Trapping the spren in torment

[sir sprenalot]

So, others have mentioned that spren scream when a KR touches them, one because they can hear them, and second, being trapped in the PR is painful. 

Do you think this was done deliberately by the KR? It seems very vengeful if so...

[The Sovereign]

I think you are missing something here. It isn't that Spren scream when a KR touch them. Dead-Spren shardblades scream when KR touch them. I suspect this is a resonance of someone with an intact Nahel Bond touching a Spren who was killed by the breaking of the bond. My best guess (this is speculation) would be that when the Nahel Bond is broken the Spiritual and/or Cognitive aspects of the Spren are damaged and when someone with a Nahel Bond touches them it is like sticking a finger in the wound.

I suspect that the Knights didn't understand what breaking the bond would do to the Spren, it likely wasn't deliberately vengeful. Even if they did know, I doubt it was a malicious move, the Knights may have just believed it was necessary (a lesser of two evils situation).

Edited April 28, 2017 by Iron Eyes

[Ciridae]

That's an interesting interpretation, I always thought the blades were constantly screaming, constantly in pain, being stuck in the PR, and only once the Radiant touches the blade are able to hear them. 

But the Radiant causing the screaming could be true just as well. I always thought Relis heard screams because his blade connected him to Kaladin, which connected him to Syl, which allowed him to hear the constant screaming he couldn't hear before. But it might just be that he was only connected to Kaladin though the blade and him being a Radiant caused the screaming. Also, I think Relis says something like "No, I didnt kill you" (paraphrased from memory), which is the first time we have any indication thay a dead sprenblade can communicate other than screaming. The implication here is that the blade seems to react to something specific, I find it hard to believe that the blade is constantly yelling "you killed me". Or maybe he/she is and its something like 

Tiny Elantris spoiler

Spoiler

A Hoed mantra

Yeah I think I'm convinced now that the Radiant at least causes an additional reaction haha

[The Sovereign]

I hadn't considered the Elantrian (Hoed) mantres but you are likely on the right track. I was equating the screams of the blades to the screams Szeth was hearing which likely have the same root; Spiritual aspect damage.

 

Quote

 

INTERVIEW: Apr 8th, 2016

OdysseyCon 2016

BLIGHTSONG

Is anything magical going on with the screams Szeth hears?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uhhh, Szeth's screams. Uhhm, I'm trying to decide how to answer this. It is not, see here's the thing. What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic. Would Szeth if he were on our planet and have done those things would he hear those screams, probably not, but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes.

BLIGHTSONG

So it has to do with the spiritual realm?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yea, mhmm, yea.

TAGS

Szeth, screams,

 

 

[Calderis he/him]

6 hours ago, Ciridae said:

That's an interesting interpretation, I always thought the blades were constantly screaming, constantly in pain, being stuck in the PR, and only once the Radiant touches the blade are able to hear them. 

But the Radiant causing the screaming could be true just as well. I always thought Relis heard screams because his blade connected him to Kaladin, which connected him to Syl, which allowed him to hear the constant screaming he couldn't hear before. But it might just be that he was only connected to Kaladin though the blade and him being a Radiant caused the screaming. Also, I think Relis says something like "No, I didnt kill you" (paraphrased from memory), which is the first time we have any indication thay a dead sprenblade can communicate other than screaming. The implication here is that the blade seems to react to something specific, I find it hard to believe that the blade is constantly yelling "you killed me". Or maybe he/she is and its something like 

Tiny Elantris spoiler

  Hide contents

A Hoed mantra

Yeah I think I'm convinced now that the Radiant at least causes an additional reaction haha

Maybe I'm way off, but I always thought his "I didn't kill you" yell was in response to Pattern. Pattern disappeared to help during the fight and we never saw his involvement beyond Syl's interest. I thought he started whispering to Relis, and caused that reaction. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by Calderis

[+Extesian he/him]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

Maybe I'm way off, but I always thought his "I didn't kill you" yell was in response to Pattern. Pattern disappeared to help during the fight and we never saw his involvement beyond Syl's interest. I thought he started whispering to Relis, and caused that reaction. 

