The Nature of Shardplate

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 hours ago, Crucible of Shards said:

I mean, that shard plate comes through the nahel bond?

2 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Im not sure if there is a WoB but it HAS to be true. Those Radiants that came to save Dalinar in one of his visions had glowing shardplate that they could dismiss at will. How else would they have gotten it?

I don't think we have a WoB that states it beyond the shadow of a doubt, but Brandon has said that Plate was offered to all of them in the past, and some individuals refused it.

So every Radiant had access to it, which makes it seem quite likely to be an aspect/side bonus of the Nahel Bond. Regarding Dalinar specifically, perhaps the Bondsmiths were among those individuals who turned down the offer of Plate in the past.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I don't think we have a WoB that states it beyond the shadow of a doubt, but Brandon has said that Plate was offered to all of them in the past, and some individuals refused it.

So every Radiant had access to it, which makes it seem quite likely to be an aspect/side bonus of the Nahel Bond. Regarding Dalinar specifically, perhaps the Bondsmiths were among those individuals who turned down the offer of Plate in the past.

Yes but given how masterful Dalinar is in plate I hope to see him again maybe with a miniature highstorm as a cloak or something insanely awesome like that

[CJ Feboris]

I've been a fan of the Spren cousin theory for a long time, but the original post here seriously makes me reconsider my position. I like the idea of a Stormlight storage container because that is essentially what was happening during the fight in the area when Kaladin grabbed the shardplate helm. He fed the container but was not himself a perfect enough version of a knight to use it to its potential. I'm so excited about this new book that I feel like a schoolboy, I suspect that we can finally lay this discussion to rest after November. 

 

CJ

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

4 minutes ago, CJ lidmk said:

I've been a fan of the Spren cousin theory for a long time, but the original post here seriously makes me reconsider my position. I like the idea of a Stormlight storage container because that is essentially what was happening during the fight in the area when Kaladin grabbed the shardplate helm. He fed the container but was not himself a perfect enough version of a knight to use it to its potential. I'm so excited about this new book that I feel like a schoolboy, I suspect that we can finally lay this discussion to rest after November. 

 

CJ

Thanks! Although I don't know if I'm the first to think of that.

[CJ Feboris]

 

25 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Thanks! Although I don't know if I'm the first to think of that.

There was a lot of discussion about this topic a year or so back, with the two primary contenders being the "shareplate is spren" and "shardplate is stormlight." I was originally on the side of the spren because of Kaladin's flight when the windspren were attracted to fall through the sky. I think the primary problem with this theory is the lack of screaming with the shardplate (as indicated by the fight in the arena). Your argument definitely swayed me toward the light theory because I never viewed it as the perfect stormlight container, this makes a lot of sense. I really like this twist on it. 

EDIT: Here is the link to an older version of this discussion.

Edited May 10, 2017 by CJ lidmk
Added link.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

On 5/3/2017 at 5:02 AM, Fulminato said:

In the end of the same chapter dalinar see the windrunner's plate don't glowing, only a single glyph (the double eye) emit a fain light.

I think the plate are somehow related to the glyph kaladin "drew" whit stormlight. The first in the corridor when sworn the third oath after absorb all the light in the lamp, the second when landing in the shattered plains after saving dalinar lashed to the sky by sezth.

 

A intetesting thing is the heralds lakcing of shardplate

No, the armor glows blue beyond just the symbol. Also in the pure lake vision a KR's living plate glows red with no mention of any symbol

[CJ Feboris]

16 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

No, the armor glows blue beyond just the symbol. Also in the pure lake vision a KR's living plate glows red with no mention of any symbol

Quote

It was a man-a man in glowing blue Shardplate, bearing a Shardblade, trails of Stormlight rising from his body. p. 327 (Kindle) Ch 19 Starfalls

Quote

His armor no longer glowed, though one large symbol--emblazoned across the front of the breastplate--still gave off a faint blue light. p. 329 ibid.

I think you are both right!

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

7 minutes ago, CJ Feboris said:

I think you are both right!

