Adolin's actions at the end of WOR

[Reborn radiant]

I know, I know some of you are probably sick and tired of discussions on shallan's love life but I had an epiphany just a few moments ago and if this has already been posted, I am really sorry!

So,
I know many people in this forum are of the belief that adolin killing sadeas is going to put a strain on his relationship with shallan and eventually they are going to break up giving way to Shadolin ship (which I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate bdw) . I think it is more or less given that Adolin's act is going to undermine a lot of Dalinar's actions when it comes out, and that is going to be atleast an arch that is eventually going to run. In short, Adolin ruining his father's efforts.

Guess who else was responsible directly or indirectly for their father's downfall?
Shallan.

I know it is not really Shallan's fault that her mother tried to kill her. I know she is entirely right in killing her mother and the other dude. BUT, regardless of validity of her actions (especially considering that some would view Adolin's actions as valid), it is her actions and her father's love for her which made him take responsiblity for a crime he didn't commit that broke her father. He had to take blame, be ridiculed or scorned for something his daughter did. Yes he proceeded to break his family instead of just being broken, but you get my point. 

Now I imagine Dalinar is going to punish adolin one way or the other once this comes out. However much he punishes him, Dalinar is still going to suffer back lash from what Adolin did. But unlike Shallan's father, Dalinar will not break so easily. Just the way unlike shallan who murdered defense, Adolin murdered in offense.

I don't know if I am making any sense at all, but what I am saying is that Shallan's and Adolin's storylines are reflecting each other. So far, so far as we have seen, Kaladin and Shallan are exact opposites. By exact, I mean exactly that. Kaladin hating normal rains, shallan loving normal rains and things like that. That is what makes Shalladin too damned terrible for me. No couple is that well aligned, down to the very small things. But shallan and adolin, so far the only reason shallan liked adolin is because he is generally likeable and he is pretty good looking. But now, after sadeas' murder, Shallan and Adolin have mirroring storylines too. That makes them similar and dissimilar at the same time, just like a real life couple should be. So, fellow shadolin shippers, all hope is not lost yet ;-;

[ryshadium90]

Frankly, I am one the fence about this one. I appreciate both of the pairings. As much as Kaladin and Shallan are opposites, there's always that cliche that opposites attract but that's beside the point. They mirror each other as well because they are both hiding a kind of hurt that no one else has been able to understand. Shallan killed her father, and Kaladin has his issues with honor and family. The parallels between those is that they try so hard to be the person the others want to see, ye their personal conflicts kind of stop them from fulfilling that. Like in WoR, Kaladin was obsessed with making sure that he could keep up moral and keep out betrayal, giving everyone a fair enough chance, yet that fairness stops with lighteyes. Despite having Syl as his honrospren, it's still a struggle. Shallan is like that cracking vase, acting as both Veil and Brightness Davar. She keeps up the lies and such, as innate of a Radiant of her level, but it does wear on her, and soon she'll have to choose one or the other. (Hm, almost reminiscent of Vin and Valette.)

I like Adolin enough because he's sincere, ignoring the fact of his multiple failed relationships. And plus he's got a good relationship with Renarin. Kaladin is Kaladin. It's hard to not like him. But what might break his relationship with Shallan is when she finds out that she kills her brother. Sadeas is not exactly a fan of her's anyway, so Adolin being behind the dagger might not be too big of a thing. However, I almost feel like Shallan is still playing the "fake" fiance to Adolin. In the beginning of their relationship, it was her responsibility to get Adolin to like her enough to secure money for her home and the Soulcaster, really not for any romantic concerns. With Kaladin though, it was a mutual growth. Getting stuck in a chasm does that to you.

So yeah, not really agreeing, or disagreeing, but I like the points that you brought up.

[Radiant_Jaeger]

@Reborn radiant I like the idea of them becoming more aligned because of the murders. It could make Shallan the perfect person to comfort Adolin in the aftermath of his actions if he is feeling sick about what he did. Thus making them even closer! Nice!

[Reborn radiant]

9 hours ago, ryshadium90 said:

Frankly, I am one the fence about this one. I appreciate both of the pairings. As much as Kaladin and Shallan are opposites, there's always that cliche that opposites attract but that's beside the point. They mirror each other as well because they are both hiding a kind of hurt that no one else has been able to understand. Shallan killed her father, and Kaladin has his issues with honor and family. The parallels between those is that they try so hard to be the person the others want to see, ye their personal conflicts kind of stop them from fulfilling that. Like in WoR, Kaladin was obsessed with making sure that he could keep up moral and keep out betrayal, giving everyone a fair enough chance, yet that fairness stops with lighteyes. Despite having Syl as his honrospren, it's still a struggle. Shallan is like that cracking vase, acting as both Veil and Brightness Davar. She keeps up the lies and such, as innate of a Radiant of her level, but it does wear on her, and soon she'll have to choose one or the other. (Hm, almost reminiscent of Vin and Valette.)

I like Adolin enough because he's sincere, ignoring the fact of his multiple failed relationships. And plus he's got a good relationship with Renarin. Kaladin is Kaladin. It's hard to not like him. But what might break his relationship with Shallan is when she finds out that she kills her brother. Sadeas is not exactly a fan of her's anyway, so Adolin being behind the dagger might not be too big of a thing. However, I almost feel like Shallan is still playing the "fake" fiance to Adolin. In the beginning of their relationship, it was her responsibility to get Adolin to like her enough to secure money for her home and the Soulcaster, really not for any romantic concerns. With Kaladin though, it was a mutual growth. Getting stuck in a chasm does that to you.

So yeah, not really agreeing, or disagreeing, but I like the points that you brought up.

Agree with everything you said. I didn't mean to say that Kaladin and shallan being exactly opposites was unnatural, I was more along the lines of such couples are veeeeeeeery rare. 

[kari-no-sugata]

20 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

I don't know if I am making any sense at all, but what I am saying is that Shallan's and Adolin's storylines are reflecting each other. So far, so far as we have seen, Kaladin and Shallan are exact opposites. By exact, I mean exactly that. Kaladin hating normal rains, shallan loving normal rains and things like that. That is what makes Shalladin too damned terrible for me. No couple is that well aligned, down to the very small things. But shallan and adolin, so far the only reason shallan liked adolin is because he is generally likeable and he is pretty good looking. But now, after sadeas' murder, Shallan and Adolin have mirroring storylines too. That makes them similar and dissimilar at the same time, just like a real life couple should be. So, fellow shadolin shippers, all hope is not lost yet ;-;

I wouldn't say that Kaladin and Shallan are opposites in everything - they both hate being caged. But yeah, apart from generally being in favour of things most people would say that they're in favour of (life, health, happiness etc) they do tend to take very different approaches.

Anyway, going back to Shallan and Adolin, I don't think Shallan's killing of her mother and the effects on her father are particularly relevant to Adolin's killing of Sadeas and the effect on Dalinar. I think I get where you're coming from but we don't really know how it's going to affect Dalinar for a start. However, I would say that there's a number of parallels between Shallan's killing of her father and Adolin's killing of Sadeas.