Here's the WoB

Quote

QUESTION

Why does the shardbearer — when they're dueling with Adolin and Renarin — why does the shardbearer freak out when Kaladin grabs the sword — like, he screams, and shouts "I didn't kill you!" and ran away?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

QUESTION

Why does he do that?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Because when Kaladin was there and they were touching it, they actually heard the spren that was inside of it.

QUESTION

So it wasn't Syl that he heard, it was —

BRANDON SANDERSON

It was the sword's spren. That Kaladin was touching it — when a Knight Radiant touches it — you'll see when other Knights Radiant pick up sword, they can hear the screaming.

 

[Calderis he/him]

@Extesian I'm aware of that and not disputing it. There's a gap though between Relis hearing a scream while Kaladin held the blade and when he flees the dueling grounds. He should only have been able to hear the scream while Kaladin was physically touching the blade.

There are really two questions asked in that WoB and Brandon addressed the more important of the two. He answered what was going on with the blade, but not what was going on with Relis. 

In the middle of combat, adrenaline flowing, you hear a scream out of nowhere. Scream ends, there's no visible source of it, but you have other things on your mind to deal with.

I don't think he jumped from hearing a scream, to swinging his blade at the ground and raving as he fled without something else feeding into that.

I've always assumed that extra push was Pattern because we know he went down to help, we know he can make people hear voices while blending in to be damnation near invisible, and Relis' actions make no sense without him hearing an actual voice speaking, beyond a short scream during Kaladin's last clap.

It's not on the page, and it's not in that WoB, but it will remain my head Canon because it fits. A shard bearer hearing a short-lived scream and falling completely apart doesn't. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by Calderis

[maxal she/her]

35 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It's not on the page, and it's not in that WoB, but it will remain my head Canon because it fits. A shard bearer hearing a short-lived scream and falling completely apart doesn't. 

I disagree it doesn't fit. Hearing an object suddenly scream you have killed it can be terribly unsettling. Imagine for one moment, your Shardblade, which you considered is nothing more than an empowered sword, an inanimate object, a tool you have been using for the past decades suddenly comes to life and yells at you. Admittedly, the dead-spren screams weren't directed at Relis, likely they were meant to Kaladin whom it can recognize as a Radiant (hence the potential you killed me scream), but Relis has no way of knowing this. It is his Shardblade which screamed, he has every reason to think it was directed at him specifically. He has no reason to believe Kaladin might be the cause.

Thus, I find it perfectly plausible and realistic, a long time Shardbearer such as Relis (who had his Shards since childhood) would be so unsettled upon hearing his Blade start screaming at him would completely unraveled, running away screaming. An object cannot talk. Surely when he tried to voice it out, later on, his father brushed it away: an object does not talk. So imagine Relis trying to explain what he heard, trying to convince his father that no he hasn't gone crazy and failing because objects do not talk. Or perhaps he did think he had gone crazy just as Renarin thought he was crazy, the difference being Renarin already thought he was crazy, he already knew his head was "different", hence he just thought this was yet another manifestation at how "different" he is. For Relis however, it would have been quite another story.

To me thus, the scene is perfectly plausible and the most likely explanation is Relis ran away because he heard a scream which was not directed at him, but at Kaladin.

[Calderis he/him]

I don't agree. The scream should only have been audible while Kaladin touched the blade. Which means Relis would have heard the same scream Kaladin did. From Relis' perspective there is literally no reason for him to believe an object is screaming, just that he heard a scream. Kaladin even registers it as two separate things if I remember correctly. He touches the blade and hears the scream and then has to figure out what happened. I'm going to have to go read that scene again. There were definitely no words in the scream Kaladin heard though. 

[maxal she/her]

The scream was only audible when Kaladin touched the Blade.

Quote

 

Catching the Blade.

Screaming.

Why could he hear screaming? Inside his head? Was that Syl's voice?

It reverberated through Kaladin. That horrible, awful screech shook him, made his muscles tremble. He released the Shardblade with a gasp, falling, backward.

Relis dropped the Blade as if bitten. He backed away, raising his hands to his head. "What is it? What is it! No, I didn't kill you." He shrieked as if in great pain, then ran across the sands and pulled open the door to the preparation room, fleeing inside.

 

My interpretation of the scene is the scream is only audible when Kaladin touches the Blade which lasted for a few seconds, long enough to hear it, but it vanishes when Kaladin released the Blade. Relis then has a stunned reaction, he dropped his Blade (Did he just break the bond just here and there? If not then we are pilling in with example of distressed Shardbearers dropping their Blade without any effort. It does make Adolin the exception and not the rule), he puts his hands to his head, indicating his distress and wonders what just had happened. The scene is written from Kaladin's perspective: he does not speak of words, but it might be Relis is hearing them. He is the one bonded to the Blade so his experience may be different. There is something into the bond Shardbearer have with their Blades as the Blades will change through time if bonded long enough and Relis has had his for a long time. We never had the perspective of a regular Shardbearer hearing the screams, we only had the perspective of Radiants. The experience might differ.

It absolutely makes no sense to me it was Pattern. There is absolutely nothing which indicates he is involved in any small ways in this scene. Yes, he was in the arena, but he isn't the one screaming at Relis. 

[Calderis he/him]

@maxal thanks for quoting the scene. That is too sudden for outside intervention... I don't like it... But I definitely remembered it incorrectly. Thank you. 

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

I get so mad at the Radiants and Heralds... nothing is worse than a traitor!

[ARARITA he/him]

but

dead spren blades only scream so far - nothing spoken - sooooo ... is this indication that the blade has somewhat awoken / come back to life ?

and

the only difference I see from other screaming blades is that it has always only been a single person touching the blade

might the key be in 2 people touching the blade - one being a KR ?

[maxal she/her]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

@maxal thanks for quoting the scene. That is too sudden for outside intervention... I don't like it... But I definitely remembered it incorrectly. Thank you. 

Don't worry about it: I went and reread the scene myself as reading you I realized perhaps I wasn't recalling it properly.

1 hour ago, ARARITA said:

but

dead spren blades only scream so far - nothing spoken - sooooo ... is this indication that the blade has somewhat awoken / come back to life ?

and

the only difference I see from other screaming blades is that it has always only been a single person touching the blade

might the key be in 2 people touching the blade - one being a KR ?

So far, the only individuals we have witness hearing dead-Blade screaming were Radiants. Sure, there was Relis, but we didn't get to read Relis's thoughts, we thus cannot know what his experience felt like. As I theorize, it might be the bearers of dead-Blades hear real words whenever a Radiant is close enough to awaken it. It may be Kaladin and Relis di hdn'tear the same thing.

This being said, I am 100% convinced this particular Blade hasn't come back to life. Let's think about it for a few seconds, Brandon explicitly told us it would be near impossible to revive a dead-Blade unless you are the original knight. While technically improbable, the procedure seems so complex, difficult and practically infeasible it is completely far-fetched to thing a scum bag such as Relis Ruthar would have pulled it off, behind the scenes. What do we know about Relis Ruthar? He is arrogant, he has presumably been the duelist champion for several years and he feels so threaten by young Adolin, he sees fit to cripple him in an unfair fight just to avoid having to eventually face him one on one. He is dishonorable and he has no morality: I can't fathom any spren, much less a dead-spren, would have any interest in him. While it may be true less than respectable individuals might be chosen as Radiants, they would have least have some of either honor and/or morality. Relis Ruthar has none.

So no, based on what we know it would be a very rare event if one dead-Blade were to be revived and if it does happen, it won't be through Relis Ruthar's former Shardblade. 

[ARARITA he/him]

does Moash hear words from his blade around Kal ....? or Graves ? maybe Relis is special ....? does a KR actually have to touch the blade ...?

and my thoughts about it are too new to me - haven't had time to think it out - and I know that it is supposed to be a difficult thing to revive a dead blade ...but words seem more like back to life --- but I don't think fully alive

Edited April 29, 2017 by ARARITA
clarification

[maxal she/her]

3 hours ago, ARARITA said:

does Moash hear words from his blade around Kal ....? or Graves ? maybe Relis is special ....? does a KR actually have to touch the blade ...?

and my thoughts about it are too new to me - haven't had time to think it out - and I know that it is supposed to be a difficult thing to revive a dead blade ...but words seem more like back to life --- but I don't think fully alive

Moash never heard anything that we are aware of. As for Relis being special, well, I would ask you, do you honestly think he is or do you thunk there might be more to the scene? For my part, I am 100% convinced there is absolutely nothing special about Relis. As I said, reviving a Blade is practically impossible, too implausible for someone like Relis to pull it of. Quite frankly, that one is about as close to revive a Blade than a rock would be.