Lol nice I didn't remember it fading

[kari-no-sugata]

On 5/3/2017 at 2:23 PM, The Sovereign said:

I would guess that something different is happening with Shardplate. Seeing as Shardplate doesn't cause the screaming that Shardblades cause when a Radiant touches it I'm not sure we can jump to the conclusion that Plate is also from dead Spren. In addition, we don't see nearly the animosity from Syl, the Stormfather, etc. regarding Shardplate as they have toward Dead Spren blades.

Something else to consider; Sprenblades were the result of the Spren trying to copy the Honorblades, we don't have any indication that the Heralds wore Shardplate, what then would the Spren be copying? 

Regarding the second point, I think this is part of the reason why Shardplate is significantly different to Shardblades. Putting it another way, Shardblades seem to be a "spren idea" (something they wanted to achieve) but Shardplate seems to be a "human idea" (an invention / solution they eventually came up with). It wouldn't surprise me if Shardplate as we know it came much much later than the first Shardblades.

Going back to the first point, I think there's a problem in this kind of discussion with using over-simplified terms - just to be clear, I'm responding to this post more because I think it asks the right questions, since the point I'm about to make is in response to something that's very common on the forums. Think of it this way - why would you get screams from something that's "dead"? I think it's clear from the discussions with Pattern that applying terms like "dead" or "alive" to spren is imprecise, even though it's commonly used even by spren. There just isn't a better term but that doesn't make it an accurate term either.

I think this is the best WoB we have on the cause of the screams:

Quote

The spren in a Shardblade are not trapped in a state of mid-transformation like the Elantrians. They are stuck in an agony cycle after having a significant portion of their consciousnesses ripped out of them. The Nahel bond is what allows spren to think on [the] material plane and that has been torn away. It would be like having a data jack installed and then having someone come up to your head and rip it out of your head.

We don't know exactly what a Nahel bond is. Many examples of spren bond exist on Roshar but the one between spren and Radiants is unique, as far as I'm aware. It may be that only that bond is a Nahel bond and lesser bonds are not Nahel bonds. Only the Radiant spren have Oaths that we know of and it's the betrayal of these Oaths that causes the spren to "die" and get stuck as a screaming Shardblade. With "living" Shardblades, they are directly tied to the Radiant they have a bond with and can temporarily manifest in the Physical Realm as a result of that bond. If it was possible to summon and dismiss Shardplate then a similar bond would be required. But is it really practical to form a permanent bond with 100s/1000s of "minor" spren? I don't think so.

So, if Shardplate is made from 100s/1000s of minor spren then I don't think it would be possible to summon/dismiss it like Shardblades and instead it would be permanently manifested in the Physical Realm. It would then not depend on any Oaths, so a Radiant breaking their Oaths would not fundamentally alter their Shardplate. Which would also mean that they would never scream. There wouldn't be any animosity towards the Shardplates by spren since their current form would be unrelated to the Recreance.

In the "Starfalls" chapter in tWoK we see the example of the Radiant's helm being not around at one point then suddenly it's there. If it had been summoned then it would have been wet, but it wasn't wet. If my thinking above is correct then maybe the overall Shardplate is simply shifting shape. It's effectively magical metal anyway (can regrow itself etc) so this seems plausible to me.

As for how to make Shardplate, I've have no real idea. I suspect it's a lot more complicated than "gather lots of spren and wish really hard", as it were. It might well require the Transformation Surge, for example.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

10 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Regarding the second point, I think this is part of the reason why Shardplate is significantly different to Shardblades. Putting it another way, Shardblades seem to be a "spren idea" (something they wanted to achieve) but Shardplate seems to be a "human idea" (an invention / solution they eventually came up with). It wouldn't surprise me if Shardplate as we know it came much much later than the first Shardblades.

Going back to the first point, I think there's a problem in this kind of discussion with using over-simplified terms - just to be clear, I'm responding to this post more because I think it asks the right questions, since the point I'm about to make is in response to something that's very common on the forums. Think of it this way - why would you get screams from something that's "dead"? I think it's clear from the discussions with Pattern that applying terms like "dead" or "alive" to spren is imprecise, even though it's commonly used even by spren. There just isn't a better term but that doesn't make it an accurate term either.

