Nahel - Why this word?

[Tsidqiyah he/him]

Following are my thoughts on this matter:

(started form Argent's post about Spren History.)

I realize little of this might not be new for some of you, I am sorry if nothing here is novel for the group.

A quick search for Nahel brings up the Arabic name which loosely translates as "[One/He/She] who quenches its thirst".  As the spelling is exactly the same I am inclined to believe this is a clue as to why the bonds are formed.

ALL spren thirst for physical experience. It was discovered that by connecting themselves with physical beings they are able to get those experiences. I disagree with the common thought that the bond brings them closer to the physical realm. I believe that spren can jump into the physical as wind spren don't seem to have a bond but they are in the the physical realm to some extent and able to minimally interact with physical things. The bond allows them to experience it in a very different way then just observing and minimal interactions. BTW I am on board with Argent's postulate that ALL bonds grant surgebinding especially in context that a Selish person with a bonded Aon (that was able make the jump to Roshar) would have access to some form of Surges.

The higher spen is the higher a creature needs to be to fill this need. The Radiant Spren NEED more then a skyeel, cremling, or greatshell to quench their thirst. They need something intelligent and self aware. I suspect they couldn't bond with the listeners until the Shards came and the ambient magic system (think of the birds on First of the Sun) moved into a actively wielded magic system. Then the Radiant Spren started bonding with the native race, but then moved on to humans when they were shown they could get better experiences from more physical beings possibly from seeing how much more powerful the Heralds were. They may have surmised that Humans could wield the surges more powerfully and deduced that meant they would get better/stronger experiences. 

Following this I believe that a human will always outstrip a Listener in power because as the Spren gets more it can give more. The only reason Void spren are not bonding forcibly with Humans to get the better/stronger experiences is the fact that the further from the cognitive realm a being is the more free it will be to reject the bond. but this gets off topic slightly.

 

TLDR: Spren thirst for physical experience, they can get minimal experience just by interacting with the world, but get more by bonding with a physical being. The word Nahel is used to hint at this relationship as the bonds quenches this thirst.  It is easier to bond with unintelligent / unaware creatures, but less is gained for the spren and less is granted in return. 

[StormyAngel he/him]

That sound's reasonably plausible. I can see you're pulling from the listener stanza in WOR that refers to Humans being like meat to the Spren, whereas the listeners are some kind of lesser nourishment (sorry, I don't remember the exact wording). Given that the spren bonded with the Radiants are distinct individuals (speaking and thinking separately), whereas the spren bonded with Listeners/Parshendi are not, there must be a reason for that.

I particularly like the way this makes the Nahel bond about the spren. For some reason i always focused on the other side of the bond, wondering what it was about them that made this a "nahel" bond. Come to think of it, what are listener's bonds with spren called? Are those also Nahel bonds?

A note though, we have yet to actually see a voidspren forcibly bond with anyone. While it is made clear that Eshonai is not in control of herself after bonding with a voidspren, the actual bonding was something she chose to do, at least at first. The Stormfather does seem to indicate that the new storm will change all parshmen regardless, although I have to wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that they are all mindless drones. Theoretically, an intelligent listener (read: parshendi group that escaped eshonai's stormform group) should be able to find shelter during the storm and avoid the transformation. Or if physical shelter doesn't cut it, then they can maybe refuse the bonding initially, as opposed to initiating it and then frantically trying to change their minds like eshonai did.

[skaa he/him]

Good call on the etymology of "nahel". I bet that's exactly where Brandon got it. *upvotes*

The fact that Radiant spren need ("thirst for") something from humans was (as you guys probably know) already established in WoK:

Quote

 

“I’m behind what is happening to you,” she said, voice soft. “I’m doing it.”

Kaladin frowned, stepping forward.

“It’s both of us,” she said. “But without me, nothing would be changing in you. I’m… taking something from you. And giving something in return. It’s the way it used to work, though I can’t remember how or when. I just know that it was.”