As for the words, Brandon did say the dead-Blades did have a limited conscience of present time, so Relis Blade is likely aware enough to yell at him, but there is quite a wall to cross it may be Blade revival. Also Brandon did say to bring a Blade to life, one would need to say the oaths (and they would need to be accepted) and something more would need to happen: nothing of the sorts happened with Relis and even if he were to magically start saying the right words, his dead-spren would likely not want him.

[Yata he/him]

Maybe after a long time, Deadblade's bond becames a bit deeplier. Nothing too extreme but a bit more then a fresh One. Rellis is a duelist from a long time so he probably had his Blade for years.

[Krandacth]

14 hours ago, maxal said:

The scream was only audible when Kaladin touched the Blade.

My interpretation of the scene is the scream is only audible when Kaladin touches the Blade which lasted for a few seconds, long enough to hear it, but it vanishes when Kaladin released the Blade. Relis then has a stunned reaction, he dropped his Blade (Did he just break the bond just here and there? If not then we are pilling in with example of distressed Shardbearers dropping their Blade without any effort. It does make Adolin the exception and not the rule), he puts his hands to his head, indicating his distress and wonders what just had happened. The scene is written from Kaladin's perspective: he does not speak of words, but it might be Relis is hearing them. He is the one bonded to the Blade so his experience may be different. There is something into the bond Shardbearer have with their Blades as the Blades will change through time if bonded long enough and Relis has had his for a long time. We never had the perspective of a regular Shardbearer hearing the screams, we only had the perspective of Radiants. The experience might differ.

It absolutely makes no sense to me it was Pattern. There is absolutely nothing which indicates he is involved in any small ways in this scene. Yes, he was in the arena, but he isn't the one screaming at Relis. 

I just want to step in here and point out that it isn't stated what happened to the Blade after Relis dropped it. I always assumed that it vanished, as is widely known to happen when a Shardbearer drops their Blade, the assumption being that some specific mention would have been made of something so unusual as the Blade remaining when dropped.

I've also always interpreted Relis' continued reaction, as well as hearing words that Kaladin does not, as him continuing to hear the Spren via his limited Bond. Relis fleeing reads like a paranoid schizophrenic being harried by persistent voices, rather then someone who heard a brief scream, which may or may not have contained snatches of words, followed by silence. This is especially true given that other examples of this scenario in the books are brushed off or otherwise dismissed (e.g. Tyn when hearing Pattern impersonating Jasnah).

Nevertheless, this is all just my interpretation. One thing I'm fairly sure of is that it wasn't Pattern. He was noted as being around earlier distracting Abrobadar, but then fled when Syl got too close. Also, if Pattern had been harrying Relis, with screams, then Kaladin would surely have heard them, if more faintly than the initial ones (depending on where Pattern was). Also also, if Pattern did make use of this effect, it would confirm for him that Kaladin was a proto-Radiant, which never comes up again...

[+Extesian he/him]

I agree it's not likely there's anything different about the sword or Relis. But the mechanics of this interests me. 

How about this (and feel free to correct any realmatic mistakes). Shardbearers without a Nahel bond don't hear their sword's screams because the Shardbearer is entirely within the physical realm. Kaladin, like anyone with a Nahel bond, will hear the screams because they're partly in the cognitive realm (or at least have a channel to it through their spren). When Kaladin grabs the sword that same channel to the cognitive realm is connecting Relis through his bond with his sword, either bringing him partly into the cognitive realm or at least letting him hear the screams that have always been there and letting the sword-spren directly communicate with him. There are a couple of realmatic assumptions I'm making there so I don't know if it's possible, but it would fit. 

[maxal she/her]

4 hours ago, Krandacth said:

I just want to step in here and point out that it isn't stated what happened to the Blade after Relis dropped it. I always assumed that it vanished, as is widely known to happen when a Shardbearer drops their Blade, the assumption being that some specific mention would have been made of something so unusual as the Blade remaining when dropped.

