Theory about Taln

[dayman]

*Obligatory statement about how I'm sure someone else has posted this but I haven't seen it and I'm sorry if it's out there already and take no credit etc. etc.*

WoB state there are never more than 3 bondsmiths at a time...and that bondsmiths are closer to the Heralds than the other Knights Radiant.  We saw Dalinar bond with the Stormfather to become a bondsmith.  There are ... obviously ... 3 Gods known to the system.  Therefore, it makes sense that bondsmiths bond with the spren of a God.  In all likelihood then, someone could bond with the Nightwatcher (perhaps the spren of Cultivation) and become a bondsmith.  Someone could, therefore, also bond with Odium in some manner. 

What if Taln has bonded with Odium's spren and is basically a spy sent back from Damnation for as of yet unknown dubious reasons? 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

I actually think you're the first to post this idea, so props for originality.

I feel like the way other KR Spren are (a mix of Honor and Cultivation) means that none of the Bondsmith Spren should be of Odium.

That said, he should still have some Stormfather level Spren because the other two have them. So it is entirely possible that someone could bond it. I don't think many people could fully express a mindset of pure hate in order to bond with it, Taln least of all, but that's my opinion. 

Lastly, given the Blade switch between WoK and WoR, I don't think he's a spy for Odium, mostly because I don't think Odium would let Taln's Honorblade just get taken. (He might have figured out a way to use Voidlight? to stand in for Stormlight to power the magic) but even if he couldn't, I don't see him letting it out of his sight and potentially ending up with the good guys.

Edited April 3, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Minor spelling/grammar

[Spoolofwhool]

The issue I have with the overall theory that the three bondsmiths are bonded to three spren, each one associated with one of the shards, is that we have been told that the spren which form the Nahel Bond are of Honor and Cultivation, with the implication of only being of those two. Therefore, I don't think Taln is bonded to a nahel bond spren. However, that does not exclude the possibility that he is somehow affected by Odium's investiture.

[dayman]

18 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The issue I have with the overall theory that the three bondsmiths are bonded to three spren, each one associated with one of the shards, is that we have been told that the spren which form the Nahel Bond are of Honor and Cultivation, with the implication of only being of those two. Therefore, I don't think Taln is bonded to a nahel bond spren. However, that does not exclude the possibility that he is somehow affected by Odium's investiture.

So...I mean...no more than 3 bondsmiths at a time....and the one we have seen is bonded the Stormfather (Honor's personal spren in some sense)...we also know that the Nightwatcher is likely something similar only connected to Cultivation (because Lyft's spren refers to her as mother)....it follows that Odium would have something similar. 

We really don't have enough to intelligently discuss this beyond that I don't think but 3 is a pretty convincing number and if 1 of them is the Stormfather you would think the others are connected to the other shards. 

Also, I get the comment that bondsmiths are KR and therefore not Odium...but we really don't actually know that for sure.  I mean, even referring to them as a proper/standard order of KR (given that we know there are only 3) is weird...so it's possible a bondsmith is something different than a standard KR (WoB almost confirm this in saying they're closer to Heralds)...perhaps something with close bond to a shard.  If that is the case...the number 3 has even more significance. 

So here, the idea would simply be that "Taln" is in fact an impostor sent from Damnation posing as Taln, to do Odium's bidding...perhaps to undermine attempts by Dalinar to unite them or even to "unite" those who would further Odiums end-game (for whatever reason). 

The main thing here is that he's definitely got some info that only a Herald (or something else from Damnation) would ahve and he's definitely not being confirmed as Taln by Brandon .... and he's definitely got abilities (snatching poison darts) and he's set up to get with the Vorin nuts (Sons of Honor) and Amaram (which are inventively on the wrong side)....so I could see it happening where he's there to steer things in a way that frustrates everything Dalinar is doing....and if the Heralds are not helping (which the few we know are around do not seem to be helping) then him posing as a Herald will allow a lot "frustration" to ensue (really...he could completely undermine Dalinar and put the Sons of Honor in charge of everything if he plays his cards correctly).  

Edited April 3, 2017 by dayman

[Spoolofwhool]

39 minutes ago, dayman said:

.it follows that Odium would have something similar. 

Except that we've been explicitly told that the nahel bond sprens are of Honor and Cultivation, with the implication that they are only of Honor or Cultivation. Also, this is a personal aside, but the fact that the Stormfather has a significant connection to Honor doesn't feel that relevant to me, nor do I think should be taken that critically, considering this is the first time that the Stormfather has actually nahel bonded someone. Previous times, prior to the Recreance, Honor was still alive then, and it follows that it was only the spren which fused with his shadow to become the Stormfather which bonded. 