• In both cases, it was something a long time in coming (from their perspective). Adolin has been agitating against Sadeas right from his very first POV chapter. Shallan clearly wasn't surprised at what her father did on that last day, given her "So it has come to this" thought. Though saying this, in both cases it was unplanned - they were responding to events. I would say that they were (somewhat) mentally prepared in advance, with Shallan going a bit further and having poison ready.
• In both cases, they weren't being directly threatened but responded to protect their family, who were.
• In both cases, they knew it was "wrong" but did it anyway, because they couldn't stand by and do nothing. (Not that they specifically think this but I think it's reasonably clear from their actions and thoughts). In Shallan's case, Balat did try but was ineffective.
• In both cases, it's doubtful whether anyone would truly regret the victim's death (hard to say about Ialai)
• In both cases, the person who "should" have taken action failed to do so. In Shallan's case, this would be Helaran. In Adolin's case this would be Dalinar.

Naturally there are differences too. Emotionally, Shallan was "cold" while Adolin was "hot". There's also the practical difference that Shallan had witnesses while Adolin had none (Sadeas doesn't count).

It's quite hard to predict exactly what will happen because that would depend a lot on how events unfold. Theoretically, Adolin could get away with it publicly. However, if Adolin is strongly suspected then it could cause political problems. But there will be much bigger issues going on - dealing with the Everstorm will be far more important. Shallan's reaction is hard to predict because it will depend on what she hears, from whom, in what order etc. I think it's quite likely that if Shallan hears directly from Adolin about what happened and why then she would sympathise with him. I think he would have the backing of the army.

I've no idea if/when Kaladin and Jasnah will turn up to be able to influence such events. Kaladin would be quite conflicted I'm sure. Jasnah would probably wonder why they hadn't killed the guy sooner - given how she's willing to employ assassins to protect her family it would seem quite strange for her not to defend Adolin nor admonish Dalinar.

What I'm hoping to see is Dalinar reflect on his actions. He was too soft on Sadeas and Amaram. I think he's over-compensating for his warlord years (or something like that). I'm not saying he should have killed Sadeas or Amaram but he was definitely negligent. He also needs to reflect on his attitude towards Adolin. He definitely needs to improve and I'm expecting that this will tie into his growth as a Bondsmith.

[maxal]

How Shallan might react to Adolin murdering Sadeas has been discussed various times. In short, there are two lines of thought: one which want Shallan to associate Adolin's action to her father's. After all, he was angry when he did the deed which many readers associate as something heavily negative. The other line of thought believes Shallan would sympathize with Adolin as she too once was in a position where she needed to kill someone to protect her family. 

My personal thoughts are the situation is complex. While Adolin did lose control of himself, he did have reasons to do the deed: Sadeas did declare his intentions to destroy Adolin's family not caring about the collateral damage, meaning how many civilian/soldiers he might have to slaughter to reach his goal. The man also was a traitor to his country as he also did state his intention to murder the king in a previous encounter, namely within the stormcellar. Adding those behaviors to his betrayal of an ally in a time of war, I would say a pretty strong argument could be made Sadeas had to be taken care of. Legally taken cared of would have obviously been preferable, but it appears nobody was willing to go down this road.

I think if all involved characters calm down, take the time to actually listen to Adolin's tale, they might be inclined towards leniency. The problem is I have a very hard time thinking Dalinar will actually be fair with his son. Dalinar has many flaws. He is over-compensating for his former years as the Blackthorn, but he also attempting to over-compensate for having spent years being jealousy Gavilar. He also has a hard time accepting his former friendship with Sadeas is terminated and yeah, I agree with @kari-no-sugata above, he has failed to deal with Sadeas adequately. The only plan he came up with was to throw Adolin into the dueling arena, have him win as many Shards as possible (to the risk of losing his own and/or getting injured) with as much fanfare as possible not thinking of how big of a target it put on Adolin's back.

More of my thoughts are Dalinar has a chip over his shoulder: he has to reflect on how he is allowing his feelings to guide how he deals with people. He needs to reflect on how he has treated Sadeas and Amaram next to how he has treated Adolin. That one deserve someone in his family to actually care about what happens to him because right now, it feels as if Dalinar thinks of Adolin as a tool, not a son. 

[Reborn radiant]

10 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

What I'm hoping to see is Dalinar reflect on his actions. He was too soft on Sadeas and Amaram. I think he's over-compensating for his warlord years (or something like that). I'm not saying he should have killed Sadeas or Amaram but he was definitely negligent. He also needs to reflect on his attitude towards Adolin. He definitely needs to improve and I'm expecting that this will tie into his growth as a Bondsmith.

Agree. But I do think Dalinar can be quite strict, especially now that he is directly the head of anti-everstorm force. He is used to taking hard decisions so I think he will be soft anymore in Oathbringer. I do not see how he can excuse Adolin though. It is something Dalinar wouldn't approve of, and what more it sets a precedent that murder is acceptable. Adolin will be in trouble. I agree with you in that we do not know clearly how it will affect Dalinar, but form a purely practical PoV, it is going to cause him a lot of trouble.

 

10 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Anyway, going back to Shallan and Adolin, I don't think Shallan's killing of her mother and the effects on her father are particularly relevant to Adolin's killing of Sadeas and the effect on Dalinar. I think I get where you're coming from but we don't really know how it's going to affect Dalinar for a start. However, I would say that there's a number of parallels between Shallan's killing of her father and Adolin's killing of Sadeas.

NOW THIS. Now this, I can't believe I missed! Yes. This is true. This actually makes more sense than my interpretation of those actions :"D

[kari-no-sugata]

11 hours ago, maxal said:

I think if all involved characters calm down, take the time to actually listen to Adolin's tale, they might be inclined towards leniency. The problem is I have a very hard time thinking Dalinar will actually be fair with his son. Dalinar has many flaws. He is over-compensating for his former years as the Blackthorn, but he also attempting to over-compensate for having spent years being jealousy Gavilar. He also has a hard time accepting his former friendship with Sadeas is terminated and yeah, I agree with @kari-no-sugata above, he has failed to deal with Sadeas adequately. The only plan he came up with was to throw Adolin into the dueling arena, have him win as many Shards as possible (to the risk of losing his own and/or getting injured) with as much fanfare as possible not thinking of how big of a target it put on Adolin's back.

It's especially interesting to contrast Dalinar's plan with what Shallan came up with just 8 days after turning up in the warcamps. Shallan's approach was much more direct and was very close to being successful. I wonder what Dalinar thought of it.

As a side note, it also shows Shallan applying what she was taught to do by Jasnah - learn from history to help the present.

 

11 hours ago, maxal said:

More of my thoughts are Dalinar has a chip over his shoulder: he has to reflect on how he is allowing his feelings to guide how he deals with people. He needs to reflect on how he has treated Sadeas and Amaram next to how he has treated Adolin. That one deserve someone in his family to actually care about what happens to him because right now, it feels as if Dalinar thinks of Adolin as a tool, not a son. 

I don't believe Dalinar thinks of Adolin as a tool - I get where you're coming from but I don't think it's quite so unfeeling.

The way I see it, Dalinar's attitude towards Adolin is problematic on a number of levels. Dalinar doesn't want Adolin to make the same mistakes he did. That's fair enough but he's going further than that - he wants Adolin to live up to Dalinar's ideal of what an Alethi should be like. But he's not giving Adolin the option the choose. He's also not giving proper consideration to the circumstances. It's all very well to want your son to be a white sheep amongst a flock of black sheep but given how the Alethi actually are in practice it's more like he wants Adolin to be a white sheep amongst wolves. Ideals are all very well but there are practical limits. There's also moral and ethical considerations.

So I'm hoping that Dalinar will come to the realisation that his ideals for Adolin were overly narrow and also impractical. He needs to raise the level of the whole of society. He is starting to think about these things (and has been since he started learning from the in-world tWoK book) but he needs to learn from his mistakes, broaden his perspective, think things through more deeply and so on. I'm pretty sure that Jasnah would be the best person (that we know of) to discuss these things with, though I'm sure the others can help. Shallan would probably be better at helping him realise where he's gone wrong on the small scale.

On a side note, there's another parallel between Adolin and Shallan here: Shallan's father wanted her to be perfect and live up to his ideals. However, he took things to extremes and would beat up servants if she made any mistakes. This forced Shallan to "become the perfect daughter" against her will to an extreme degree, effectively forcing her to learn to act the "perfect daughter". There was no room for discussion and it was completely one-sided. Adolin gets off lightly in comparison but that doesn't make it okay either.

 

4 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

Agree. But I do think Dalinar can be quite strict, especially now that he is directly the head of anti-everstorm force. He is used to taking hard decisions so I think he will be soft anymore in Oathbringer. I do not see how he can excuse Adolin though. It is something Dalinar wouldn't approve of, and what more it sets a precedent that murder is acceptable. Adolin will be in trouble. I agree with you in that we do not know clearly how it will affect Dalinar, but form a purely practical PoV, it is going to cause him a lot of trouble.

It will definitely cause Dalinar "trouble" but also a lot of mental stress. Perhaps more so than dealing with the Everstorm!

From all sorts of perspectives it will cause Dalinar problems but here's some thoughts on the legal perspective: it's all very well to say that Adolin's actions should be dealt with as the law says but Dalinar has conspicuously failed to do the same thing for Sadeas, Amaram and others. In other words, at a practical level the law is already a farce and the Alethi are long used to ignoring it. Having glaring inconsistencies in how the law is applied makes it a farce and is not the sort of thing that a strong and stable society can be built upon. So on the one hand Dalinar needs to improve this situation but on the other hand he also needs to recognise that he's part of the problem, which is also precisely what lead to Adolin's actions against Sadeas. I feel that if Dalinar doesn't realise and accept the bigger problem and come up with some good solutions then ultimately he will fail.

What this means for Adolin I don't know. I don't know if it would be legal but maybe the "best" solution is to put Adolin on trial... and also Sadeas, retrospectively - and also any others who have been "getting away with it". Effectively to draw a line in the sand and say "from now on, expect the law to apply to everyone". From a practical level, if Sadeas is retrospectively stripped of his titles etc then Adolin's crimes would become smaller.

One idea I like is that Adolin is found guilty and as punishment is disowned... and then Shallan takes him in and he effectively becomes her knight, and their romantic relationship continues. Hopefully then Adolin can become the person he wants to be instead of the person Dalinar wants him to be. I guess that also effectively means that he'd be marrying into her household rather than the other way around.

[ryshadium90]

Not sure if this has already been mentioned before, but Dalinar's views of Adolin are a little skewed, so it is hard to draw that line between being a son and another person "under" him. For one, being a highprince, Dalinar has to set a certain example. Yes, the law is kind kaput, but not following it is still less help than trying to follow it sometimes. He would have to judge his son fairly for murder, but taken in consideration for all the things that Sadeas had done, the punishments might be a little more equal.

But then, there's Dalinar's even more personal opinions. I feel like Adolin and Renarin are almost a bit of shadow between Dalinar and Gavilar. Yes, the younger brothers are a bit different in characteristics, but the difference between the two is that the elder one usually gets the most attention, is the one that most people rely on. As a father, Dalinar would see Adolin with all the love as a father can, not like he's an unfeeling monster, but there is still that remembrance that because he is the father, he should be able to have more control over his son who reflects his sibling. In that, I'm not really sure if that would equate into the level of punishments, but it would help describe the level of conflict that the two often get into. And poor Adolin. He's never good at relationships with women, and if that extends to relationships with anyone (except Renarin), then he will never notice his father's past recollections.

However, being a Bondsmith, he has to decide whether or not following whichever one of his opinions, will bring the people together. At this point, with the Everstorm on their doorstep, the law is kind of down the drain. Sometimes going against the law is the best way to unite people, instead of forcing them to a law that they obviously are not a fan of following. 

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

One idea I like is that Adolin is found guilty and as punishment is disowned... and then Shallan takes him in and he effectively becomes her knight, and their romantic relationship continues. Hopefully then Adolin can become the person he wants to be instead of the person Dalinar wants him to be. I guess that also effectively means that he'd be marrying into her household rather than the other way around.

I really like that idea! Adolin might be a little shocked at this point, because now his father, brother, friend (Kaladin, I'm just calling them friends, whether they like it or not), and fiance, are all Knights Radiant. Becoming Shallan's knight would give him more confidence, as Shallan's style is not exactly the slice and dice method.

[WhiteLeeopard]

I agree that Dalinar has a chip on his shoulder. But I don't necesarily agree with all that has been said here. The way I see it Dalinar will have to become very. very flexible if he wants to lead the KR, unless he just wants to lead the Windrunners and Skybreakers. And I honestly don't see how he (or anyone) can hope to rule a country and lead an order of knights with a set of values that most people can't/won't follow. Either Alethkar will become ruled by the KR in some way, or they will completely separate. But the other way around (Alethi ruling KR) seems laughable for many reasons, both laws and feasibility. Which might imply that Dalinar may also need to learn to both be flexible and listen. The issue with Adolin could be a good way to start learning, and possibly separating tasks.

[Reborn radiant]

11 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

From all sorts of perspectives it will cause Dalinar problems but here's some thoughts on the legal perspective: it's all very well to say that Adolin's actions should be dealt with as the law says but Dalinar has conspicuously failed to do the same thing for Sadeas, Amaram and others. In other words, at a practical level the law is already a farce and the Alethi are long used to ignoring it. Having glaring inconsistencies in how the law is applied makes it a farce and is not the sort of thing that a strong and stable society can be built upon. So on the one hand Dalinar needs to improve this situation but on the other hand he also needs to recognise that he's part of the problem, which is also precisely what lead to Adolin's actions against Sadeas. I feel that if Dalinar doesn't realise and accept the bigger problem and come up with some good solutions then ultimately he will fail.

