Oudeis he/him Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Gravity is a thing. Matter is attracted to matter. Surface tension? Look at the nearest puddle of water. Air pressure: It does breathing good. Illumination? My room is full of it. Friction happens naturally. Transformation? Um... I suggest that Transformation is the odd Surge out. It's the only one we know of that doesn't happen naturally. ((Disclaimer: I'm not sure we've ever seen Transportation in action. If it's teleporting, it could be the other odd Surge, but for now I'm leaving it (and the unknown Surge) out of this calculation since we know next to nothing about it). Things don't transform. Obvious exception: Seeds turn into trees. Caterpillars turn into butterflies. But those are both covered by Growth. Water turns into ice? I'm not sure I agree that this is the same thing. A man is naturally drawn downwards. Magically, the direction of that can be sent sideways. Seeds take in metabolic energy and grow into plants; stormlight provides an alternate energy source and adapts the rate of growth. These are all natural processes that change under the influence of Surgebinding. Crystal goblets are not in the habit of turning into puddles of blood for no reason. Men don't puff into smoke at random. There's no basic natural force at play which is being adjusted magically; its a wholly magical phenomenon to start with. And yes, nuclear decay, you can adjust the protons and turn iron into zinc. First, I don't really think that's at all the same thing, and second the culture of Roshar would not know enough about atomic structure to understand the idea. Just one man's opinion. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I think that it could be argued any chemical reaction is Transformation of a sort. Turning a goblet to blood is a little outside what I know of chemical reactions, but so is shooting sticky goo from fingertips. I think they are all things based on natural forces, but not so literal as this is fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly he/him Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Yeah, I get the impression Transformation is getting a bit more metaphysical - the force that drives change from one thing to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cad he/him Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I assume that Transformation is the same as nuclear fission or fusion. The atoms reconfigure from one substance to another. The Surgebinder doesn't need to understand molecular theory, they just have to will it to happen and use stormlight. It's the same as Lift being able to turn a surface "slick" without understanding the concepts of friction or a Windrunner using the gravity lashings without knowing the value of G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted January 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I assume that Transformation is the same as nuclear fission or fusion. The atoms reconfigure from one substance to another. The Surgebinder doesn't need to understand molecular theory, they just have to will it to happen and use stormlight. It's the same as Lift being able to turn a surface "slick" without understanding the concepts of friction or a Windrunner using the gravity lashings without knowing the value of G. But it's not about Surgebinding, since that's a relatively new thing. It is apparently commonly known among scholars of Roshar that there are ten fundamental forces that operate the laws of nature. Even though fission and fusion are possible, they're not something a people with Rosharan technology would notice. In short, outside of Surges and fabrials, there isn't a lot of otherwise-unexplained transformations occurring in the natural world which require a Surge to explain their existence. In Terry Pratchett's novel Hogfather, a central figure of belief is inhumed by the Assassin's Guild, and all the extra belief sloshing around causes theoretical mythic beings to pop into existence, like the Sock-Eater, and the oh God of Hangovers. At one point, the Dean tries to summon the "Give huge bags of money to the Dean fairy", but it fails, because there's not enough belief in such a being. He has not been mysteriously gaining huge bags of money that need to be explained by a myth. Just so, why would they have come up with the idea of a "transformation surge" without a lot of natural transformations happening around them which require explanation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_warko he/him Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Does that mean nine of these surges are kind of the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted January 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Does that mean nine of these surges are kind of the same? Um, sure? I mean, seven of them are. We don't know one Surge, and I'll admit "transportation" doesn't really seem to count either. We'd have to know a lot more about it before figuring out how it fits; does it simply refer to the fact that things go from place to place? Like migration? Or does it mean teleporting, in which case it'd be like Transformation, in that things don't frequently teleport and require an explanation, unless that's an aspect of life on Roshar so common no one has bothered mentioning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaa he/him Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) Sounds like an interesting thing to ask Brandon: Are there non-Invested things on Roshar that are affected by the Tranformation Surge even under normal circumstances (i.e. without the help of Soulcasting)? It'd be cool if, for example, Transformation happens naturally on a molecular or subatomic level there on Roshar. I know that chemical reactions IRL do not involve alchemy-like transformations, but perhaps that's how chemical reactions work in Cosmeric Realmatics. Edited January 31, 2014 by skaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted January 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 It'd be cool if, for example, Transformation happens naturally on a molecular or subatomic level there on Roshar. Even if, would Rosharan's know that? Mixing up eggs and flour and so on to get a cake... is that what they see as the "transformation surge" in nature? Simply any chemical change? I suppose it's possible. It's a fact of nature, it's something Rosharans would have noticed, and I don't think it's covered by the other Surges. Does anyone else want to weigh in on this idea? I think skaa's got a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cortez he/him Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Transformation