cannot backtrack onto the character and say WoR never happened nor do I expect Brandon to actually do it. I am just flustered it keeps getting suggested this is precisely what he ought to do.

I apologize if my post sounded presumptuous: I can assure you it wasn't my intentions, but huh sometimes it is hard to put one's thoughts into coherent wording.

@Rob Lucci: I will also take for granted you didn't mean your post to sound so.... aggressive, detrimental even. I will however let you know this is how I am reading it which saddens me. You will understand it makes it difficult for me to answer it adequately.

[Vissy]

Even side characters can have story arcs, interesting or not. Again - just because a character has interesting fluff doesn't mean they are part of the "Main cast", and neither is a requirement for one another.

[Reborn radiant]

I completely agree with @maxal here. Adolin had done too much already! One of the most badass scenes in WoR is from adolin (2 v 5 shard bearers). Adolin gets more and more attention and focus, he is made more and more likeable. So, I , as a reader, expect more from adolin as books progress. At the very least Bran San has to give Adolin as much importance as he has given them in the last few books, decreasing his screen time will be a bad thing. Especially after WoR. Increasing it is optimal. But I also believe it can be done without him becoming a main character per se. He can remain a side character and still be given importance.
 

as for the other

21 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

Being proactive in no way prevents one from being a side character, where do you keep getting these baseless ideas?

I don't think the idea is baseless though. Consider this: Rock is a side character, lopen is a side character, gaz is a side character. Adolin is ALSO a side character. See what I am getting at? What I mean to say is that for someone who bran san thinks shouldn't be an important character, Adolin has done too much, has been given too many PoV chapters and what not. IMHO I think that is outgrowing his role.

[Guest]

I don't know how Adolin (a side character) killing Sadeas (another side character) suddenly makes him part of the main cast. Side characters kill eachother all the time and to be honest, Adolin was the only one with a true motivation to kill Sadeas. Yes, Kaladin doesn't like him, but he doesn't hate him like Adolin does. So, what does Brandon do? He wants Sadeas gone, so Sadeas provokes Adolin to the brink of his patience and Adolin kills him. I really don't know, why this should make him a main character. I agree with @Rob Lucci, side characters can have meaningful arcs, without being part of the main cast. The Stormlight Archive is about the Knights Radiant. Adolin is not a Knight Radiant, thus he is not part of the main cast. At least, that's my reasoning. ( @Reborn radiant Because you replied after I started typing this reply )

I have a suspicion, why you so badly want him part of the main cast, @maxal. Because it is like life insurance. Brandon has stated in the past, that he does not like Adolin as a character and that gives the impression he might kill him off anytime. I think, let him. Fan service seldom does anything good to a story and this is Brandon's story to tell. Not ours. I am afraid Kaladin might die some stupid heroic death at the end of book 5. I would probably be devastated, but I'd live with it. I'd have to.

If anything, I'd put Adolin as an important side character, but he's still a side character. Why? Simply because the author says so.

As always, if I misinterpreted, then I apologize for that.

[Vissy]

The reason why I don't want Adolin to be a main character is because I just simply enjoy him too much as a complement to the main cast we already have. I don't think there's enough time to devote to a big story arc for Adolin when we still have Lift, Szeth, Dalinar etc. to take care of and the big Devastation to solve. The murder mystery and his romantic escapades are entertaining enough for me. That is Adolin's 'main story arc' as of now.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

Even side characters can have story arcs, interesting or not. Again - just because a character has interesting fluff doesn't mean they are part of the "Main cast", and neither is a requirement for one another.

Reducing Adolin's contribution to the story as "fluff" is simplistic not to forget it completely ignores the impact the character has had onto the main narrative. 

Fluff, by definition, means something superficial and trivial. In the case of a narrative, they would be story arcs and/or snippets which aren't playing any definite function nor purpose apart from perhaps comical relief. In the case of characters, they would be refer to interchangeable characters, ones who's identity serve little function nor help advance the narrative in whichever way. These characters might have personalities, backgrounds, but nothing specific to them is actually needed within the story. These characters are often use to implement a given dose of humor, but not always.

Here are examples of "fluff" story arcs and/or character within the Stormlight Archive: Kaladin going horseback ridding, Lopen's cousins joining Bridge 4, a lot of the Bridge 4 interactions/scenes, Gaz working for Shallan and the list goes on. Why can we rightly qualify these story elements as "fluff"? Because they serve little other function then offering pure entertainment. Lopen's cousins aren't relevant, they aren't important: they are just funny. They don't need to be in the story, but the fact they are makes readers smile.

Each one of those scenes could have been removed from the story without impacting it, without changing the outcome nor the denouement. Gaz also isn't relevant. Shallan could have rescued a random deserter named Ramon whom would have fetch WoR for her: the fact it was Gaz who did it has no impact. He didn't do it because he was Gaz nor for any reason which we can tied in to the character named Gaz, but it makes this arc slightly more interesting that it was Gaz. It remains however, for the moment (as fluff arcs can end up becoming more, an example Lopen's character), something trivial, not really important. Sure getting the book was important, that it was Gaz specifically who did it isn't. The majority of Bridge 4 would also qualify as "fluff" most of those characters are interchangeable, most of story arcs revolving around them are "fluff". For instance, Drehy being homosexual is not important: it is just a nice touch to add to the story, it makes readers happy, but it does not have to be in it. Also, the fact it is Drehy also isn't important: it could have been Skar or Dunny or a random bridgemen named Paolo. Hence, it is fluff. It is amusing, but it isn't required. The main narrative could have done without it and/or it could have been significantly changed without impacting it in any visible way.

These all are valid examples of what can be referred to as "fluff", each are trivial, superficial which isn't to say they weren't fun to read nor did they help the story come to life. It means they aren't technically important to the main narrative and development surrounding characters involved in them is unlikely to be overly important.

Adolin's character, his actions, his behaviors and his viewpoints however aren't trivial nor superficial.

Why?

For one, there is the very obvious reason that Adolin has more viewpoint chapters than every single other characters apart from Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar. In the case of Dalinar, he is nearly equal and he even had a stronger presence within WoR. No author is ever going to waste so much words, page time, writing pure fluff revolving around a minor "supplement" character. This fact enough should be sufficient to dispel any notion wanting Adolin to be nothing more than "fluff" added to the story and/or a mere "supplement character". You write perhaps one chapter for a "fluff" character, a snippet, a scene, but not 30K worth of stories. You also don't give a cliffhanger arc to a "fluff" character. This is also why Moash is moving up the ladder of character: he can't be referred to as "minor side character" anymore. He has done things and these things are important, hence his character becomes important.

For two, Adolin was added to the story because without him, it fell apart. The first draft for WoK wasn't good: Dalinar's story arc didn't work out, not at all. He was boring and uninteresting mostly because his dilemma was completely internal. Adding Adolin made turn his dilemma from an internal bore to an external interesting one. Right here and there, Adolin served a valid purpose within the story. His presence was essential and, by definition, not trivial nor superficial, therefore certainly not "fluff". This is something Brandon himself expanded on quite often. 

For three, Adolin's actions have had a definite lasting impact onto the main narrative. It is through his winning of Shards that Dalinar managed to muster enough strength to dare attack the Parshendis. It was also this strength, which Adolin got him, which got other Highprinces to start respecting him more. Let's mot kid ourselves, the Alethi would have never followed Dalinar if they didn't think he could win and one of the reasons they thought he could was because he, once again, asserted himself as the strongest of them all. All this is made possible by Adolin and no, it couldn't have been done by any other character. No other character had the capacity to win so many Shards, no character would have been able to steer the kettle as much as Adolin and, perhaps more importantly, no other character would have both trapped himself and got out of the 4 on 1 duel. This story elements are crucial to the last denouement and only happened because Adolin is a character within this story. Also, considering one of the most memorable, talked about and loved climaxes within the story happens to revolve around Adolin should be enough to dispel further notion of his contribution being nothing more than "fluff". I could also add how Adolin was key to finding Urithiru and defeating the Parshendis. Nobody but him would have been able to secure a victory as he did: other more experienced leaders either failed or needed added forces to pull it off. Adolin's contribution cannot be reduced as trivial nor superficial as without him, Kaladin little fight in the sky would have had no impact because by the time the "hero" got there, everyone would have been dead. The only reason there still is an army to save, the only reason Shallan gets enough time to do her stuff is because Adolin defeated the enemy. No other reason. 

