20170403 - The Seeds of Dissolution - Ch6 and part of Ch7 - Mandamon - 5232

[Mandamon he/him]

Hello all,
A little bit awkward stop mid chapter this week. This is all of chapter 6, and the beginning of chapter 7, which used to be part of chapter 5, Rilan's POV.

Previously:
Ch1: Sam gets very cold, loses his aunt, and gets sucked through a hole
Ch2: Sam has a big freakout at the new world he's in, meets a strange alien
Ch3: Origon learns more about Sam
Ch4: Sam, on magic meds, sees the Imperium with Origon and Rilan. They dodge a protest against the maji and ride a tram to the Spire of the Maji.
Ch5: Sam discovers how big the universe is and how far he is from home.

Looking for:
-Connection with Origon as a character, in Ch 6?
-Can you keep the councilmembers straight?
-Connection with Rilan's character, in Ch 7?
-Anything else you see

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

This was fun to read.
I've been able to connect with Origon pretty well since the start (though I suspect I might be in a minority there).
I managed to keep (most of) the council members straight, but it is still a lot of information to take in. I don't see a way around it in this case, so it might be a good idea to give a little reminder if a council member shows up again.
Concerning Rilan in Ch 7, well, I'm learning things about her and her mindset, but I don't quite feel I'm connecting with her yet.

Some LBLs:

Nice start to Ch 6, underlining the differences in perspective between species and how they value things.

p2- "No crest to lie about his emotions, ..." I'm having trouble parsing this phrase.

p2- In the same sentence, I'd put "in any case" before "the Nether": as it is now it could be read as "there is no circumstance where Sam is happy".

p3- "sheer walls" (unless they use them to shave sheep? )

p3- "chip in the Sureri’s ear", nice detail and a telling hint at Origon's history and personality, without being heavy-handed.

p4- "Who is this boy?", I suggest replacing or rephrasing this question, as the following sentence proves Jhina already knows who he is (but not much about him).

p5- ", but there were honey colored spots..."

p6- "... protests here over Aridori scare." I believe "threat" or "unrest" would be better here, since (IMO) "scare" implies there are no grounds for the fear (and Freshta apparently believes there are).

p7- "There was a collecting shuffling..." collective?

p10- very evocative description of Sam's actions

[kais]

I'm baaa-aack.

Overall

Getting much smoother, but I continue to have problems with Origon and connecting with him. His sections always feel more choppy, even the way the paragraphs are constructed. So for your questions, I'm still not connecting with him. The council meeting is still a blur of characters (although it has more tension in it now than the last time I read it for sure!). Rilan is better, but I think bringing in some of her personality from book one would help, too. 

As I go

- I still find the epigraph vague. It really doesn't tell me anything about the Aridori or their war

- that first paragraph - having now read Tuning the Symphony, Origon's thought about Rilan complaining almost as much rings really false without some emotion behind it. Did they break it off under unfriendly terms? That's how this comes through. Sort of jilted-lover-esque

- How long would the Council be in session today?  I think this needs more lead-up to it. He's impatient because he wants to get to a council meeting, yes? And Sam is being slow? If so you could probably use a whole extra paragraph to help beef that up. It would be especially helpful in terms of setting the stage for the council meeting and its importance.

- Sam's response at the bottom of page one seems... not very excited. Is this the first time he's really 'seen' magic? Should he be more impressed?

- page three: You could probably start the chapter around here. I don't get much from the first three pages, other than some how magic works, which could be worked into somewhere else. The chapter has a slow start.

- He could always find the chip in the Sureri’s ear, a ... I had to read this section three times to get that you were talking about a carving of a Sureri. 

- Mandamon Feldo - did I forget you were in this book?

- page eight: the meeting is dragging here. I think maybe too many introductions and not enough tension in the talking

- Her place was on the Council, not gallivanting across the ten homeworlds. I sure hope this is covered in Merchants and Maji, because last I heard, those two were a handspan from making little Rilan-Origon halflings together

- I get the one apprentice that will have nothing to do with my entire field of expertise. They co... I think this would be a good place to bring up the whole 'Rilan can't actually do healing' thing. That was always an interesting trait of hers, and it would drive the silliness of the apprentice/master pairing here, too

[rdpulfer he/him]

- Minor Note: Might consider a better title than "Council Decisions" for the title.

- "You bring conspiracies theories first . . . " This sounds a little redundant to the first time the Freshta accused him of making up conspiracy theories. 

- I do like the council deliberations. They give Origon something to actively fight against, and besides, I like to see Origon upset

- I also like the interplay between Enos and Rilan as well. Very curious where this is going. 

[Mandamon he/him]

Thanks all!

@Eagle of the Forest Path Since you're connecting with Origon, what about him do you like? What would you like to see brought out more?

On 4/3/2017 at 7:59 AM, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

"sheer walls" (unless they use them to shave sheep? )

Aheh--only the pointy bits.