[Calderis he/him]

39 minutes ago, dayman said:

So...I mean...no more than 3 bondsmiths at a time....and the one we have seen is bonded the Stormfather (Honor's personal spren in some sense)...we also know that the Nightwatcher is likely something similar only connected to Cultivation (because Lyft's spren refers to her as mother)....it follows that Odium would have something similar. 

We really don't have enough to intelligently discuss this beyond that I don't think but 3 is a pretty convincing number and if 1 of them is the Stormfather you would think the others are connected to the other shards. 

The in world Words of Radiance says, 

"But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.From Words of Radiance"

I've always understood that last line to mean that their Spren is very specific, as in the Stormfather, so it would have been considered seditious to increase their numbers, because impressive as he is the Stormfather couldn't bond with more than a few people. This is further evidenced by the bondsmiths sharing a common set of abilities (tension, adhesion) as the abilities a surgebinder gains are determined by the Spren they bond. All Lightweavers bond Cryptic s and so forth. If a bondsmith were to bond a Spren of the same magnitude but a different nature then the Stormfather, how would that grant the same abilities. 

And additional opposition to the idea of an Odium based bondsmith: The orders themselves were based off of the Spren mimicking what honor did, and I can't imagine a Spren, a splinter,  of Odium mimicking the actions of Honor.

All my opinion, but I think it holds up with the evidence I've seen in book. 

[dayman]

20 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The issue I have with the overall theory that the three bondsmiths are bonded to three spren, each one associated with one of the shards, is that we have been told that the spren which form the Nahel Bond are of Honor and Cultivation, with the implication of only being of those two. Therefore, I don't think Taln is bonded to a nahel bond spren. However, that does not exclude the possibility that he is somehow affected by Odium's investiture.

 

42 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Except that we've been explicitly told that the nahel bond sprens are of Honor and Cultivation, with the implication that they are only of Honor or Cultivation. Also, this is a personal aside, but the fact that the Stormfather has a significant connection to Honor doesn't feel that relevant to me, nor do I think should be taken that critically, considering this is the first time that the Stormfather has actually nahel bonded someone. Previous times, prior to the Recreance, Honor was still alive then, and it follows that it was only the spren which fused with his shadow to become the Stormfather which bonded. 

Both good points. I had not thought of the idea that the "stormfather" as we know it did not exist until Honor's death (obviously it was deeply shaped by his death but I assumed it existed in some (similar) form before that)...nor did I know about that passage of WoR. 

Meh...just spit-balling here but these are good points.  Bondsmith may be a stretch...but most agree there is something going on with "Taln."  Whatever that is, I still think it's something nefarious. 

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by dayman

[The One Who Connects he/him]

3 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

, considering this is the first time that the Stormfather has actually nahel bonded someone. Previous times, prior to the Recreance, Honor was still alive then, and it follows that it was only the spren which fused with his shadow to become the Stormfather which bonded. 

I'll have to disagree here, mainly because Yata convinced me a while back from Pattern's words that the Stormfather was a victim of the Recreance as well. I understand what you mean about how it would've been different when Honor lived, but the Spren that modern man calls the Stormfather was bonded in Recreance times.

unless of course I've misread and that's what you were trying to say(upon reread it looks like it).

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

've always understood that last line to mean that their Spren is very specific, as in the Stormfather, so it would have been considered seditious to increase their numbers, because impressive as he is the Stormfather couldn't bond with more than a few people. If a bondsmith were to bond a Spren of the same magnitude but a different nature then the Stormfather, how would that grant the same abilities.

Thanks to Yata as well, we have a WoB that explicitly states they bonded 3 different Spren. I'll find it in the morning (assuming he doesn't ninja it overnight like Kurk did in that one thread..)

[Calderis he/him]

33 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Thanks to Yata as well, we have a WoB that explicitly states they bonded 3 different Spren. I'll find it in the morning (assuming he doesn't ninja it overnight like Kurk did in that one thread..)

That... Actually bothers me a lot. Mainly because of the portion of my post you didn't quote... How do the three bondsmiths use the same surges if they are bonded to different Spren? It runs contrary to one of the few rules that I thought was really concrete as far as the basis of surgebinding goes. The surges are granted by the type of Spren bonded. Whereas this indicates the surge is decided by the order independent of the Spren involved.

It seems like an inconsistency of the type we rarely see from Brandon. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Calderis

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'll have to disagree here, mainly because Yata convinced me a while back from Pattern's words that the Stormfather was a victim of the Recreance as well. I understand what you mean about how it would've been different when Honor lived, but the Spren that modern man calls the Stormfather was bonded in Recreance times.

unless of course I've misread and that's what you were trying to say(upon reread it looks like it).