What you are quite forgetting is the fact that Dalinar didn't have any power to 'punish' sadeas or amaram legally. Sadeas is a high prince, more over punishing him would have meant breaking the kingdom down. Amaram belongs to sadeas' princedom. Dalinar has no authority to punish him. If dalinar goes about punishing people as he sees fit, what use is Eholkar? Eholkar is already a weak king, Dalianar being even more assertive than he is now will make him even more weaker.

More over, what would be the difference between what Adolin did and Dalinar punishing others without power?

Quite simply, Dalinar didn't punish Sadeas because he couldn't. Yes he could have waged a war, but to what end? Dalinar had his eyes set on dealing with problems of parshendi and undermining sadeas the legal way. Not the otherway around. It is a chip on his shoulder, yes, but not as big as what you guys are making it out to be, I think.
 

6 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Either Alethkar will become ruled by the KR in some way, or they will completely separate. But the other way around (Alethi ruling KR) seems laughable for many reasons, both laws and feasibility.

I can't see KR ruling any nation. KR is essentially a mercenary unit. I can't see them being in power much longer after Desolation ends.
 

 

Edited May 12, 2017 by Reborn radiant
grammatical error

[maxal]

16 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

Agree. But I do think Dalinar can be quite strict, especially now that he is directly the head of anti-everstorm force. He is used to taking hard decisions so I think he will be soft anymore in Oathbringer. I do not see how he can excuse Adolin though. It is something Dalinar wouldn't approve of, and what more it sets a precedent that murder is acceptable. Adolin will be in trouble. I agree with you in that we do not know clearly how it will affect Dalinar, but form a purely practical PoV, it is going to cause him a lot of trouble.

Reactions from all involved parties are very hard to predict. There are several valid rational to be have with the scene. On one side, you are right in saying Dalinar cannot set a precedent in allowing a murder to go unpunished. If he is to claim the higher moral ground, if he is to fight to built a stronger, fairer, righter Alethkar, then he cannot be seen bending the law for his own son, especially not for his own son. On the other side, Sadeas was a traitor to his country, he did betray an ally at a time of war which makes his assassination understandable, justifiable even, according to the Alethi morality. If Dalinar is seen to follow the hard line for his son by punishing him for a crime which many do not think should be one, then it might have the reverse effect. Would you blindly follow the man who is ready to throw his own son under the bus? If he does it to his own heir, what will he do to others who might disagree with him? 

It is thus I feel there are two sides to this discussions and both are valid. I could see both happening, both are interesting.

10 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It's especially interesting to contrast Dalinar's plan with what Shallan came up with just 8 days after turning up in the warcamps. Shallan's approach was much more direct and was very close to being successful. I wonder what Dalinar thought of it.

As a side note, it also shows Shallan applying what she was taught to do by Jasnah - learn from history to help the present.

To me, this event gives credence to my personal perspective wanting Dalinar not to be such a great tactician and/or strategist. His strategies usually involves him being stronger, bigger, meaner and pitching his stronger, bigger, meaner forces against the opponent. It is basically what he tries to accomplish by having Adolin win Shards for him and thus allowing him to become, once again, threatening. 

Shallan is more sneaky, hence she chose a less obvious approach... which was brilliant. They did succeed in trapping Sadeas, they just inadvertently pitched Adolin against four opponents which forced Kaladin to involve himself thus screwing the plan.

11 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I don't believe Dalinar thinks of Adolin as a tool - I get where you're coming from but I don't think it's quite so unfeeling.

The way I see it, Dalinar's attitude towards Adolin is problematic on a number of levels. Dalinar doesn't want Adolin to make the same mistakes he did. That's fair enough but he's going further than that - he wants Adolin to live up to Dalinar's ideal of what an Alethi should be like. But he's not giving Adolin the option the choose. He's also not giving proper consideration to the circumstances. It's all very well to want your son to be a white sheep amongst a flock of black sheep but given how the Alethi actually are in practice it's more like he wants Adolin to be a white sheep amongst wolves. Ideals are all very well but there are practical limits. There's also moral and ethical considerations.

So I'm hoping that Dalinar will come to the realisation that his ideals for Adolin were overly narrow and also impractical. He needs to raise the level of the whole of society. He is starting to think about these things (and has been since he started learning from the in-world tWoK book) but he needs to learn from his mistakes, broaden his perspective, think things through more deeply and so on. I'm pretty sure that Jasnah would be the best person (that we know of) to discuss these things with, though I'm sure the others can help. Shallan would probably be better at helping him realise where he's gone wrong on the small scale.

On a side note, there's another parallel between Adolin and Shallan here: Shallan's father wanted her to be perfect and live up to his ideals. However, he took things to extremes and would beat up servants if she made any mistakes. This forced Shallan to "become the perfect daughter" against her will to an extreme degree, effectively forcing her to learn to act the "perfect daughter". There was no room for discussion and it was completely one-sided. Adolin gets off lightly in comparison but that doesn't make it okay either.

I don't think he is unfeeling either. I do think Dalinar loves Adolin, but he isn't allowing himself to show it because he has too many chips over his shoulder to deal with. Dalinar's entire character has been strongly defined by his relationship with Gavilar, his older, more handsome, smarter, more talented brother who ended not only marrying the woman he loved, but also sitting on a throne while he did all the dirty work. He was mad jealous of Gavilar, but for each second he spend cultivating this jealousy, he spend twice as much beating himself over for feeling this way. Hence it is his current day relationships are heavily influenced by his past. 

Adolin just ended up drawing the short straw: his character flaws (mostly his impulsiveness) reminds him of his youth while his outside strengths (older more handsome, more talented brother) reminds him of Gavilar. It is thus Dalinar feels he ought to be hard on Adolin, to force him to walk what he perceives to be the right path (because he reminds him of himself) while refusing the open love he so freely gives to others (because he reminds him of the brother he was so jealous of). In the end, my thoughts are Dalinar wants Adolin to be what he wants him to be when he wants him to be it: do not duel when I tell you so, but duel mercilessly if I say so. 

I am hoping Dalinar will realize he has been unfair with Adolin, needlessly hard. I hope he will realize Adolin is neither the Blackthorn nor Gavilar, he is his own person and deserves to be treated as such. My thoughts are his third oath will deal with this aspect of leadership: you have to be guiding without being controlling and sometimes, you have to forgive.

I agree about the parallel being drawn in between Shallan and Adolin's upbringing. I also agree how they both took heed to it, they both try to follow it up until they couldn't anymore. Shallan did get it harder because her family was downright abusive and unloving, but at least, Lin wasn't openly doting on his other children. She remained the favorite, well, in a very twisted way. What I find hard with Adolin is how Dalinar is seen to basically excuse anything Elhokar and/or Renarin do, so obviously loving them. His bias towards his younger son is very apparent: he states himself how emphatic he feels towards Renarin for being the second son of a more successful brother. He even wonders why Renarin does not hate Adolin... as if he were him, he would. Just to make it clear, I am not arguing Shallan's ordeal was lighter, it wasn't, I am simply arguing it could have been worst had Lin doted on one of his other kid.