is far more than any simple chemical change or even fission/fusion. You're changing things on the subatomic level, you're actually changing the elements themselves and not just a straight swap of one element into another but into complex structures. For example Shallan transforms a glass goblet (probably silicon) into blood; which is a complex chemical structure containing carbon, water (ie. hydrogen and oxygen) and a large number of other elements arranged into complex structures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I find 'division' to be the weirdest. Transportation is fine, you just transport things, I can imagine that. Transformation doesn't bother me either, because magic (not a good explanation, but it sounds like alchemy). But division? I mean you can crush things with either gravity or atmospheric pressure, how is division different? Or is it more like cell division, which I rather think will be growth surge. This is what confuses me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weebojello Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I've thought Transformation was rather natural given Cultivations influence. Cultivation is really creation, and what is transformation but creating something new from something old. No "new" matter is being created. Molecules of existing structures are being re-arranged to a consistent number of molecules in a new structure. So Division would be similar. Instead of re-arranging to completely new molecules, they are just broken down. It's the opposite, in one sense, of Transformation. A handy new chart at some point and seeing Radiants exploit the abilities more than we have seen will help clear this all up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomR Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) But it's not about Surgebinding, since that's a relatively new thing. It is apparently commonly known among scholars of Roshar that there are ten fundamental forces that operate the laws of nature. Even though fission and fusion are possible, they're not something a people with Rosharan technology would notice. In short, outside of Surges and fabrials, there isn't a lot of otherwise-unexplained transformations occurring in the natural world which require a Surge to explain their existence. I think that may be the wrong way to look at it. The Surges aren't really a new thing; the idea of ten fundamental forces is a description of a rather old thing. They apparently were defined based on the Heralds' and Radiants' abilities rather than the other way around, even if the modern society doesn't realize it. Plus, ideas of what might be "natural" may be a bit skewed in a world that's had Soulcasting for over 4500 years and when you have people who don't show a strong understanding of forces like gravity or pressure, either. Edited January 31, 2014 by TomR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) I've thought Transformation was rather natural given Cultivations influence. Cultivation is really creation, and what is transformation but creating something new from something old. No "new" matter is being created. Molecules of existing structures are being re-arranged to a consistent number of molecules in a new structure. So Division would be similar. Instead of re-arranging to completely new molecules, they are just broken down. It's the opposite, in one sense, of Transformation. A handy new chart at some point and seeing Radiants exploit the abilities more than we have seen will help clear this all up! You make a good point about Cultivation being very near to Transformation, but I would be careful with the creation bit. I think I remember a Brandon quote about Adonalsium being creation, but Cultivation being more of a "transition" rather than creation. Which is nearly identical to Tranformation. I'll try to find it, but it isn't Cultivation's goal to create, as I understand it. Edit: BRANDON SANDERSONPreservation, as a Shard, is about preserving life, people, and the like. Not about self. No more than Ruin is about destroying self, orCultivation is about growing herself. Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. It looks like Cultivation is about "growing" more than anything. Taking things that exist and enhancing them. Just like Ruin took things that exist and deteriorated them. Edited January 31, 2014 by Bloodfalcon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Another distinction that soulcasting has over the other surges is that you need a specific gem to provide for specific classes of matter change. The other surges are ambiguous as to whether you use a diamond, an emerald, or a topaz. Granted, this may have been designed by Brandon as a means to check the power of soulcasting. But, I expect that he designed an in-world explanation for such a conspicuous difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted January 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Interesting ideas, everyone. I'm not certain I'm sold on all of them. When one cultivates in real life, the way we use the word on earth, one encourages certain aspects and discourages others in an attempt to shape the future of the thing towards a certain goal. Like with the acorn and the oak, I really see this as more of a function of Growth than Transformation. It's entirely possible that the scientific concept of "ten fundamental forces" is based on the Surges, not vice-versa, but I'm not sure I buy that. It's certainly plausible, the way religion colors everything in Alethkar, up to and including scientific reason. I could easily be wrong; I suppose I've got nothing more than my gut saying it's not so. I suppose time will prove one of us right (or neither!) Transformation is far more than any simple chemical change or even fission/fusion. I agree, though that wasn't precisely my point. I know that Soulcasting is far more than a chemical change, just as a Basic Lashing is far more than "matter attracting matter". Surgebinding takes the natural and expands it to the fantastical. So the Surge of Growth takes seeds, which had the potential to grow into plants on their own, and forces them to grow at an impossibly accelerated rate. The Surge of Illumination causes light, which is a perfectly natural thing, to be generated from places and in colors it has no legitimate reason to generate from. Just so. Normal transformation might be "the chemical mix of eggs salt baking powder blah blah blah and boom you've got a cake". Knock that up a notch with stormlight, and you've got, "a crystal goblet is subatomically altered into a similar mass of blood". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts