The Science of Surges

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

This is meant to begin a discussion on how the surges work with and against physics and other means. 

Obviously windrunners and lightweavers will be the prime candidates since we have the most source material available.

I pose this question. Does a Windrunner who has made themselves lighter by using a quarter lashing upward (thus halving their weight) still carry the same force behind their blows?

mass x acceleration says that they do since they don't actually shed mass just weight... I think.

Also could lightweavers microwave food? They control both sound waves and photons so is it the entire spectrum of waves?

Edited April 29, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger

[The One Who Connects he/him]

4 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Also could Lightweavers microwave food? They control both sound waves and photons so is it the entire spectrum of waves?

Brandon has said that they could theoretically make a Death Star-esque laser, provided a lot of science knowhow and infinite Stormlight. I imagine that if it is the full spectrum of waves, they could be a personal microwave. I can't find said death star WoB to see if he limited it to only light and sound waves, so I can't say for sure.

4 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

mass x acceleration says that they do since they don't actually shed mass just weight... I think.

By technicality, they don't really shed weight either. A 100 pound table with a quarter lashing up would weigh 75 lbs down towards the ground, and 25 lbs upwards. It's still a net 100 pounds that exist, but half of it cancels out its effect via up/down.

On a third note:  Division works by separating molecular bonds. (Brandon thinks splitting the atom would be too much)

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

So no Rosharin WMDs? ); other than shardbearers and szeth.

@The One Who Connects it wouldn't make sense if it was just light and sound though it has to be the whole spectrum

Could a windrunner lash himself in space? (Granting him a survival suit of some sort). Or do Surges act upon existing forces?

Edited April 30, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger

[The One Who Connects he/him]

26 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

So no Rosharin WMDs? ); other than shardbearers and szeth.

That depends on your definition of WMD.

A bit curious why you tagged Maxal, but maybe I haven't seen a prior conversation b/w the two of you

28 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Could a windrunner lash himself in space?

Brandon and the team (or in-world people, not 100% sure) have figured out how long it would take to get to the three moons of Roshar, so I would say yes

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

50 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

That depends on your definition of WMD.

A bit curious why you tagged Maxal, but maybe I haven't seen a prior conversation b/w the two of you

Brandon and the team (or in-world people, not 100% sure) have figured out how long it would take to get to the three moons of Roshar, so I would say yes

Lol wrong person for the tag (I argued with him about Adolin's moral status in a thread right before this) 

Also killing more than 500 people in one day with one weapon is wmd to me. (At least in medieval esque societies)

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Lol wrong person for the tag (I argued with him about Adolin's moral status in a thread right before this) 

Also killing more than 500 people in one day with one weapon is wmd to me. (At least in medieval esque societies)

I had wondered about the tag too... I am definitely the wrong person to answer the questioning of this thread.

[Complexityspren]

2 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Could a windrunner lash himself in space?

Coppermind claims this is confirmed.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

4 hours ago, Complexityspren said:

Coppermind claims this is confirmed.

YES! So that means they create gravity not manipulate it.

[+Extesian he/him]

This is the best WoB I know on the matter, from the Boskone signing this year. 

Quote

Q: It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

A: Depends on your definition of god.

Q: Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

B: So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Q: I was wondering how much-

 B: But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Source

So yeah effectively it creates gravity, it creates a bond with an object or even just a direction and makes that bond mimic gravity (basically mimic Rosharan-level gravity as an attractive force). You could bond yourself in the direction of the nearest star if you wanted (though I'd recommend bulk cadmium and brass metalminds :)).

Edit - I forgot to answer your actually questions

So the force behind a Windrunner does change but not because of the mass side of the equation, because of the acceleration side. Earth gravity is 9.8ms (sq). A half lashing would make it 4.9ms. Half gravity doesn't change your mass, it changes acceleration which changes weight. 

With Illumination Brandon has confirmed they manipulate the electromagnetic spectrum, so visible light all the way through microwaves (gamma, radio, x-ray etc). But you need so much investiture it would be like (to use Brandon's example) turning lead into gold with a particle accelerator. Possible but prohibitive and there are probably easier ways to blow stuff up. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Extesian

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

@Extesian Nice lead to gold analogy. That makes sense. Could Kaladin make himself way more and gain super strength (or would that be like DBZ gravity training)

 

Also I'm interested to see how fast Lift can go because if she makes herself completely frictionless and continues accelerating she can basically be the Flash.