11 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It will definitely cause Dalinar "trouble" but also a lot of mental stress. Perhaps more so than dealing with the Everstorm!

From all sorts of perspectives it will cause Dalinar problems but here's some thoughts on the legal perspective: it's all very well to say that Adolin's actions should be dealt with as the law says but Dalinar has conspicuously failed to do the same thing for Sadeas, Amaram and others. In other words, at a practical level the law is already a farce and the Alethi are long used to ignoring it. Having glaring inconsistencies in how the law is applied makes it a farce and is not the sort of thing that a strong and stable society can be built upon. So on the one hand Dalinar needs to improve this situation but on the other hand he also needs to recognise that he's part of the problem, which is also precisely what lead to Adolin's actions against Sadeas. I feel that if Dalinar doesn't realise and accept the bigger problem and come up with some good solutions then ultimately he will fail.

What this means for Adolin I don't know. I don't know if it would be legal but maybe the "best" solution is to put Adolin on trial... and also Sadeas, retrospectively - and also any others who have been "getting away with it". Effectively to draw a line in the sand and say "from now on, expect the law to apply to everyone". From a practical level, if Sadeas is retrospectively stripped of his titles etc then Adolin's crimes would become smaller.

One idea I like is that Adolin is found guilty and as punishment is disowned... and then Shallan takes him in and he effectively becomes her knight, and their romantic relationship continues. Hopefully then Adolin can become the person he wants to be instead of the person Dalinar wants him to be. I guess that also effectively means that he'd be marrying into her household rather than the other way around.

Dalinar once stated each time he had to learn a lesson, he had to do it the hard way. One of his reasons to be so hard on Adolin is to force him to learn those very same lessons without going through the ordeal he went through. The problem is he failed to realize he was creating the ordeal... This being said, if Dalinar is to learn a lesson, chances are it will be the hard way and I fear what the hard way might be when it comes towards learning to forgive Adolin, to allow him to be his own person.

Thus, I feel Dalinar will only recognize his own implications when his back will be put to the wall, when his true feelings for his son will resurface and made him see his actions from another perspective.

I personally like the trial idea where Sadeas is destitute which allows Adolin to walk away with a minor punishment. I have also wondered how the people might react to it. I noticed how, at the end of the 4 on 1 duel, the lighteyes have gone quiet while the darkeyes were cheering.... Soldiers like Adolin. Soldiers respect Adolin. Soldiers hated Sadeas. Soldiers do not care about the political game and there are many more soldiers than Highprinces. Will the army openly support Adolin? Will they move their support from Dalinar to Adolin? A man is only as powerful as his people allow him to be.... Could it happen?

I have thought of story arcs where Adolin and Shallan elopes when Adolin is exiled and disowned. I wouldn't mind if such story arcs were to be explored.

8 hours ago, ryshadium90 said:

Not sure if this has already been mentioned before, but Dalinar's views of Adolin are a little skewed, so it is hard to draw that line between being a son and another person "under" him. For one, being a highprince, Dalinar has to set a certain example. Yes, the law is kind kaput, but not following it is still less help than trying to follow it sometimes. He would have to judge his son fairly for murder, but taken in consideration for all the things that Sadeas had done, the punishments might be a little more equal.

But then, there's Dalinar's even more personal opinions. I feel like Adolin and Renarin are almost a bit of shadow between Dalinar and Gavilar. Yes, the younger brothers are a bit different in characteristics, but the difference between the two is that the elder one usually gets the most attention, is the one that most people rely on. As a father, Dalinar would see Adolin with all the love as a father can, not like he's an unfeeling monster, but there is still that remembrance that because he is the father, he should be able to have more control over his son who reflects his sibling. In that, I'm not really sure if that would equate into the level of punishments, but it would help describe the level of conflict that the two often get into. And poor Adolin. He's never good at relationships with women, and if that extends to relationships with anyone (except Renarin), then he will never notice his father's past recollections.

However, being a Bondsmith, he has to decide whether or not following whichever one of his opinions, will bring the people together. At this point, with the Everstorm on their doorstep, the law is kind of down the drain. Sometimes going against the law is the best way to unite people, instead of forcing them to a law that they obviously are not a fan of following. 

I don't think Dalinar's behavior happens because he wants Adolin to be a strong example for Renarin. I think it is multi-factorial. The hard rules, the hard lines exist because he wants Adolin to grow into the man he feels he ought to have been. He only sees one way to get there and it is the hard one. The impersonal relationship where everyone besides Adolin seems to be on Dalinar's softer side, I think it comes from Gavilar. While Renarin is the second son, the one Dalinar over-compensate with for having felt inadequate next to his own brother, Elhokar is the one he dotes on to absolve his guilt for feeling jealous of Gavilar. Kaladin is the son he wished he had. Adolin just happens to be the perfect mix of everything which ever got onto Dalinar's bad side: his younger self, his jealousy towards Gavilar while having none of what Dalinar praises such impeccable honor combined with impressive deeds onto the battlefield (the dueling ring does not count).

I think Adolin do notice... but he has grown up accepting he just wasn't worthy of his parent's attention. When feeling inadequate, Adolin's reaction is to work harder, to push harder, to try harder to be... perfect.

One thing is certain, Dalinar's dilemma will be interesting to read.

6 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I agree that Dalinar has a chip on his shoulder. But I don't necesarily agree with all that has been said here. The way I see it Dalinar will have to become very. very flexible if he wants to lead the KR, unless he just wants to lead the Windrunners and Skybreakers. And I honestly don't see how he (or anyone) can hope to rule a country and lead an order of knights with a set of values that most people can't/won't follow. Either Alethkar will become ruled by the KR in some way, or they will completely separate. But the other way around (Alethi ruling KR) seems laughable for many reasons, both laws and feasibility. Which might imply that Dalinar may also need to learn to both be flexible and listen. The issue with Adolin could be a good way to start learning, and possibly separating tasks.

I think a lot of people do agree Dalinar needs to learn how to be more flexible if he is to grow into a capable leader.