15 hours ago, kais said:

that first paragraph - having now read Tuning the Symphony, Origon's thought about Rilan complaining almost as much rings really false without some emotion behind it. Did they break it off under unfriendly terms? That's how this comes through. Sort of jilted-lover-esque

 

15 hours ago, kais said:

Her place was on the Council, not gallivanting across the ten homeworlds. I sure hope this is covered in Merchants and Maji, because last I heard, those two were a handspan from making little Rilan-Origon halflings together

I'll have to see what you think in a couple more chapters, @kais. Some reasons are coming out slightly past where you've read. Probably could use some more emotion from Origon here.

15 hours ago, kais said:

 Mandamon Feldo - did I forget you were in this book?

Feldo moves in mysterious ways...Though he's getting his own story after this book. He's going to start writing it for me if I don't get this thing finished up soon...

15 hours ago, kais said:

think this would be a good place to bring up the whole 'Rilan can't actually do healing' thing. That was always an interesting trait of hers, and it would drive the silliness of the apprentice/master pairing here, too

Check! Will do.

14 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

I do like the council deliberations. They give Origon something to actively fight against, and besides, I like to see Origon upset

Glad you like them, @rdpulfer! Annoying Origon is one of my favorite pastimes.

[Robinski he/him]

Chapter 6

• “At least the bridge to the Spire was only halfway back to the ground, or it would have taken even longer to get there.” – This is really obvious; I don’t think it’s worth saying.

• “No crest to lie about his emotions” – But isn’t the crest truthful about emotions? Or are you saying that Ori can use his crest to fake his reaction to something?

• “Maybe getting some food in him was in order after meeting with councilmembers was in order” – I feel like the phrasing is odd sometimes. Like here, for example. It seems odd to me to split Ori’s thought about feeing Sam into two parts by inserting what to me is a separate thought (albeit the following one). Maybe it’s just me.

• “his maroon jumpsuit about to shed its buttons” – Why would he wear clothes that didn’t fit properly?

• “disagreeing with almost everything the man did” – He’s not a man, presumably.

• “Now you make up allies” – confused, because Sam, clearly, is not made up, but is standing right there.

• “with the continuing indications of the Arid” – I feel like there’s an opportunity here to inject some tension, but it doesn’t really land for me. Something like ‘escalating sightings’, I think, feels more threatening. In a similar vein, actually, “crises brought to our attention with no proof”. Maybe it’s this character’s form of speech, but ‘unfounded crises’, I feel, has more punch. If it’s punch you want, which it might not be, of course.

• “Samuel v O” – yes, I like this better than the previous.

• “Sam recounted the same panicked account of his escape”

• “There was a collecting shuffling” – collective?

• “My apprentice and I” – I feel like he should be stressing the possessive element here.

• “A vote, then” – This feels ill-advised to me. Ori has the high ground of existing and long-established procedure behind him. Why would he surrender that by suggesting a vote when the head of this council has not adjudicated?

• “Sam drew in a breath. “I’m not good with new people and places” – I’m using this as an example of something I'm really noticing in this chapter. The lines of dialogue are really quite far apart, and the tagging and description between them is stifling the momentum of the scene, I think. I don’t feel it’s necessary to analyse each line after it’s spoken. If the dialogue is doing its job, I think the reader should be able to picture reactions, and put their own interpretation on body language and such, which would make the reader feel more involved in the scene, having greater ownership of it.

• “Even if you make me, I’m still going to help find out about the Drains” – isn’t this ‘even if you prevent me’, or similar?

• “He needed to escape with his few victories” – I feel like ‘rare’ or ‘occasional’ is more suited.

• “I believe my new apprentice and I will be having much to do, settling into my apartment, and the Nether, since it is so new for him.” If the Council would not take the Drains seriously, he would find his own support. “Time to go,” he murmured to Sam, and the young man nodded vigorously. They left the Council chambers, Sam for once right beside him.” – I feel like this ending outstays its welcome. In late, out early – and all that.

Chapter 7

• “last several cycles, and she was thankful” – I wouldn’t mention this, but I fell this is not the first pronoun that was missing.

• “far too early to for anyone to be hanging on her knocker” – odd phrase, kind of uncomfortable, imho.

• “about foisting this girl off on Ril” – Fresh’s phrasing is such that the apprentice could be hers or Ril’s.

• “and she approved of the choice of mentor” – the original phrase means something else, to me.

Overall, I feel there’s a good chapter in there, but I felt it dragging for the reason I noted above, the tendency for dissection towards dissection of each line of dialogue. I’d have enjoyed it a lot more if it had been pacier, with less explanation of everyone’s ticks and body language.

I might be suffering a bit from re-reading. I tend not to be very good at that. Once one knows a story, I think there’s an inevitable reduction in the engagement that comes from making new discoveries which must take the edge off generally, I would imagine.

Anyway, we’re getting past the introduction and into more active plot, I think, so I’m keen to see following chapters and some jeopardy and stakes.