 

no microwaved Budcorn for the people of roshar then. Damnation Brandon!

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Could Kaladin make himself way more and gain super strength

It doesn't exactly work that way, but remember what he did during the 4v1 duel in Book 2? He lashed himself several times (the math I did put it at 10 lashings, but without a WoB) and that 10x gravitationally accelerated kick cracked Shardplate. So he technically did something that requires great strength, at the downside of breaking both of his legs in the process. The human body isn't designed to withstand extra gravity, so I don't see it as something he will do very often. Were he wearing Plate of his own... maybe

1 hour ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

how fast Lift can go because if she makes herself completely frictionless and continues accelerating she can basically be the Flash.

Biggest problem with this is that without friction with the ground, she can't exert any real force to speed up, let alone turn. It'd be far more slippery than ice. Going downhill, she would speed up immensely due to gravity because terminal velocity is determined by friction/drag and she wouldn't have either. She'd more or less never slow down, but once she gets on level ground, there's no speeding up anymore.

1 hour ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

no microwaved Budcorn for the people of Roshar then.

Why do you think Scadrial is the place getting Instant Noodles?

[kari-no-sugata]

14 hours ago, Extesian said:

With Illumination Brandon has confirmed they manipulate the electromagnetic spectrum, so visible light all the way through microwaves (gamma, radio, x-ray etc). But you need so much investiture it would be like (to use Brandon's example) turning lead into gold with a particle accelerator. Possible but prohibitive and there are probably easier ways to blow stuff up. 

I don't remember Brandon confirming such things and couldn't find anything with a quick search. I have actually been depressed about the lack of interest in the Illumination surge so if anyone can point me to some WoBs on the subject that I've missed I'll be very happy.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

38 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I don't remember Brandon confirming such things and couldn't find anything with a quick search. I have actually been depressed about the lack of interest in the Illumination surge so if anyone can point me to some WoBs on the subject that I've missed I'll be very happy.

Here's a thread based on Brandon's words.

Quote

But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed Stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation.

Quote

But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat.

 

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Here's a thread based on Brandon's words.

Interesting! Thanks. Nice to see some readers can see that there's more to Lightweaving than disguises. I suspect we won't get Lightweaver lasers until the 2nd half of the Stormlight Archive... but simpler things could happen sooner. Just being able to flash a bright light at enemies to temporarily blind them would be useful.

 

[Watchcry he/him]

19 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

YES! So that means they create gravity not manipulate it.

I thought it had to do with the adhesion (pressure) side of the Windrunner ability not the gravitation side. 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, ANRILU said:

I thought it had to do with the adhesion (pressure) side of the Windrunner ability not the gravitation side. 

The Ars Arcanum of Way of Kings and Words of Radiance indicate that the prevailing theory is that a basic lashing operates by manipulating with a person's spiritual connection to the world they are on. Same with a reverse lashing.

[Watchcry he/him]

For space travel?

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

6 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Interesting! Thanks. Nice to see some readers can see that there's more to Lightweaving than disguises. I suspect we won't get Lightweaver lasers until the 2nd half of the Stormlight Archive... but simpler things could happen sooner. Just being able to flash a bright light at enemies to temporarily blind them would be useful.

 

This would be cool because they could use sound too and create flash bangs. I can't wait to see some of the more destructive powers like division and tension.

@The One Who Connects So division is fairly obvious in its essence but what do you think Tension and Cohesion end up being? I believe that it will allow a sort of super strength. Increase the tension of the muscles and skin making them resistant to physical blows and able to lift more while in shardplate.

Lightweaving lasers will most likely be used in the form of redirecting the sun's light and focusing it magnifying glass style. #parshmen ants

[+Extesian he/him]

8 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

This would be cool because they could use sound too and create flash bangs. I can't wait to see some of the more destructive powers like division and tension.

@The One Who Connects So division is fairly obvious in its essence but what do you think Tension and Cohesion end up being? I believe that it will allow a sort of super strength. Increase the tension of the muscles and skin making them resistant to physical blows and able to lift more while in shardplate.