My opinion is that the spren which became the Stormfather was bonded and suffered the Recreance. What is it now, fused to Tanavast's cognitive shadow, and what it was before, are very similar, so saying the Stormfather suffered the Recreance is generally correct. The point I'm driving, and you can ignore whatever name you want to call the spren, is that the direct connection to Honor that people are using to argue that all three Bondsmith spren having some direct shard connection, didn't exist before. That's it. I'm not saying the spren wasn't bonded, I'm saying the spren with its direct relevance to Honor wasn't bonded, because that relevance didn't exist.

44 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That... Actually bothers me a lot. Mainly because of the portion of my post you didn't quote... How do the three bondsmiths use the same surges if they are bonded to different Spren? It runs contrary to one of the few rules that I thought was really concrete as far as the basis of surgebinding goes. The surges are granted by the type of Spren bonded. Whereas this indicates the surge is decided by the order independent of the Spren involved.

It seems like an inconsistency of the type we rarely see from Brandon. 

You're operating on the assumption that each pair of surgebinding powers can only be granted by a specific spren type. That has never been stated as actually being a thing, only that the nine general types and the three special spren for Bondsmiths were the ones who attempted and gave surgebinding to humans. While the surgebinding powers are unique, there has been nothing which has been said that another type of spren couldn't bond and make a windrunner as well.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[dayman]

44 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That... Actually bothers me a lot. Mainly because of the portion of my post you didn't quote... How do the three bondsmiths use the same surges if they are bonded to different Spren? It runs contrary to one of the few rules that I thought was really concrete as far as the basis of surgebinding goes. The surges are granted by the type of Spren bonded. Whereas this indicates the surge is decided by the order independent of the Spren involved.

It seems like an inconsistency of the type we rarely see from Brandon. 

Just thinking out loud here but why do we know bondsmiths all have the same powers or necessarily work like normal KRs?

[dayman]

The other note is just that if they're all bonded to the Stormfather why limit it to 3? Why not 1 or infinite? The shardblade part makes some sense if it was 1 but...if he doesn't have to be around all the time and form a weapon or protect the human then I'm not sure why there is a limit...unless they're not all bonded to the Stormfather (and if they are 3 different "god spren" then it still makes sense to have no sword just b/c they're so "important" and above that sort of usage).

I'll also point out that the Stormfather is kind of a ****.  He sent the storm to kill everyone and tried to stop Syl from bonding with Kaladin at the moment Kaladin was going to die. He only bonded with Dalinar reluctantly after (presumably) he had no choice following the spoken words.  So ... IDK ... didn't seem like the type to take multiple bonds ...

Edited April 4, 2017 by dayman

[Calderis he/him]

14 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

You're operating on the assumption that each pair of surgebinding powers can only be granted by a specific spren type. That has never been stated as actually being a thing, only that the nine general types and the three special spren for Bondsmiths were the ones who attempted and gave surgebinding to humans. While the surgebinding powers are unique, there has been nothing which has been said that another type of spren couldn't bond and make a windrunner as well.

You're right it is an assumption, and I can see that. It just seems odd to me that one order bonds three distinct spren that offer the same surges, while the others all bond a specific Spren type. If multiple Spren can create the same surges, and the surges are the basis for the orders, then each order should have multiple spren available, and the only thing to distinguish the bondsmiths would be their limited numbers and the... Magnitude....  of their spren.

Again an issue I see though that lends itself to a single spren, and makes me annoyed with the bondsmiths having unique spren, the oaths. The oaths are based on the Spren that is attracted to that order. It's why we've heard that though the oaths may be worded differently, they will have the same meaning at their heart for a particular level of advancement within each order.

The Bondsmiths having different spren should mean that those spren would interpret the goals and morality of their order differently and therefore have individualistic oaths. If they are identical oaths, then what exactly differentiates those spren as they are Cognitive entities, and two Cognitive entities that think identically should be, for all intents and purposes, identical. 

23 minutes ago, dayman said:

Just thinking out loud here but why do we know bondsmiths all have the same powers or necessarily work like normal KRs?

Nothing particularly says they work like other KRs, but we do know they have the same powers due to the placement of the orders on the surgebinding chart. They share Adhesion with Windrunners, and Tension with Stonewards. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

10 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

My opinion is that the spren which became the Stormfather was bonded and suffered the Recreance. What is it now, fused to Tanavast's cognitive shadow, and what it was before, are very similar, so saying the Stormfather suffered the Recreance is generally correct. The point I'm driving, and you can ignore whatever name you want to call the spren, is that the direct connection to Honor that people are using to argue that all three Bondsmith spren having some direct shard connection, didn't exist before. That's it. I'm not saying the spren wasn't bonded, I'm saying the spren with its direct relevance to Honor wasn't bonded, because that relevance didn't exist.