For fourth, Adolin murdering Sadeas is not trivial nor insignificant and it certainly isn't "fluff". He just killed one of the most powerful man in Alethkar and Stormlight Archive major villain so far. There will be repercussions which will have a lasting impact onto both his character, other characters and the main narratives. We know there will be an aftermath, we just do not know what it will be. So once again, as per the definition of "fluff" and "supplement character", Adolin has proven to be much more than that. 

I could go on and on, but I'll stop here. I believe I have raised more than enough point to dispel any notion wanting Adolin to be nothing more than a "minor side character who's sole purpose is to provide a bit of fluff and who's contribution resumes itself to discussing shipping"  It is thus Adolin is part of the "main cast", Brandon considers him part of the main cast, he just didn't make him one of the ten main protagonists, which only means "character having a flashback story". The author has repetitively stated that merely because someone didn't get a flashback book didn't mean this someone would not be important nor have story arcs, it just means he envisions those books following a given structure and the 10 characters he chose are the ones he needs for this structure to work. They aren't necessarily going to have the bigger overall story arc as Brandon did personally tell me Adolin's story arc would ultimately be bigger than Szeth. Adolin is very much part of the main cast, just as Navani is part of the main cast, but he (just as she) is a member with less focus than say Kaladin. What some of us are arguing for is for him to get slightly more or, at the very least, not less because that would be a tad disappointing and a severe drop from what other books allowed us to see.

19 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

I don't think the idea is baseless though. Consider this: Rock is a side character, lopen is a side character, gaz is a side character. Adolin is ALSO a side character. See what I am getting at? What I mean to say is that for someone who bran san thinks shouldn't be an important character, Adolin has done too much, has been given too many PoV chapters and what not. IMHO I think that is outgrowing his role.

Actually, Adolin is a tertiary character. So not only is he a tertiary character, he is the most important tertiary character: this is the term Brandon uses to classify him. Bridge 4 are minor supporting cast (there aren't on the chart while Adolin is on the chart). There is no doubt Adolin ranks much higher than anyone within Bridge 4 in terms of "character importance" (for now this is, we can't presume to know how the story will evolve, so huh maybe there will be surprises). 

IMHO, Adolin outgrown the minor character role when Brandon gave him viewpoints in WoK. He could have stopped his growth at WoR when his importance was much lesser, but he didn't. Hence, Adolin has grown and many readers loved it.

19 hours ago, SLNC said:

I don't know how Adolin (a side character) killing Sadeas (another side character) suddenly makes him part of the main cast. Side characters kill eachother all the time and to be honest, Adolin was the only one with a true motivation to kill Sadeas. Yes, Kaladin doesn't like him, but he doesn't hate him like Adolin does. So, what does Brandon do? He wants Sadeas gone, so Sadeas provokes Adolin to the brink of his patience and Adolin kills him. I really don't know, why this should make him a main character. I agree with @Rob Lucci, side characters can have meaningful arcs, without being part of the main cast. The Stormlight Archive is about the Knights Radiant. Adolin is not a Knight Radiant, thus he is not part of the main cast. At least, that's my reasoning. ( @Reborn radiant Because you replied after I started typing this reply )

I have a suspicion, why you so badly want him part of the main cast, @maxal. Because it is like life insurance. Brandon has stated in the past, that he does not like Adolin as a character and that gives the impression he might kill him off anytime. I think, let him. Fan service seldom does anything good to a story and this is Brandon's story to tell. Not ours. I am afraid Kaladin might die some stupid heroic death at the end of book 5. I would probably be devastated, but I'd live with it. I'd have to.

