The origin of the surges

[Raistlin]

Hi, I'm new in the forum so I apologize in advance if this topic was already discussed before.

I've just finished reading WOR and came across Tor.com reread where someone mentioned Jasnah's questionable morality (the assassins she employed, the guys in the alley and maybe some other people she killed that I don't remember).

With Shallan's own kill count, and the lack of general remorse, that puts both of them in odds with Dalinar and Kaladin.

I assumed that the KR all share the same strict moral code and that their powers all come from Honor but Jasnah and Shallan don't seem to follow that code and yet have their own abilities.

 

My new theory, until proven otherwise, is that not all KR orders get their abilities from Honor but from a different source as well, in this case- Cultivation.

Yes, all powers come from the spern who are pieces of Honor (even though I only remember them being pieces of GOD without naming Honor specifically) but the type of spern and the bond they form with humans can vary between the two.

It also matches the male characterization of Honor (Dallinar and Kaladin) vs. the female Cultivation (Jasnash and Shallan).

I'll leave out, for the time being, the implications on the nature of female morality that might come with this theory.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this

Edited February 20, 2017 by Raistlin
mispelling

[Spoolofwhool]

Honor is a variable concept. The different orders of the Knight Radiants have follow different codes of honor. 

Edgedancer spoilers

Spoiler

You see this as well with Skybreakers and Windrunners. Windrunners believe in doing the right thing, protecting those who need protection. On the other hand, Skybreakers are about doing what is lawful, even if other's might consider it wrong, like executing a street weaif. 

 

9 minutes ago, Raistlin said:

Yes, all powers come from the spern who are pieces of Honor (even though I only remember them being pieces of GOD without naming Honor specifically) but the type of spern and the bond they form with humans can vary between the two.

The Nahel Bond spren for the most part are all of Honor and Cultivation. Some might be only of one though.

Quote

QUESTION

A question related to that. There’s an idea going around that all the spren that can Nahel Bond, all Knight Radiant spren are called honorspren, and then Nohadon talks specifically about honorspren. Is that the case? You know, is it just the Windrunner spren, or is it all the spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I’m going to deal with this in the next book. So I’ll just go ahead and let it be a literal RAFO. It is coming.

(interruption, leading Brandon to lose his train of thought)

So what we are dealing with here is that all Spren are indeed all pieces of the one who has gone, so those spren are all- except the Windrunner spren, the spren like Syl, have certain umm.

ZAS

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren."

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

[Source]

 

Looking at the actual origin of the surges, don't forget that surges aren't the power. The power is surgebinding, the ability to manipulate these underlying mechanics. Furthermore, the surges technically aren't anything special. They're mainly considered special on Roshar because of surgebinding manipulating these ten specific cosmere mechanics, but the same mechanics exist everywhere in the Cosmere. So the origin of the surges is because of the power to surgebind, and that is from a shard investing into Roshar. Which one I won't delve into because it's not that relevant. 

[Weltall]

As noted, all Radiants do not share the same code, they share only the single Ideal: Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination. After that, any given Order can have Ideals that don't play nicely with those of any other Order. Windrunners and Skybreakers are an obvious example and we also know that the Windrunners and Lightweavers (or at least their spren) had issues with one another because of the latter's flexible approach to the truth. There's nothing inherently contradictory in what we see, as Shallan doesn't swear additional Ideals and we have no idea what the Elsecaller oaths are at this point. Though if a Skybreaker had been in that alley with Jasnah and Shallan, odds are they'd have done the exact same thing, they'd just have done it with a Shardblade instead of Surgebinding.

We also have Word of Brandon that while some Orders wouldn't approve of what Adolin did at the end of WoR, others would be totally cool with it. The 'honor' in this case comes from keeping the oaths you specifically swear, not one single overriding view. I wouldn't get too hung up on the 'male/female morality' thing; we know from Dalinar's visions that the Windrunners and Stonewards had male and female members and the in-universe Words of Radiance mentions a male Lightweaver. And then you've got the Dustbringers.

[Raistlin]

Thanks for putting things in order for me, though I'll confess that I'm a bit disappointed since I thought myself very clever for a moment...