<R>

[Robinski he/him]

Well, what do you know? I'm listening to Writing Excuses' latest cast S12-E14: Controlling Pacing with Structure, and they are talking about exactly the thing that bothered me about this chapter. I think it's about 13/14 minutes in (don't have a timer, annoyingly), after the 'book' of the week, when Brandon explains how he deals with pacing of narrative versus dialogue. This is exactly what I was talking about, the impact on the pacing of the chapter of having heavy narration through the dialogue scenes.

Edit 1: Oh yes, again. I think about 16mins in, Brandon talks about pupils in his class modifying every line of dialogue because of not trusting the dialogue to do the job. These guys are good, they should make this podcast a regular thing...

Edited April 8, 2017 by Robinski

[Mandamon he/him]

8 hours ago, Robinski said:

pupils in his class modifying every line of dialogue because of not trusting the dialogue to do the job.

Yep--I remember that one. I'll look back at this chapter and clean it up.

Thanks for the other comments as well. @Robinski. I think I can polish this chapter up a bit.

I promise I'll have new stuff next week for you (and it is bit different from what you read before). I'm working on Chapter 19 now (out of 30-something), and I'm trying to correct some of the things people bring up here in advance. Hopefully that means I'll have an entirely new set of problems!

[industrialistDragon]

Sorry for the late response, I was sick as a dog all week. Here are my comments... 

 

 

I love a good round of fantasy politics, but I did have a hard time keeping names and species straight here. This was the first introduction to a lot of these characters for me though, and I started in the middle more-or-less, so some of that is to be expected. I still get a little mixed up when Origon is referred to by his species, even.

Speaking of O, while I like him and enjoy his chapters, I can't say I really "connect" with him. He's not the kind of guy, it seems to me, who really "connects" with people easily, and that's reflected in his POV.  Is it necessary for the reader to have a connection with him?

"Her place was on the Council, not gallivanting across the ten homeworlds."  I dunno, seems like with the amount of rumors and unrest right now, a press junket wouldn't be a horrible idea....

I feel for Rilan much more, since it's easy to connect with getting railroaded by bureaucrats and being grumpy at being woken up early. She also seems a little more everyman than Origon. 

I'm getting the idea like some of the issues and lack of connections I'm feeling here are due to this being a ....third? fourth? book in an ongoing series I haven't read. There's a weight of continuity there the lack of which is affecting my understanding of some of the tension and subtleties of interactions, especially in this chapter. This makes me wonder how much you're looking for new reader buy-in at this stage: if most of the tension and interactions have roots in previous books that series-readers will already understand, is it necessary to make sure the politics-heavy section is intelligible and captivating to someone starting in the middle, or would that just alienate your series-reads who will find the retread repetitive?  Of course, the flip side to that is if your plot-heavy arguing-politicians section can't stand on its own enough to grab a new reader, is it in good enough shape to keep series-readers who already know how far they can skip ahead to get to the interesting bits without losing the thread of the story? 

Which is a long-winded way of saying I got nothing. sorry.  :/ 

 

[Mandamon he/him]

Thanks @industrialistDragon! Glad you're feeling better.

14 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

Speaking of O, while I like him and enjoy his chapters, I can't say I really "connect" with him. He's not the kind of guy, it seems to me, who really "connects" with people easily, and that's reflected in his POV.  Is it necessary for the reader to have a connection with him?

This is mostly what I'm going for with this character, so I'm glad it's coming across. I don't necessarily need the reader to connect, per se, but I don't want them to get bored in his POV. So seems like it's working?

14 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

I feel for Rilan much more, since it's easy to connect with getting railroaded by bureaucrats and being grumpy at being woken up early. She also seems a little more everyman than Origon.

Cool. Just what I want.

14 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

I'm getting the idea like some of the issues and lack of connections I'm feeling here are due to this being a ....third? fourth? book in an ongoing series I haven't read

Yeeeahhh...this is one of my biggest ongoing challenges. This will be the third published story, but the first two are novellas, so very short, whereas this one is a full novel, around 150k. So I both want readers who read the others to pick up the clues that tie to previous stories, as well as new readers to not get too confused. I wouldn't mind new readers on this book to say, "hey--I should read those other stories to get more background," but I also don't want new readers to be completely confused. It's a really hard balance, I'm finding. That said, it's invaluable for readers like you who haven't read the others to tell me where things get too dense and I need to explain more. Sooo...thanks and keep up the good work?

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

On 4/4/2017 at 3:47 PM, Mandamon said:

 Since you're connecting with Origon, what about him do you like? What would you like to see brought out more?

Okay, so this is a pretty tough question and I've been thinking on it on and off for a week now. I think I can give you a bit of an answer now:

I always* find Origon fun to read, in large part because I think it's really interesting to see how his common sense conflicts with other people's/characters' common sense.

 

*"always" meaning all of his appearances in SoD, as it's the only one I've read so far that has Origon in it.

[Mandamon he/him]

4 hours ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

I always* find Origon fun to read, in large part because I think it's really interesting to see how his common sense conflicts with other people's/characters' common sense.

Cool! Thanks @Eagle of the Forest Path. That tells me I'm on the right track with how I want to portray him. I may ask in later chapters if he's still consistent.