[Reborn radiant]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

On the other side, Sadeas was a traitor to his country, he did betray an ally at a time of war which makes his assassination understandable, justifiable even, according to the Alethi morality. If Dalinar is seen to follow the hard line for his son by punishing him for a crime which many do not think should be one, then it might have the reverse effect. Would you blindly follow the man who is ready to throw his own son under the bus? If he does it to his own heir, what will he do to others who might disagree with him? 

aren't you forgetting a main ideal tho? Journey before destination.
IT doesn't matter that the end result - that of sadeas dying - is morally just. It also matters how the result was obtained. A radiant should prefer honorably punishing sadeas, with proper formality and everything, not killing him off secretly. You know, just the same reason why Kal didn't want to kill eholkar that way. If you have to kill someone, kill them in broad daylight, for the right reasons yes but also following the right rules and regulations. No matter how much political or practical gain Dalinar can garner by making it seem like it was a justified punishment, the act goes against the Journey before destination, atleast as far as Dalinar is concerned. To Adolin, It is not much of a problem because in his view he had been on this journey - the one that was going to end with him killing sadeas - for far too long. But Dalinar just doesn't think that way.

[Radiant_Jaeger]

Welp since everyone's arguments and points include nearly a page each all I shall say is this, (in my finest batman voice) "JUSTICE!"

[Calderis]

9 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

aren't you forgetting a main ideal tho? Journey before destination.
IT doesn't matter that the end result - that of sadeas dying - is morally just. It also matters how the result was obtained.

The problem here is that honor is subjective. Brandon has stated that what Adolin did would be acceptable to more than one order. 

Look at it this way. If someone has done everything that Sadeas has, and knows that there is no fear of legal reprisal, then the law has failed. In that case the law is unjust and honor requires independent action.

While I don't think Windrunners would be alright without outright murder, even they view right and law separately. 

In short, the first Ideal and Adolin's actions are not incompatible. To most they would be, but subjectivity makes things complicated. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by Calderis

[maxal]

17 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

aren't you forgetting a main ideal tho? Journey before destination.
IT doesn't matter that the end result - that of sadeas dying - is morally just. It also matters how the result was obtained. A radiant should prefer honorably punishing sadeas, with proper formality and everything, not killing him off secretly. You know, just the same reason why Kal didn't want to kill eholkar that way. If you have to kill someone, kill them in broad daylight, for the right reasons yes but also following the right rules and regulations. No matter how much political or practical gain Dalinar can garner by making it seem like it was a justified punishment, the act goes against the Journey before destination, atleast as far as Dalinar is concerned. To Adolin, It is not much of a problem because in his view he had been on this journey - the one that was going to end with him killing sadeas - for far too long. But Dalinar just doesn't think that way.

Killing thugs in an alleyway in order to prevent additional women from being molested is also morally right.

It is however unlawful and dishonorable.

Unlawful because one isn't allowed to condone his own justice: taking onto oneself to kill thugs is the equivalent as taking onto oneself to kill a traitor and a mass murderer. One could even argue the second one posed a much bigger threat than the small town thugs. Brandon also agrees one is much worst than the other.

Dishonorable because purposefully trapping the thugs with the intend to kill them is not honorable, neither is slaying them as they are running away. Killing someone in the back, no matter how despicable and/or deserving is never honorable.

And thus nobody is arguing a to whether or not Jasnah deserves to be a Radiant nor are they arguing as to whether or not her actions violated the first ideal.

I could also argue Shallan poisoning and strangulating her father also is dishonorable as honor implies a fair fight into which both parties have a decent chance of winning. It was morally right, oh so morally right, but honorable? Not quite so. There is nothing honorable in bringing a poisoned cup of wine to someone who trusts you, no matter how justified you are in doing so. Thus any assassination attempt could be seen as dishonorable and would likely be frown upon by Windrunners, but honor is not a finality by itself. It isn't always the answer.

This is another one against Jasnah whom has been operating an assassin network.

It is thus the definition of the first ideal fluctuates greatly from one order to the next. Elsecallers do not define the journey in the same manner as Windrunners do. For Windrunners, being honorable is the journey, but for other orders, it might be the journey is to know when to take action, even if there are risks associate to them. Jasnah, Shallan and Lift's journeys aren't about them needing to be honorable. Their paths is... different.

Adolin's action are thus not against the first ideal nor would they be frowned upon by all orders. Windrunners, Skybreakers and probably Bondsmight wouldn't agree, but these are three orders out of 10. I would also point out, if Dalinar wants to rule, then he cannot impose the Bondsmith's ways of thinking to everyone as, as it can be observed, many orders dichonomy go straight against the straight/rigid notion of honor he seems to have. There are times where leniency is the right path to follow because ruling isn't just about applying laws and honor code, it is also about knowing when morality takes over.

Adolin murdering Sadeas was unlawful, but it can be argued the law is unfair as it allowed Sadeas to go unpunished for a greater crime. It is also dishonorable because he jumped on his opponent without taking the time to warn in advance. It remains however more honorable than Jasnah's killing of the thugs as Sadeas did have a decent chance of fighting back, the thugs didn't. The fight was even and had Sadeas known about Adolin's injuries, he would have most likely won (it is easy to disarm a man with a broken wrist who needs to rely on his injured hand to get enough strength).

It isn't however against the first ideal as it may be the journey, for Adolin, was to do just that: to act when honor bond orders refuse to.

To take up the higher moral stance and to state you will not allow bullies to win.

To stop listening to all his father is saying.

To be him.

I say, Adolin isn't putting the end before the means, because killing Sadeas isn't the end, it is the journey. Also Kaladin/Dalinar aren't always right in everything they do as honor isn't always the right answer to every problem.

[Reborn radiant]

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

The problem here is that honor is subjective. Brandon has stated that what Adolin did would be acceptable to more than one order. 

I know. That is why I included to Dalianar in the end

 

5 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin's action are thus not against the first ideal nor would they be frowned upon by

Once again. I am not saying Adolin's actions go against the first ideal. I am saying Dalianar's outright acceptance of it is. The ideals and their meanings depend on the perspective of the radiant. To someone like Dalianar, this would be against first ideal

[maxal]

Just now, Reborn radiant said:

Once again. I am not saying Adolin's actions go against the first ideal. I am saying Dalianar's outright acceptance of it is. The ideals and their meanings depend on the perspective of the radiant. To someone like Dalianar, this would be against first ideal

Except Dalinar can't take decisions for others solely based on his own oaths: in other words, he can't force everyone to behave like Bondsmiths. If he does so, he will be in conflict with many: he will be force to put water into his wine. Obviously, I do not expect Dalinar to accept Adolin's actions, but I do expect him eventually have a denouement where he realizes there is more to being guiding than imposing his will onto others. Also, Dalinar cannot treat Adolin as if he were a Radiant, forcing him to obey an oath he hasn't said in a way an order he is completely unsuitable for would wish him to.

My favorite outcome would be for Dalinar to first react very harshly, but later come to realize, as Adolin literally crumbles down and/or sinks down in whichever ways the author sees fit to implement, he might have been unfair towards his son. I really want to read this moment where Dalinar suddenly realizes he was too harsh and he can't sacrifice Adolin over Sadeas not because the law says he can't, but because he loves his son and unity must first come from within. In other words, to unite the world, he should start by uniting his family and keeping them strong. 

[Calderis]

@Reborn radiant ah, I did misunderstand. While I think part of Dalinar's role as bondsmith means he's going to have to learn and accept that other people's values can be as valid as his own (and Adolin may be a big part of learning that), his current outlook won't allow him to accept what Adolin has done because he will view it as contrary to the first ideal. 

I understand now, and I agree. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

Is it my imagination or is this topic officially the one most likely to resurface into a hot discussion every 2 weeks max? Yes, many other things are discussed, but I can always rely on this one popping up as soon as things are getting quiet XD. Something for which I'm actually happy as Adolin is one of 2 characters I'm most interested in seeing in Oathbringer and this usually churns out a new perspective. (Other one been Szeth, but for some reason he creates nowhere close to the Adolin frenzy)

[maxal]

19 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Is it my imagination or is this topic officially the one most likely to resurface into a hot discussion every 2 weeks max? Yes, many other things are discussed, but I can always rely on this one popping up as soon as things are getting quiet XD. Something for which I'm actually happy as Adolin is one of 2 characters I'm most interested in seeing in Oathbringer and this usually churns out a new perspective. (Other one been Szeth, but for some reason he creates nowhere close to the Adolin frenzy)

It comes and goes. Three years I have been in this fandom and the interest within Adolin, his character, his future, his love life, never wavered. If you go through the old posts, you will see topics discussing Adolin have always been very active and have been created on a regular basis. Currently, it is pretty active and while there are periods where it is less so, these topics still come back. This is also true on Reddit.

I once said someone will start an Adolin related topic once every two weeks / month. Truth is, based on my observation, Adolin has become one of the most popular character within the series, more popular than many main protagonists or, at the very least, more discussed and generating more overall interest. 

Szeth, well, Szeth isn't making unanimity which is why he is seldom discussed. While there are those who really love the character and are most interested in reading more of him, there are those who can't stand him. He is a hard to sympathize with character and some felt his chapters weren't the most interesting. I personally never liked reading Szeth because I can't stand the absurd self-pitying nor the insane religious frenzy, just as I dislike the endless string of lashings. Arguably, readers who love him, love him for those reasons and also because they love the fact he has Nightblood. 

So all in all, it isn't there are no readers are interested in Szeth, it is just there are more readers interested in Adolin. As I said, he has become more popular than many main protagonists which do include Szeth and Eshonai which might become a problem... It is always problematic, within stories, when the side character gets more popular than the protagonists: I personally fear for book 4 and 5.

[Reborn radiant]

On 13/5/2017 at 8:34 AM, maxal said:

My favorite outcome would be for Dalinar to first react very harshly, but later come to realize, as Adolin literally crumbles down and/or sinks down in whichever ways the author sees fit to implement, he might have been unfair towards his son. I really want to read this moment where Dalinar suddenly realizes he was too harsh and he can't sacrifice Adolin over Sadeas not because the law says he can't, but because he loves his son and unity must first come from within. In other words, to unite the world, he should start by uniting his family and keeping them strong. 

Holy rust, I can totally imagine this event matching "Eholkar was Dalinar's Tien" moment in WoR .

 

23 hours ago, maxal said:

I personally fear for book 4 and 5.

I, for one, think that Eshonai's book and Szeth's book will hold out as the most interesting solely because their pasts will be way different from Kaladin's or Shallan's or Dalinar's. I am dying to read Szeth's pov to know more about shin and Eshonai's for more info on... everything!

[maxal]

2 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

Holy rust, I can totally imagine this event matching "Eholkar was Dalinar's Tien" moment in WoR .

To be fair, while the mental gymnastic was one Kaladin needed to do to convince himself he ought to protect Elhokar despite his dislike of his persona, I feel it isn't completely accurate. To Kaladin, Tien was a younger brother he needed to protect, who couldn't protect himself for being too young, too small, not physical enough, not inclined towards the art of war enough. He also was the brother whom made Kaladin smiled whenever he felt depressed.

I feel Dalinar and Elhokar's relationship is entirely different. Kaladin saw worth in Tien, he was amazed at his brother's talent when it came to sculpting beautiful objects, but he was fair in his assessment. Tien might have talent, but his talent meant nothing in a small town such as Heartstone. He also didn't have the physical abilities to make it as a soldier which Kaladin was also able to assess fairly. Dalinar is behaving in an entirely different manner with Elhokar, praising him for qualities he does not possess and yet insisting on over-protecting him when clues indicate Elhokar, at the very least, is actually capable to hold his own in a fight.

My reading is Elhokar is Dalinar's mean to absolve his guilt towards feeling insanely jealous towards Gavilar. He couldn't help being jealous of his brother, but he beat himself up for it, so order to redeem himself, he started focusing on Elhokar. 

Oathbringer Spoiler

Spoiler

25 years ago, Dalinar gave the boy the first set of complete Shards he won during the war. Gavilar remarks how Dalinar should keep this set of Shards to give it to his first born son (not yet born nor conceived), but Dalinar insists Elhokar has it. Hence, Adolin was supposed in inherit a full set and Renarin a Plate, but they didn't because Dalinar gave it to Elhokar instead.

Thus, Elhokar isn't really Dalinar's Tien, he is the unwilling recipient of his uncle overload of guilt. It is also why I say Dalinar is unfair towards Adolin, because he loves his nephew more than his own boy.

It is why I have always thought there ought to be a moment where Dalinar realizes all this, realizes his behavior with Elhokar was wrong (it wasn't wrong to love his nephew, but it was wrong to completely ignore his failings and to praise him for qualities he does not have, not when he refuses the same treatment to his own son). I hope for Dalinar to realizes he actually can't sacrifice Adolin, there is a price no man should be willing to pay and a son's life appear to be just it. I also wish for Dalinar to find a way to keep his family united and this family includes Adolin.

Ah and I also somehow wanted Dalinar to realize he has spent a lifetime being worried about Renarin only to realize it was Adolin he ought to have worried about. I thought it would make a nice turn-over if the weaker kid ended up not being the one needing help. It would be great character progression for all three characters. Adolin would learn to stop trying to pretend at being strong, all the time, to admit he is afraid, to admit he isn't so sure of himself, to admit he can't always be perfect. Renarin would learn him being physically sick didn't mean he is weak, that he too can be strong and his weakness does not have to define him. Dalinar would learn to treat both his sons in a much fairer manner. He would learn to relent his control over Adolin, allowing him to grow into the man he is and accept this man might not be exactly what Dalinar wanted, but it remains a pretty good decent man.

2 hours ago, Reborn radiant said:

I, for one, think that Eshonai's book and Szeth's book will hold out as the most interesting solely because their pasts will be way different from Kaladin's or Shallan's or Dalinar's. I am dying to read Szeth's pov to know more about shin and Eshonai's for more info on... everything!

Szeth and Eshonai are the two viewpoint characters I have had the hardest time reading/appreciating, so I am not keen to read a book where they have the big share of viewpoints. I didn't mind them so much as supporting characters, but I have my reserves at seeing them become main protagonists. 