I am aware what happened to Relis Blade isn't mentioned after he dropped it, hence myself wondering if he hadn't just broken the bond. This Blade was given to Adolin afterwards, so either someone ran up to Relis and demanded he broke the bond or it remains on the ground and they just picked it up. Records have it Relis was shipped, in shame, on a cart back home on the same evening. It is this unclear what happens to the Blade, but we have countless of examples of Shardbearers dropping their Blades and they remaining solid: Renarin does it twice and he has nothing more than a few weeks of training. In fact, the only Shardbearer we have seen struggling with this particular command is Adolin.

4 hours ago, Krandacth said:

I've also always interpreted Relis' continued reaction, as well as hearing words that Kaladin does not, as him continuing to hear the Spren via his limited Bond. Relis fleeing reads like a paranoid schizophrenic being harried by persistent voices, rather then someone who heard a brief scream, which may or may not have contained snatches of words, followed by silence. This is especially true given that other examples of this scenario in the books are brushed off or otherwise dismissed (e.g. Tyn when hearing Pattern impersonating Jasnah).

My interpretation is different. I interpret his reaction as him freaking out and just running away from the Blade which has just screamed at him. I did not interpret the scene as him keeping on hearing the screams, but since we aren't privy to Relis's thoughts, we can't arguably prove it. 

4 hours ago, Krandacth said:

The thing I'm fairly sure of is that it wasn't Pattern. He was noted as being around earlier distracting Abrobadar, but then fled when Syl got too close. Also, if Pattern had been harrying Relis, with screams, then Kaladin would surely have heard them, if more faintly than the initial ones (depending on where Pattern was). Also also, if Pattern did make use of this effect, it would confirm for him that Kaladin was a proto-Radiant, which never comes up again...

I also agree it wasn't Pattern.

4 hours ago, Extesian said:

I agree it's not likely there's anything different about the sword or Relis. But the mechanics of this interests me. 

How about this (and feel free to correct any realmatic mistakes). Shardbearers without a Nahel bond don't hear their sword's screams because the Shardbearer is entirely within the physical realm. Kaladin, like anyone with a Nahel bond, will hear the screams because they're partly in the cognitive realm (or at least have a channel to it through their spren). When Kaladin grabs the sword that same channel to the cognitive realm is connecting Relis through his bond with his sword, either bringing him partly into the cognitive realm or at least letting him hear the screams that have always been there and letting the sword-spren directly communicate with him. There are a couple of realmatic assumptions I'm making there so I don't know if it's possible, but it would fit. 

I am terrible at anything having to do with the realms, but my thoughts have always been the dead-spren are trapped in between realms. They aren't stuck in neither the cognitive realm nor the physical realm, they seem to be stuck in an in-between. Brandon once stated the dead-Blade had some conscience of the physical realm, but I suspect it is very dim and fragmented. They do however alter their appearance if bonded long enough which do imply there is something to be said about the bond a Shardbearer has with his Blade. It seems entirely plausible Kaladin touching the Blade allowed for a stronger link to be made which made both individual holding the Blade to hear it scream.

One interesting experiment would be seeing if someone not-bonded to a specific Shardblade would hear the scream is touching this Blade at the same time as Radiant. In other words, is Relis hearing the screams a combination of him being bonded to the Blade and Kaladin touching it at the same time as he or is having a bond with it irrelevant?

[ARARITA he/him]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 7:49 PM, maxal said:

Moash never heard anything that we are aware of. As for Relis being special, well, I would ask you, do you honestly think he is or do you thunk there might be more to the scene? For my part, I am 100% convinced there is absolutely nothing special about Relis. As I said, reviving a Blade is practically impossible, too implausible for someone like Relis to pull it of. Quite frankly, that one is about as close to revive a Blade than a rock would be.

