Hacking Breaths

[Steelheart]

This might have been asked before, but could a Fullborn Compound into a Nicrosilmind ( or do it while storing Identity, then give it to a Nalthian), then convert that Investiture to Breaths in order to attain the Tenth Heightening?

[+Extesian he/him]

55 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

This might have been asked before, but could a Fullborn Compound into a Nicrosilmind ( or do it while storing Identity, then give it to a Nalthian), then convert that Investiture to Breaths in order to attain the Tenth Heightening?

A couple of relevant WoBs

Quote

QUESTION

Could feruchemical Nicrosil be used to store other invested abilities, such as a Returned breath or the abilities of the Knights Radiant?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, that's possible

Quote

NECARION

Could a double-nicrosil Twinborn compound Breath or Stormlight?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uh, you’re getting a RAFO card on _that_. You’re getting SUCH a RAFO card on that!

Spoiler

s

QUESTION

Can you mix a form of magic with a source of investiture ? Vasher uses stormlight replacing Breath or that requires (word I don't understand) like Hemalurgy or something like that ?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Most of them required (again the word I don't understand). Some of them are little bit easier than others. It's depends on really what you need. For istance, white sand can be charged in the presence of any Investiture right? But it's not really using the magic, is just charging it with other Investiture but you know it would be very easy for istance to use Breath to fuel...Windrunning right? Because the oath and the bond and things like that make it pretty easy. However fueling Allomancy with something else is going to be a lot harder. So it really depends on the magic. It's the sort of thing that there will be lots of science in the books dedicated to making happen in the future and you will find some of the process these work easiser than other ones.

My take generally is that you can use other types of investiture to fuel the magic system you already have access to and you can store something like Breath if you already have it. I'm not convinced that Breath applies in the same way though, being able to literally convert to it so you get additional heightenings. You can prevent yourself losing heightenings through use of something that costs breath, like a Returned prolonging their life or using Nightblood. But I suspect you can't actually gain Breaths by using other investiture.

[Spoolofwhool]

I don't see how a random Nalthian would be able to somehow remove the investiture from a nicrosilmind and turn it into breath. They're different types of investiture with different properties.

Also, I don't think you can store breath in a nicrosilmind to compound that either.

[+Extesian he/him]

18 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't see how a random Nalthian would be able to somehow remove the investiture from a nicrosilmind and turn it into breath. They're different types of investiture with different properties.

Also, I don't think you can store breath in a nicrosilmind to compound that either.

Agreed on the random Nalthian point, you need to have innate investiture capable of tapping metalminds. But the first WoB I posted does seem to confirm that you can storebreath in a nicrosilmind. Whether you can compound it who knows, but I suspect if you're a nicrosil allomancer and you get a nicrosilmind filled with Breath, you should be able to burn it. Problem is you then couldn't keep filling another one with Breath, hence you can't actually compound.

[Spoolofwhool]

47 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Agreed on the random Nalthian point, you need to have innate investiture capable of tapping metalminds. But the first WoB I posted does seem to confirm that you can storebreath in a nicrosilmind. Whether you can compound it who knows, but I suspect if you're a nicrosil allomancer and you get a nicrosilmind filled with Breath, you should be able to burn it. Problem is you then couldn't keep filling another one with Breath, hence you can't actually compound.

No it doesn't.  It just confirms that you can store what we've already seen stored in nicrosilminds: the ability to use manifestations of investiture, pieces of one's spiritweb, and innate investiture. I haven't seen anything which gives any reason to believe that you can store kinetic investiture or any innate investiture outside of the ability to use magic. 

[+Extesian he/him]

8 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

No it doesn't.  It just confirms that you can store what we've already seen stored in nicrosilminds: the ability to use manifestations of investiture, pieces of one's spiritweb, and innate investiture. I haven't seen anything which gives any reason to believe that you can store kinetic investiture or any innate investiture outside of the ability to use magic. 