 

Now, I know that a Nahel bond allows a human to Surgebind, but they also get something else: With the help of the Words they utter, the Knights Radiant also experience spiritual growth. Given that Radiants are "broken" to some extent (at according to Syl), I wonder if the "one quenching its thirst" isn't just the spren but the human as well, and that the human's thirst is the thirst for self-actualization (think Maslow).

I guess I might as well express my one disagreement. Unlike @Tsidqiyah, I espouse the common thought that the bond brings spren closer to the physical realm, though I would phrase it as "the bond strengthens their Connection to the Physical Realm". In this, I agree with @Argent. To connect this with my idea above, I think that while spren get a stronger Connection to the Physical Realm from the bond, humans could be getting a stronger Connection to the Spiritual Realm (the realm of ideals, e.g. the idealized version of oneself) from it, leading eventually to self-actualization.

Edit: Another possible origin of the word "nahel" is in Hebrew, where it apparently means "to lead a flock to a watering shed". Both definitions are related to quenching thirst, and the Hebrew word is probably cognate with the Arabic one because Hebrew and Arabic are part of the same language family (Semitic).

Edited March 10, 2017 by skaa

[Tsidqiyah he/him]

14 hours ago, StormyAngel said:

A note though, we have yet to actually see a voidspren forcibly bond with anyone. 

Edgedancer Spoiler:

 

Spoiler

Isn't that what we see with the Parshmen that are banished during the Everstorm?

At least that is how i interpreted the event.

 

[Calderis he/him]

Look at Eshonai's POV's, I don't think there is a form of listener bond that isn't forceful. The right mindset and song helps attract the right spren, but she states that prior to bringing captive spren into the storm, you could go out wanting warform, and end up as a mate. I think all they can do it put themselves out into the storm at the moment of the change and hope that the correct spren is nearest. Once that spren is focused on them, the change happens regardless of what they want. If it were somehow only able to occur through acceptance of the spren, changing to a form they hadn't intended wouldn't be possible. 

[Samaldin he/him]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Look at Eshonai's POV's, I don't think there is a form of listener bond that isn't forceful. The right mindset and song helps attract the right spren, but she states that prior to bringing captive spren into the storm, you could go out wanting warform, and end up as a mate. I think all they can do it put themselves out into the storm at the moment of the change and hope that the correct spren is nearest. Once that spren is focused on them, the change happens regardless of what they want. If it were somehow only able to occur through acceptance of the spren, changing to a form they hadn't intended wouldn't be possible. 

I think the start of a change of forms can´t be forced, but once the change has started it can´t be stopped. Listeners could get the wrong forms because the are starting the bonding process by "kicking" their old bonded Spren out and inviting a new on in, but the wrong kind of Spren responds (like when you´re calling for your friend in a crowd but someone else responds). They probably need the highstom because the "kicking out" and the new bonding requiers much Investiture.

Continuation of theory with a bit of Edgedancerspoiler

Spoiler

Parshmen work a little bit differently since they´re not realy a form, so they don´t have to "kick" their old Spren out and because of that they can´t deny a transformation. I´m pretty sure if a Parshmen would be left in a Highstorm he would come out as a Parshendi (probably Dullform).

 

[Calderis he/him]

I don't agree. They aren't choosing to eject their spren. Failed transformations wouldn't be possible if that were true. All failed transformations would result in dull form or worse Parshmen.

And on the idea of Parshmen becoming dullform... Parshmen lack "music." without the songs, I don't believe they have what is required to draw a sprens attention in the first place. Voidspren, whether created or corrupted, seem to have the making of Voidbringers as a part of their purpose, so I don't think the music is required, as it is with normal spren. No evidence for any of this obviously, but it's what I think. 

[Weltall]

Nice find on the origin of the word!

As for the Parshendi transformation issue and Edgedancer, there's a recent WoB that's relevant:

Yulerule: If a Parshendi takes a parshman by the hand, gives them a gemstone with a spren in it, leads him out into a highstorm, can the parshman become a parhsendi in the same way that they become a voidbringer?

A: Now, yes, before no. The everstorm changed them, there’s something going on.

So until the Everstorm arrived, for whatever reason the Parshmen simply couldn't bond with a spren and take a form.

[Samaldin he/him]

8 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Nice find on the origin of the word!

As for the Parshendi transformation issue and Edgedancer, there's a recent WoB that's relevant:

  Hide contents

 

 

So until the Everstorm arrived, for whatever reason the Parshmen simply couldn't bond with a spren and take a form.

 

And i thought i had figuered something out, thank you for the WoB have an upvote.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

22 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't agree. They aren't choosing to eject their Spren. Failed transformations wouldn't be possible if that were true.

We have a WoB that when they switch forms, "the Spren is released." That certainly implies that the Spren in question is allowed to leave.

On a somewhat related note, I feel that they can only change once per Highstorm. Nobody mentions trying again, Eshonai says that there was "an element of chance with the transformation(singular)^[28]" Also, the scene where Kaladin was strung up in the Highstorm did not seem like it lasted more than several minutes, so even if they are able to change more than once, the storm has moved on by the time they see what form they came out as, so it is no longer feasible.

Edited March 11, 2017 by The One Who Connects
wording..

[Calderis he/him]

20 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

We have a WoB that when they switch forms, "the Spren is released." That certainly implies that the Spren in question is allowed to leave. 

Yes the Spren is released, but that is a part of the transformation process. It isn't just a choice. And even if it were a purely voluntary process (which again, I think unintended form changes imply it's not) that's not simply "ejecting" the Spren.

I think that a Listener who is not inside a shelter at that strange Magical, Cognitive moment in the storm, and has a spren near enough to be drawn in will change, regardless of desire or intent. The change itself is what releases the Spren of the now shed form.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yes the Spren is released, but that is a part of the transformation process. It isn't just a choice. And even if it were a purely voluntary process (which again, I think unintended form changes imply it's not) that's not simply "ejecting" the Spren.

Fair enough. "eject" isn't the same thing. I guess I interpreted it as allowing the Spren to leave(like they were somehow trapped) and made a jump in logic.

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think that a Listener who is not inside a shelter at that strange Magical, Cognitive moment in the storm, and has a spren near enough to be drawn in will change, regardless of desire or intent.

I slightly disagree. "There's a measure of will behind it"

Quote

Question

A Dullform Listener is indoors when the Everstorm passes over, will they be transformed into a Voidform?

Brandon Sanderson

No. It depends on the strength of the boundary between them, but it is possible for them to...Being transformed, taking new forms, there is a measure of will behind it, meaning for instance, even when Eshonai took the new form, she had herself open to taking a new form. By the time she didn’t want to, it was too late. But she had made the decision, even though she’d been kind of misled in some ways. If a Parshmen were even in the Everstorm, and aggressively didn't want this to happen, I'm not saying they won't, but there is room for discussion whether or not they would change there. But also one who DOES want to, and there's only a pane of glass and things like that, then yeah.

 

[Calderis he/him]

Ah. I haven't seen that one before. Then, if I understand the quote correctly, they have to be willing to change, but once the transformation has begun there's no ability to stop it, i.e. No "this isn't the Spren I wanted" moment.

Allows for unintended changes but no ability for a change when you wanted to stay in your original form. 

Makes sense. Thank you 

[Steeldancer he/him]

On 3/10/2017 at 1:52 PM, Weltall said:

Nice find on the origin of the word!

As for the Parshendi transformation issue and Edgedancer, there's a recent WoB that's relevant:

  Hide contents

 

 

So until the Everstorm arrived, for whatever reason the Parshmen simply couldn't bond with a spren and take a form.

 

Ah I don't know if anybody read the oathbringer prologue, but 

Spoiler

Humans captured a spren that gavilar believed would allow the parshpeople to transform if released by the everstorm. Implying there is a spren that regulates the ability of parshmen to transform, and now that it had been released by the everstorm... maybe an unmade?