If anything, I'd put Adolin as an important side character, but he's still a side character. Why? Simply because the author says so.

As always, if I misinterpreted, then I apologize for that.

Sadeas isn't a side character: he was the main antagonist within the first two books completed with viewpoints. He is responsible for most of the action happening and he certainly has had a definite contribution which definitely makes him more than "just a side character". His death is not meaningless, it will not be meaningless to those involved and it certainly will cause ramifications which will impact the main narrative into major ways. Side characters perhaps kill each other several times over, but this particular murder carries on much more weight than Shallan killing Tyn (example). It is also written in a way which centers around Adolin's character more than the action itself.

Also, there is absolutely nothing which was ever stated about the Stormlight Archive solely being about the Knights Radiants nor was it ever stated the only characters of importance we would get would be knights. Adolin, as the only normal viewpoint character, is extraordinarily precious and many readers find his perspective to be incredibly valuable, especially given everyone else has become... a Radiant. Even if Adolin eventually becomes a Radiant, he will still remain incredibly valuable because his progression will be so different (happening within real time and not through some flashbacks giving us only half the answer) from other characters, it will become unique.

What people are referring to the "main cast" merely means "having flashbacks books", not just "having flashbacks" because Adolin is getting those too as well. The story is a deconstruction on the standard narrative process: not all flashback characters will have the same importance and nothing precludes "other characters" from having strong narrative as well. I personally take the term "main cast" is a slightly larger manner, including all characters having viewpoints, story arcs and potential future developments. For instance, Navani is also part of the main cast even we are to agree her importance is not the greatest. However, if you consider the term main cast to solely define the "characters getting a dedicated flashback book", then yes I would agree Adolin isn't one of them (currently), but it does not mean he has no importance nor that he doesn't deserve a story arc.

What Adolin currently isn't is one of those top three protagonists per book nor one of the major flashback character. He's typically number four. I would have hoped he could move up to three: he nearly was three in WoR. Also, Brandon never referred to Adolin as a "side character". He never actually used any other term but "tertiary character" which is also where Szeth is currently standing. What he said is Adolin was getting less viewpoints than say Kaladin, but he did say he had more than say Szeth. I also have to severely critic the idea Brandon writing a decent satisfying Adolin story arc within future books would be pure fan service. Fan service would have been if Brandon had decided, after noticing they garner the most support within the fandom, Shallan and Renarin were to be the major romance. He would be acting on reader's expectations which have no basis within the story as absolutely nothing, within canon, so much as hints towards a Shallan and Renarin romance. Adolin is absolutely not within this situation as reader's expectations are based onto the written canon: his story ended up on a cliffhanger. You don't write a cliffhanger not to deliver the aftermath later on. What readers are expecting to read if what happens next. That cannot be referred to as "fan service".

Also, being named a one of the top ten protagonists isn't life insurance, far from it, as Brandon confirmed some would die by the time their focus book arrives. What I wish for is for Adolin merely is to be considered a "protagonist" and not just some "minor side character".

17 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

The reason why I don't want Adolin to be a main character is because I just simply enjoy him too much as a complement to the main cast we already have. I don't think there's enough time to devote to a big story arc for Adolin when we still have Lift, Szeth, Dalinar etc. to take care of and the big Devastation to solve. The murder mystery and his romantic escapades are entertaining enough for me. That is Adolin's 'main story arc' as of now.

You are perfectly allowed not to be interested within further Adolin related development. You can't however diminish his importance to the main narrative, reducing him to a minor character, simply because it befits your interests best.