[Radiant_Jaeger]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

To be fair, while the mental gymnastic was one Kaladin needed to do to convince himself he ought to protect Elhokar despite his dislike of his persona, I feel it isn't completely accurate. To Kaladin, Tien was a younger brother he needed to protect, who couldn't protect himself for being too young, too small, not physical enough, not inclined towards the art of war enough. He also was the brother whom made Kaladin smiled whenever he felt depressed.

I feel Dalinar and Elhokar's relationship is entirely different. Kaladin saw worth in Tien, he was amazed at his brother's talent when it came to sculpting beautiful objects, but he was fair in his assessment. Tien might have talent, but his talent meant nothing in a small town such as Heartstone. He also didn't have the physical abilities to make it as a soldier which Kaladin was also able to assess fairly. Dalinar is behaving in an entirely different manner with Elhokar, praising him for qualities he does not possess and yet insisting on over-protecting him when clues indicate Elhokar, at the very least, is actually capable to hold his own in a fight.

My reading is Elhokar is Dalinar's mean to absolve his guilt towards feeling insanely jealous towards Gavilar. He couldn't help being jealous of his brother, but he beat himself up for it, so order to redeem himself, he started focusing on Elhokar. 

Oathbringer Spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

25 years ago, Dalinar gave the boy the first set of complete Shards he won during the war. Gavilar remarks how Dalinar should keep this set of Shards to give it to his first born son (not yet born nor conceived), but Dalinar insists Elhokar has it. Hence, Adolin was supposed in inherit a full set and Renarin a Plate, but they didn't because Dalinar gave it to Elhokar instead.

Thus, Elhokar isn't really Dalinar's Tien, he is the unwilling recipient of his uncle overload of guilt. It is also why I say Dalinar is unfair towards Adolin, because he loves his nephew more than his own boy.

It is why I have always thought there ought to be a moment where Dalinar realizes all this, realizes his behavior with Elhokar was wrong (it wasn't wrong to love his nephew, but it was wrong to completely ignore his failings and to praise him for qualities he does not have, not when he refuses the same treatment to his own son). I hope for Dalinar to realizes he actually can't sacrifice Adolin, there is a price no man should be willing to pay and a son's life appear to be just it. I also wish for Dalinar to find a way to keep his family united and this family includes Adolin.

Ah and I also somehow wanted Dalinar to realize he has spent a lifetime being worried about Renarin only to realize it was Adolin he ought to have worried about. I thought it would make a nice turn-over if the weaker kid ended up not being the one needing help. It would be great character progression for all three characters. Adolin would learn to stop trying to pretend at being strong, all the time, to admit he is afraid, to admit he isn't so sure of himself, to admit he can't always be perfect. Renarin would learn him being physically sick didn't mean he is weak, that he too can be strong and his weakness does not have to define him. Dalinar would learn to treat both his sons in a much fairer manner. He would learn to relent his control over Adolin, allowing him to grow into the man he is and accept this man might not be exactly what Dalinar wanted, but it remains a pretty good decent man.

I completely disagree regarding Dalinar and Elhokar. Elhokar IS his Tien, because Dalinar loves him in the same way Kaladin loved Tien. And Elhokar just like Tien tries. He fails, which we never saw from Tien, which I like more. Because people aren't perfect, not everyone is born to leadership. Some people have to work like crazy to get it right, and i think will we see a lot of that from Elhokar during Oathbringer.

The jealousy of his brother is not why Dalinar loves Elhokar. He loves him because he tries, after Gavilar died Dalinar says it was Elhokar that prevented the kingdom from falling part and strode towards the Vengeance Pact.

It is not his "insane jealousy of his brother" that makes Dalinar focus on Elhokar in my opinion, it is the fact that Elhokar needs more help, and that Dalinar feels responsible for his BROTHER's son. A brother who he failed to protect. Guilt is involved, yes, but mostly its the wish for his nephew to succeed. Parents often spend the most attention towards the children who need it most, and that's what i see here. Discourse is of course welcome, but I disagree strongly here.

[maxal]

44 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

I completely disagree regarding Dalinar and Elhokar. Elhokar IS his Tien, because Dalinar loves him in the same way Kaladin loved Tien. And Elhokar just like Tien tries. He fails, which we never saw from Tien, which I like more. Because people aren't perfect, not everyone is born to leadership. Some people have to work like crazy to get it right, and i think will we see a lot of that from Elhokar during Oathbringer.

The difference in between Elhokar and Tien is Elhokar is a grown man while Tien was just a child. Elhokar is also known to be petty, arrogant, dismissive, temperamental, selfish and full of himself. It may be he tries, but trying when you nearing your thirties is not enough, especially when your endeavor have for purpose for others to reveal into your grandeur. Elhokar will have my pity on the day he is going to raise one finger and/or have one thought for someone else but himself. He doesn't want to be a good king for his people, he wants to be viewed as a good one so people would worship him. This is entirely different from Tien who tried, worked hard and did succeed, it wasn't his fault it was taken away from him. Also, well, he was a child. 

Also, Oathbringer will highlight just how biased Dalinar's love for Elhokar is. 

47 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

The jealousy of his brother is not why Dalinar loves Elhokar. He loves him because he tries, after Gavilar died Dalinar says it was Elhokar that prevented the kingdom from falling part and strode towards the Vengeance Pact.

I disagree. Dalinar does not love Elhokar because he tries, he loves him out of compensation for being so jealous of Gavilar. The Thrill actually highlights it quite well, but we are within spoiler territory.

49 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

It is not his "insane jealousy of his brother" that makes Dalinar focus on Elhokar in my opinion, it is the fact that Elhokar needs more help, and that Dalinar feels responsible for his BROTHER's son. A brother who he failed to protect. Guilt is involved, yes, but mostly its the wish for his nephew to succeed. Parents often spend the most attention towards the children who need it most, and that's what i see here. Discourse is of course welcome, but I disagree strongly here.

This is hard to discuss because we are moving into Oathbringer spoilers. There are very good reasons to believe Dalinar's love of Elhokar is disproportionate because he feels guilty for hating Gavilar so much. The passage in question pretty much leaves little room for other interpretation, but it isn't something we can discuss now.

Also, Dalinar's focus on Elhokar is not healthy is doesn't sprout out of a "parent" wanting what is best for a child and putting more attention over the one needing it the most. Again, Elholar is not helpless. His misgivings are entirely his own. He isn't infirm nor physically inapt. He is quite capable, but he is too arrogant to have the humility to change his behavior. It isn't Elhokar Dalinar wants to see succeed, but Gavilar through Elhokar. It is a very twisted way of thinking, but I maintain my point. Dalinar's attitude towards Elhokar is completely, totally wrong, biased and doesn't sprout out of good parenting, worst even it is so unfair towards Adolin it makes my heart ache just to read The Thrill.

Dalinar's love is heavily biased... His second son, just like him, born after a brother too great to be true, his nephew, the son of the brother he nearly killed, his niece, the only girl and well... his other son. The son is isn't allowed one misstep.