 

On 2/20/2017 at 7:52 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

Honor is a variable concept. The different orders of the Knight Radiants have follow different codes of honor.

 

On 2/20/2017 at 9:44 PM, Weltall said:

As noted, all Radiants do not share the same code, they share only the single Ideal: Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination. After that, any given Order can have Ideals that don't play nicely with those of any other Order.

We also have Word of Brandon that while some Orders wouldn't approve of what Adolin did at the end of WoR, others would be totally cool with it. The 'honor' in this case comes from keeping the oaths you specifically swear, not one single overriding view.

That's what confused me in the first place. Since Dallinar and Kaladin follow a similar code and Jasnah and Shalan a different (similar) one, I figured that it might be because the "source" that's responsible for their specific surges is different. 
Maybe all Honor spern require similar morality in their bonded humans? and Cultivation spern need a different one?
 

On 2/20/2017 at 7:52 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

The Nahel Bond spren for the most part are all of Honor and Cultivation. Some might be only of one though.

Looking at the actual origin of the surges, don't forget that surges aren't the power. The power is surgebinding, the ability to manipulate these underlying mechanics. Furthermore, the surges technically aren't anything special. They're mainly considered special on Roshar because of surgebinding manipulating these ten specific cosmere mechanics, but the same mechanics exist everywhere in the Cosmere. So the origin of the surges is because of the power to surgebind, and that is from a shard investing into Roshar. Which one I won't delve into because it's not that relevant. 

I thought that Roshar had 3 shards when Honor and Cultivation are 2 of them ?

I actually imagined something like 5 orders with spern bonds of Honor and 5 of Cultivation, all working together for a greater purpose .
Like people working in the same company (hence the same first order) but in different departments and under different management.

The male/female comparisons came partially from that and partially from the actual characters.

About Adolin- was it ever mentioned that he's a KR (present or future)?

[Spoolofwhool]

Personally I think that surgebinding is only of Honor, not of Cultivation. 

I see no reason to think that gender is somehow important. I believe it has been presented in Edgedancer that the windrunners and stonewards who abandoned their shards were made up of men and women. Furthermore, Edgedancer spoilers:

Spoiler

We meet a female Truthwatcher, in contrast to the two males ones we have previously.

While I agree with the analogy that orders of the KR are suppose to work together, each one filling a small part in the workings of an organization to save anyone, I don't think strict duality of half the orders are of Honor and the other half are of Cultivation. I think it's more a range, because of the spren who cause them. All the nahel bond spren, or most, are made up of a mixture of Honor and Cultivation investiture, and this likely shows in their approach in oaths. Syl for example sees herself as an honorspren, likely nearly all Honor, and this reflects in the Windrunner ideals of keeping your oaths. 

Anyhow, to break down everything, the idea that the KR get their powers from Honor and Cultivation is correct, as their power is filtered through a mixture of Honor and Cultivation's power, presumably a spren, in order to allow them to surgebind. However, I disagree with the idea that it is a strict duality. At the same time, I don't think surgebinding arose from the mixing of Honor and Cultivation's power, but rather just the power of Honor.

[skaa]

2 hours ago, Raistlin said:

... though I'll confess that I'm a bit disappointed since I thought myself very clever for a moment...

Haha, that happens a lot here so don't worry. It takes a crazy amount of dedication to keep up with all the Words of Brandon ("WoBs") out there. But I say you should still be proud of the insights you gathered by yourself, even if they are already known to us.

3 hours ago, Raistlin said:

I thought that Roshar had 3 shards when Honor and Cultivation are 2 of them ?

Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar before Odium did. As per the WoB @Spoolofwhool quoted above, the spren of the Knights Radiant are either of Honor and Cultivation (or a mix), but Odium also has his own spren.

It makes sense that Honor and Cultivation would cooperate on a magic system, as their Vessels were lovers. But as you can see, there's still debate as to whether the Surgebinding of the Knights Radiant is the magic system of Honor (with Cultivation only contributing her spren for use in her lover's system) or a sort of hybrid magic system of both Shards. Yes, that's the kind of stuff debated on here.

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Raistlin said:

About Adolin- was it ever mentioned that he's a KR (present or future)?

This is one major RAFO.