Take myself for instance. I don't like Szeth. I don't find him interesting and quite frankly, I couldn't care less about him having Nightblood. I don't like reading his voice, I find it eye-rolling, frustrating and downright boring. I nearly gave up reading WoK after reaching the Szeth prologue because I just didn't want to read a book where this guy was a protagonist. I however cannot pretend Szeth is an inconsequential minor character which could easily be removed from the story. I cannot underplay the importance he has had so far nor can I ignore the fact his story arc ends in a way which suggests more is coming. It may not please me, but I cannot purposefully diminish his character nor ignore the contribution he has had and might have.

Also, we do not know what level of importance Adolin will have to the ending climaxes. We cannot presume to know, so just because he isn't a Radiant does not mean he won't be interesting nor that he won't have a role to play nor that page time spend on his character will be a total waste of time and necessarily be less interesting than anything written for say any other named character.

Necessary commentary: I have had a lot of trouble with the tone into this post mostly because I'll admit to being slightly annoyed when I wrote it. I hope it doesn't come across as offensive nor anything negative, but I would like all to know I did struggle writing it down. It was hard to say what I wanted to say in a way which would serve my purpose. Sp if I somehow missed my intend, then apologies. I'll try again.

[Vissy]

You misunderstand me, and once again, you go on an incredibly long-winded tirade over it. Stop it. "Fluff" is the backstory surrounding any given character. In the sci-fi setting Warhammer 40k, for example, the "fluff" surrounding Space Marines determines what they can do, what they are like etc.

The reason why you can't pretend Szeth is inconsequential is because he is a confirmed main viewpoint character. Adolin is a side character with side character viewpoints. If he was to be a main character, Brandon would have to write an entire SA book about him, and that is not going to happen as we already know we will have a Dalinar book, a Szeth book and a Lift book (from what I remember, Eshonai might get a book as well now that I think about it).

And finally, you just keep restating your opinion without reading what others have said. You wouldn't have needed to get offended and write these huge wallposts if you'd just read the words 'Adolin can have interesting side-plots that tie in to the main story arc without being a main character'. We already agree, it's just that we call it different things.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

You misunderstand me, and once again, you go on an incredibly long-winded tirade over it. Stop it. "Fluff" is the backstory surrounding any given character. In the sci-fi setting Warhammer 40k, for example, the "fluff" surrounding Space Marines determines what they can do, what they are like etc.

The reason why you can't pretend Szeth is inconsequential is because he is a confirmed main viewpoint character. Adolin is a side character with side character viewpoints. If he was to be a main character, Brandon would have to write an entire SA book about him, and that is not going to happen as we already know we will have a Dalinar book, a Szeth book and a Lift book (from what I remember, Eshonai might get a book as well now that I think about it).

And finally, you just keep restating your opinion without reading what others have said. You wouldn't have needed to get offended and write these huge wallposts if you'd just read the words 'Adolin can have interesting side-plots that tie in to the main story arc without being a main character'. We already agree, it's just that we call it different things.

You cannot presume your interlocutors are going to be familiar with the meaning of a word other than the one universally agreed upon which would be the dictionary definition, especially when this meaning is tied in to a game you are wrongly presuming they are familiar with.

The word fluff means the following:

1. 1.

   soft fibers from fabrics such as wool or cotton that accumulate in small light clumps.

   "he brushed his sleeve to remove the fluff"

   synonyms:

   fuzz, lint, dust, dustballs, dust bunnies "fluff on her sleeve"

   •  
2. 2.

   entertainment or writing perceived as trivial or superficial.

   "the movie is a piece of typical Hollywood fluff"

I have checked several other references and all agree with this definition. I even checked the definition yesterday in order to make sure I was not misunderstanding and I found no evidence of other meanings. Also, Brandon Sanderson himself has use this very same term to describe chapters he wrote revolving around minor characters which he wasn't sure if he ought to keep in the book or remove as he felt they might be bad for the pacing. He felt they were fun, but overall trivial, hence he called them "fluff".

You thus cannot fault me nor accuse me of launching needless tirades on the basis of myself interpreting your statement as per the rightful meaning of the words you chose to use.  I will not be blame for it. 

I am done with this discussion: it is pointless, needlessly aggressive and very detrimental towards my person.