Ok, so I did read it wrong the first time. I agree with this now that I understand it correctly. Sorry for the misunderstanding

edit: @Calderis, I found the post where it was confirmed to be separate Spren.

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[dayman]

10 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Ok, so I did read it wrong the first time. I agree with this now that I understand it correctly. Sorry for the misunderstanding

edit: @Calderis, I found the post where it was confirmed to be separate Spren.

 

Yea, I agree this theory (my theory) is almost certainly not correct.

So the higher post is interesting...is it a pure theory or supported in text that the storm father was born out of the recreance through the merging of murdered spren? It does make sense in that the spren of honor then existing and sentient would refer to themselves as Honor's spren/shadow...

[Spoolofwhool]

23 minutes ago, dayman said:

So the higher post is interesting...is it a pure theory or supported in text that the storm father was born out of the recreance through the merging of murdered spren? It does make sense in that the spren of honor then existing and sentient would refer to themselves as Honor's spren/shadow...

From what we know, it seems that before Honor's death, there was a powerful spren whom the Listeners called Rider of Storms, who apparently betrayed them by giving surges to humans. After Tanavast's death it fused with his cognitive shadow, or the human interpretation of Tanavast, becoming the Stormfather that is known now.  What this fusing means is generally unclear. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

I think the 3rd bondsmith is bonded to a spren of adonalsium. An original spren, before honor and cultivation came, who got adopted into the bondsmiths. For some reason

[Krandacth]

2 hours ago, The Flash said:

I think the 3rd bondsmith is bonded to a spren of adonalsium. An original spren, before honor and cultivation came, who got adopted into the bondsmiths. For some reason

Well, that was already the case for the Stormfather/Rider of Storms, as has been discussed above... I would argue that all Bondsmith spren were likely mega-spren of Adonalsium, and the Stormfather has only become so closely related to Honor since the Recreance.

[Steeldancer he/him]

So then, the question to really ask brandon, is "can there be three bondsmiths at once right now" and that will either confirm or reject this theory. 

[iohn he/him]

So, also, what if there can be an odiumspren, but not necessarily of odium. This is a little twisty but spren are essentially cognitive things coming into the physical world, so if the people of Roshar, who are of Honor and Cultivation, have a concept of Odium, or at least some kind of devil, then that could create an odiumspren that is actually of honor/cultivation. This is kind of seperate from the issue of Taln, but could provide a godspren for a Bondsmith to bond.
On another note, there could be several sources of godspren, really any and all religions of Roshar could produce one or several godspren, and they would all have the worship or fear or whatever of mortals in common, hence providing the same powers to bondsmiths.

[Djarskublar he/him]

One thing that may warrant discussion in context of this is that, theoretically, it is possible for Szeth to bond Nightblood and gain Surges. We don't know which Surges, but that's irrelevant. 

One thing I've always thought noteworthy is that it says to grow the order beyond 3 members was considered seditious. For that to even be considered, it must have been possible. My guess is that the 3 megaspren are so 'big' they can bond multiple people, but the bond is similar to a marriage, so I don't see their cultures going along with that. Something along those lines, anyway.

[Krandacth]

20 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

One thing I've always thought noteworthy is that it says to grow the order beyond 3 members was considered seditious. For that to even be considered, it must have been possible.

I think it is useful to view that quote in the context of its origin, and with an example:

This quote is from a book written around 200 years after the Recreance based on admitted hearsay, the sources of which would have to have been, by the nature of the Recreance, outside of the Orders.

Now, imagine how the following conversation could be interpreted by the Non-Radiant participant (let alone those they may later have talked to about the conversation, or those who heard of it 200 years later):

Non-Radiant: Wow, you Bondsmiths have a lot of responsibilities. How do you manage when there's only 3 of you?? Why don't you take on some more members? Spread the load a bit?

Bondsmith: That would be nice! But no, we couldn't. (And no more was said on the matter, because all Radiants seem to be reluctant to talk about their Spren or their Bonds (Syl with the Bridgemen at first, Ivory as described by Jasnah, mentioned in world WoR itself).)

Given that none of the other Orders seem limited in such a way, the idea that such a limit was one of tradition and convention rather than one of practicality would be perfectly natural. As such, the interpretation of the suggestion being seditious relies on the assumption of more Bonds being possible, not on their actual possibility.

On the other hand, that assumption could be right... I'm just pointing out that it doesn't have to be, by a faint breeze or a storm wind. :-P

Edited April 8, 2017 by Krandacth
Fixed post :-)