Lightweaving lasers will most likely be used in the form of redirecting the sun's light and focusing it magnifying glass style. #parshmen ants

Your thinking on tension is on track

Quote

HOSER

(Speaking of the division surge) Is that a re-framing of, at one point in time you were talking about weak/strong forces?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Um, weak/strong forces, yes, that's the one that sent me there partially. Like, I'm not actually... the idea of the fundamental forces is a cool thing to me so it's not like I'm actually trying to use the weak and strong forces, the idea of there being fundamental forces. I wanted to go off on it in a fancy way. Like this one right here I told them was surface tension. But it's not really surface tension. It's more like um, the people with this could take a piece of cloth and snap it out and it would become hard as if the cloth became steel. I'm trying to explain this scientifically, but it doesn't work scientifically. Imagine as if they could restructure the atoms so that they became a latticework like a crystal rather than being soft like...cloth. I'm calling it surface tension, but it's not really surface tension.

HOSER

Tensile strength?

BRANDON SANDERSON

(hedging) It's kind of like tensile strength. I have to go through Peter and say "Alright Peter, come up with what we should really call this." He does the hard science a lot better than I do. I do the armchair theories and then he goes, "Ok, now this is the math if someone were to actually fall off of this and 0.7 gravity and the weight of the bridge...". (looking back at the chart) So what can I give you that I didn't give her? Um, one of the orders is called Bondsmiths.

Quote

MACEN

Can you tell me something about Tension and Cohesion?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I haven't actually written these magic systems yet, so they may change. But they are--Tension is the ability to take something flexible and make it rigid. Which sounds simple, but there are so many cool things you can do with that.

 

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

Your thinking on tension is on track

 

That last bit interests me, because could you become so flexible that you're essentially a living person made of rubber? Able to bounce off walls like a dodgeball!? Lol I'm having fun with this..

I don't get why there isn't a Heat surge though... Or is division just that (molecules moving at a rapid rate creating heat and fire) Anyway I'd love to see how fast Kaladin can actully travel. because gravity 9.8 meters per second squared.

So when he does a double lashing is it 19.6 meters per second? or is it 96 meters.. (does it multiply or just add more to the accelaration.) And how would Terminal velocity act upon multiple lashings?! Gah I'm in total nerd mode.

[galendo]

2 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

So when he does a double lashing is it 19.6 meters per second? or is it 96 meters.. (does it multiply or just add more to the accelaration.) And how would Terminal velocity act upon multiple lashings?! Gah I'm in total nerd mode.

A double lashing would double the acceleration, so 19.6 m/s.  Terminal velocity, um, hmm...I think it would be proportional to the number of lashings, so that two lashings would give you twice the terminal velocity.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

1 hour ago, galendo said:

A double lashing would double the acceleration, so 19.6 m/s.  Terminal velocity, um, hmm...I think it would be proportional to the number of lashings, so that two lashings would give you twice the terminal velocity.

The average terminal velocity of a skydiver is 120mph... so assuming Kaladin quadruple lashes himself in a direction he could travel nearly 500 miles an hour. Now all we need is a scale for Roshar, and we can know how fast he can get to Alethkar (once we figure out the rate of stormlight consumption and how much stormlight he can hold and use before getting sick from it)

[Yata he/him]

23 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

The average terminal velocity of a skydiver is 120mph... so assuming Kaladin quadruple lashes himself in a direction he could travel nearly 500 miles an hour. Now all we need is a scale for Roshar, and we can know how fast he can get to Alethkar (once we figure out the rate of stormlight consumption and how much stormlight he can hold and use before getting sick from it)

You have also to considerate Roshar's lesser Gravity and the damage the body would recive from moving at High Speed (and the relative Stormlight to heal the damage)

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

You have also to considerate Roshar's lesser Gravity and the damage the body would recive from moving at High Speed (and the relative Stormlight to heal the damage)

How do you know Roshar has a lesser gravity? (Ars Arcanum?) Also a Radiant could probably handle the force of the winds relatively easily while infused with stormlight.

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

How do you know Roshar has a lesser gravity? (Ars Arcanum?) Also a Radiant could probably handle the force of the winds relatively easily while infused with stormlight.

I am not sure from where but Roshar has 0.7 g of gravity. It's One of the features needed to allow GreatShell to exist in it.

About the air resistance, I think you understamate It a bit. Flying at 200-300 Km/h would be hard for the G-Force alone. Imagine having the full air resistance in your body. It's not really different than be hit by something

Edited May 1, 2017 by Yata