I think this is the best WoB we have on the cause of the screams:

We don't know exactly what a Nahel bond is. Many examples of spren bond exist on Roshar but the one between spren and Radiants is unique, as far as I'm aware. It may be that only that bond is a Nahel bond and lesser bonds are not Nahel bonds. Only the Radiant spren have Oaths that we know of and it's the betrayal of these Oaths that causes the spren to "die" and get stuck as a screaming Shardblade. With "living" Shardblades, they are directly tied to the Radiant they have a bond with and can temporarily manifest in the Physical Realm as a result of that bond. If it was possible to summon and dismiss Shardplate then a similar bond would be required. But is it really practical to form a permanent bond with 100s/1000s of "minor" spren? I don't think so.

So, if Shardplate is made from 100s/1000s of minor spren then I don't think it would be possible to summon/dismiss it like Shardblades and instead it would be permanently manifested in the Physical Realm. It would then not depend on any Oaths, so a Radiant breaking their Oaths would not fundamentally alter their Shardplate. Which would also mean that they would never scream. There wouldn't be any animosity towards the Shardplates by spren since their current form would be unrelated to the Recreance.

In the "Starfalls" chapter in tWoK we see the example of the Radiant's helm being not around at one point then suddenly it's there. If it had been summoned then it would have been wet, but it wasn't wet. If my thinking above is correct then maybe the overall Shardplate is simply shifting shape. It's effectively magical metal anyway (can regrow itself etc) so this seems plausible to me.

As for how to make Shardplate, I've have no real idea. I suspect it's a lot more complicated than "gather lots of spren and wish really hard", as it were. It might well require the Transformation Surge, for example.

I still think it's like an attempt by the Knights' bodies to make them less porous and give the leaking Stormlight both a purpose and a place to go

[Fulminato he/him]

On 10/5/2017 at 5:49 AM, Radiant_Jaeger said:

No, the armor glows blue beyond just the symbol. Also in the pure lake vision a KR's living plate glows red with no mention of any symbol

you are wrong

"yes, there’s someone in the middle of them. Shardbearer. Glowing armor.”
Not just a Shardbearer. Radiant. A knight in resplendent Shardplate that glowed with a deep red at the joints and in certain markings. Armor did that in the shadowdays. This vision was taking place before the Recreance."

WoR Chapter 4 "taker of secrets"

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Fulminato

[Harbour he/him]

I have a feeling that Radiants and Shardplates are somehow related to each other on the biological/structural level.

Shardplates are working when they are filled with the Stormlight. As well as Radiants are only capable to do some superhuman stuff when they are filled with the Stormlight.

Stormlight gives both Shardplates and Radiants an abilities to be solid as steel and an enhanced strength, agility and speed.

Both Radiants and Shardplates working mechanisms designed similar to each other. 

Sometimes i think that Radiants are ascended Sprens, while Shardplates are dead Sprens. Sometimes i think that Shardplates are partly living tool, designing with addition of Radiant's DNA or "miracle power". Sometimes i even think that Shardplates are first Knight Radiants remains, crystallized in a form of the armor or probably melted with dead Radiant's spren. 

p.s. Hi everyone, there are many interesting threads to discuss to not sign up.

[Buschy]

Wouldn't it seem more probable that the creation of new shard plate would be from a person such as Kaladin taking the next oath which unlocks the ability with his bonded spren?

[Saskshard]

Doesn't it make sense that the Radiants would try and duplicate what the listeners are receiving with their Warform carapace that they receive from bonding with a spren in a highstorm.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

On 5/11/2017 at 10:47 AM, Saskshard said:

Doesn't it make sense that the Radiants would try and duplicate what the listeners are receiving with their Warform carapace that they receive from bonding with a spren in a highstorm.

Not a bad point in my opinion although I'm not sure if the spren that cause war form are intelligent and whther that has impact on plate