As for the words, Brandon did say the dead-Blades did have a limited conscience of present time, so Relis Blade is likely aware enough to yell at him, but there is quite a wall to cross it may be Blade revival. Also Brandon did say to bring a Blade to life, one would need to say the oaths (and they would need to be accepted) and something more would need to happen: nothing of the sorts happened with Relis and even if he were to magically start saying the right words, his dead-spren would likely not want him.

no of course I don't think he is special - but - I do think a dead spren talking is very special .. and I also don't believe this is us seeing part of the revival process - but BUT - what is going on ? that spren wasn't completely dead or something allowed it to be less dead for the moment

[Darkness he/him]

 

On ‎30‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 11:55 PM, maxal said:

my thoughts have always been the dead-spren are trapped in between realms. They aren't stuck in neither the cognitive realm nor the physical realm, they seem to be stuck in an in-between. Brandon once stated the dead-Blade had some conscience of the physical realm, but I suspect it is very dim and fragmented. They do however alter their appearance if bonded long enough which do imply there is something to be said about the bond a Shardbearer has with his Blade. It seems entirely plausible Kaladin touching the Blade allowed for a stronger link to be made which made both individual holding the Blade to hear it scream.

One interesting experiment would be seeing if someone not-bonded to a specific Shardblade would hear the scream is touching this Blade at the same time as Radiant. In other words, is Relis hearing the screams a combination of him being bonded to the Blade and Kaladin touching it at the same time as he or is having a bond with it irrelevant?

I think the spren aren't stuck in between so much as fragmented into the 3 separately. I also think that there is a literal snapback when the bond is broken, causing massive trauma to each part beyond what separating the 3 aspects of the spren would entail. The core intent and power of the spren gets locked into the spiritual realm, stunted so that it takes days to establish a bond with a person. The mind of the spren is much like the mind of a hoed, locked in the cognitive and only able to process the basest functions, like pain. The cognitive remains of the spren is so wounded that it takes 10 full heartbeats to reach it even once a rudimentary bond is established. The physical 'body' of the spren is similarly cut off from the other 2 aspects and broken such that it cant change form at will, but keeps a faint ability to be modified slowly over time.

I think the screams a surgebinder hears only occur when the spren's aspects are temporarily touched together through the surgebinder's naturally heightened connection to all 3 realms. However, only those who are bonded (the bearer and temporarily the surgebinder) and in close physical proximity (ie if the king's blade were on loan and a surgebinder touched it, neither the king nor the loanie would hear screaming under this assumption, but the surgebinder touching it would) to the blade can hear it. Relis might have heard the initial piercing scream, dropped the blade, heard the screams dying off as the spren's temporary connection (and his physical proximity to the blade) faded, and assumed that meant he killed it.

I would also love to know if a third, unbonded, person touching the blade would hear screams. I would also love to see an occasion where renarin or kaladin touches adolin's shardblade while he holds it. I think some very interesting thoughts would be inspired in adolin once the shock wore off. Heck even once he sees a radiantspren turn into a shardblade. As a side note: I dont belief any living non-surgebinder has seen a radiantblade in action. That knowledge of where blades come from might not change much, but it could lead to some very interesting conversation and eventual historical reveals.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Darkness
spelling

[maxal she/her]

On 5/3/2017 at 9:19 AM, ARARITA said:

no of course I don't think he is special - but - I do think a dead spren talking is very special .. and I also don't believe this is us seeing part of the revival process - but BUT - what is going on ? that spren wasn't completely dead or something allowed it to be less dead for the moment

I put in a series of question with respect to Relis's experience within the thread for this week-end signing. Hopefully, someone will ask a few of those questions. I did slip in one asking if there is anything special about Relis... I don't think there is, but huh, I thought it would be best to just ask.

On 5/3/2017 at 6:50 PM, Darkness said:

I think the spren aren't stuck in between so much and fragmented into the 3 separately. I also think that there is a literal snapback when the bond is broken, causing massive trauma to each part beyond what separating the 3 aspects of the spren would entail. The core intent and power of the spren gets locked into the spiritual realm, stunted so that it takes days to establish a bond with a person. The mind of the spren is much like the mind of a hoed, locked in the cognitive and only able to process the basest functions, like pain. The cognitive remains of the spren is so wounded that it takes 10 full heartbeats to reach it even once a rudimentary bond is established. The physical 'body' of the spren is similarly cut off from the other 2 aspects and broken such that it cant change form at will, but keeps a faint ability to be modified slowly over time.

I think the screams a surgebinder hears only occur when the spren's aspects are temporarily touched together through the surgebinder's naturally heightened connection to all 3 realms. However, only those who are bonded (the bearer and temporarily the surgebinder) and in close physical proximity (ie if the king's blade were on loan and a surgebinder touched it, neither the king nor the loanie would hear screaming under this assumption, but the surgebinder touching it would) to the blade can hear it. Relis might have heard the initial piercing scream, dropped the blade, heard the screams dying off as the spren's temporary connection (and his physical proximity to the blade) faded, and assumed that meant he killed it.

I would also love to know if a third, unbonded, person touching the blade would hear screams. I would also love to see an occasion where renarin or kaladin touches adolin's shardblade while he holds it. I think some very interesting thoughts would be inspired in adolin once the shock wore off. Heck even once he sees a radiantspren turn into a shardblade. As a side note: I dont belief any living non-surgebinder has seen a radiantblade in action. That knowledge of where blades come from might not change much, but it could lead to some very interesting conversation and eventual historical reveals.

I really love this explanation. If you are right, then it would imply reviving a Shardblade would require the "Radiant touch" in order for the three aspects to touch themselves long enough to be able to reform a Nahel bond with a potential knight.

I dread reading Adolin's reaction upon hearing the truth. Him, of all people, will probably find it hard.

[Darkness he/him]

To be honest, I might have to revise the Spiritual and Cognitive processes. Rereading my initial post, I think the Spiritual to Physical transition is what makes the dead shardblade have condensation on it. Jasnah comes from the Cognitive to Physical and she isn't soaking wet. Also, Syl doesn't have condensation when she changes forms because she doesn't need the 10 heartbeat revival every time she's summoned, same as Pattern (even when Shallan thought he needed 10 heartbeats he still wasn't wet).

So my final answer is that the 10 heartbeats thing is reaching into the spiritual to repeatedly revive the spren (which makes a fun symmetry with the heart being the hemalurgic bind point centre, and I believe it's supported), but the days-long forging of the initial bond is also reaching the Spiritual part of the spren. There is however, a little more to it.

See I was neglecting the exchange I've posted after this paragraph. You have to read the whole thing to really get a feel for the mechanics of realm interaction... I read most of the 90+ references on "spiritual" from theoryland today too haha. Anyway, just as the physical appearance of the blade changes slightly in response to the Cognitive mechanics (and quite possibly the Spiritual), the realms tend to bleed into each other and not be completely isolatable. So the spren is revived from the Spiritual and 10 heartbeats, but that is tempered by the Cognitive (conscious intention to summon the blade). Similarly, the initial bond is of a spiritual nature, but it is made and broken (i.e. filtered) through a Cognitive directive.

Interview: Feb 20th, 2015

Chicago

Kurkistan

So, could you give us some examples of how the ideals that spren represent work in other magic systems, like we have Forging where you get plausibility, or Returned how they're beautiful or any other systems?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, one more time on that.

Kurkistan
Okay, so you know the ideals the spren are manifestations--

Brandon Sanderson
Yes.

Kurkistan
How-- Do those have impacts on other magic systems?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes, yes, in the same way the Returned- that's the exact same system at work there.

Kurkistan
Is it the same reason why the Lord Ruler has to die of old age, and why you can't heal yourself into being an octopus or something?

Brandon Sanderson
Um... Yes, that is all connected in the exact same way.

Kurkistan
Okay, so it's all like these high falutin' spiritual ideals?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes.

Kurkistan
And are there like, median Cognitive ideals that gradually kind of influence these, or--

Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, they transcend between the three. I mean the original concept for the three realms is Platonic philosophy.

Kurkistan
So it goes up *makes absurd reverse-waterfall hand gesture*

Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, it goes up and it comes back down. A lot of the Cognitive is-- So like, the Cognitive has a bigger effect on how you can heal and things like that. Does that make sense?

Kurkistan
Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson
But the power to heal is a actually a spiritual thing.

Kurkistan
So it's like the spiritual says "I want to be like this" and the Cognitive is like "okay I'll try really hard to be like that, but I have a limit."

Brandon Sanderson
Right. Right. Filtered through how you see yourself, yeah.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Darkness
subtle change in response to greater thought.