Aah so you're saying it can store purely the innate investiture required to access the magic system but not the investiture that comes from it? That makes sense. There is still the RAFO (rather than outright no) on the specific question on compounding breath, so it could be possible, but I think I get the difference.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

Aah so you're saying it can store purely the innate investiture required to access the magic system but not the investiture that comes from it? That makes sense. There is still the RAFO (rather than outright no) on the specific question on compounding breath, so it could be possible, but I think I get the difference.

Yeah.  Also, if it can store both innate investiture plus breath, then there wouldn't be much to justify it being able to store a host of other types of investiture, which would make it stupidly powerful, probably encroaching on the domains of other feruchemical powers. Overall, wouldn't make that much sense.

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Yeah.  Also, if it can store both innate investiture plus breath, then there wouldn't be much to justify it being able to store a host of other types of investiture, which would make it stupidly powerful, probably encroaching on the domains of other feruchemical powers. Overall, wouldn't make that much sense.

I think Breath is Innate Investiture, so storing it would make perfect sense. (And Divine Breath definitely can be, since the first WoB specifically mentions "a Returned breath").

[Spoolofwhool]

18 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think Breath is Innate Investiture, so storing it would make perfect sense. (And Divine Breath definitely can be, since the first WoB specifically mentions "a Returned breath").

Maybe. Except Breath isn't the ability to use a manifestation of investiture which is my belief as to the limit of what nicrosil can store as the ability to store any part of the innate investiture would basically make it encompass most, if not all, of the other feruchemical powers, which would be extremely illogical. Additionally, it doesn't say it can store it Returned Breath, it seems to be more referring to specific abilities associated with it. Really, the fact that Returned Breath was added as an example to the question really doesn't make much sense so I'm not putting much stock in it. In any case, Returned Breath has huge differences compared to regular breath, so I don't think one is that much of a case for another.

[cometaryorbit]

9 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Maybe. Except Breath isn't the ability to use a manifestation of investiture

Well... I think it's both. I think that the distinction between the innate Investiture that lets you use magic and the other (kinetic?) Investiture that's used in magic doesn't exist in Awakening. According to the most recent (and most detailed) WoB on the topic, you don't need anything extra to use Breath.

I also don't see any reason to think Feruchemical Nicrosil is that limited -- Mistborn third trilogy is going to be a world-crossing series after all. I think you could theoretically store at least any Innate Investiture and maybe any Investiture you are currently holding, but if you really stored all your innate Investiture you'd die or become non-intelligent or something.

17 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

the ability to store any part of the innate investiture would basically make it encompass most, if not all, of the other feruchemical powers, which would be extremely illogical

I don't think that's anything like confirmed - that would only be true if the 'spiritweb is made of investiture' theory is correct, which I don't think it is, at least not in anything more than the sense that all matter on Scadrial is 'made of investiture' -- that is, converted from Investiture rather than currently being Investiture,

IMO, Connection, Identity, and (innate) Investiture are distinct components of the spiritweb. (And maybe luck too, because that's a Feruchemical Spiritual attribute, but no data on that one yet.)

[+Extesian he/him]

4 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well... I think it's both. I think that the distinction between the innate Investiture that lets you use magic and the other (kinetic?) Investiture that's used in magic doesn't exist in Awakening. According to the most recent (and most detailed) WoB on the topic, you don't need anything extra to use Breath.

Yeah that's been my discomfort Ruth this demarcation. On scadrial innate investiture comes from heredity and kinetic is from metal. On Roshar innate comes from nahel bond and kinetic from Stormlight. But on Nalthis innate comes from Breath and kinetic is Breath. If you're Nalthian and not a drab, you can awaken (provided you know how and have the right intent). You use the same breath that gives you innate investiture to power the awakening. And yes we know that a non-Nalthian who gets Breath, because it's keyed to their identity, can then awaken.

So i think i accept the line between innate and kinetic for nicrosil (I'm not 100% sure but accept it for now) but I don't believe it necessarily applies to Breath. I guess the limit could be that you can store Breath, but not Breaths (ie only the basic one not say 1000 breaths).

[Spoolofwhool]

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well... I think it's both. I think that the distinction between the innate Investiture that lets you use magic and the other (kinetic?) Investiture that's used in magic doesn't exist in Awakening. According to the most recent (and most detailed) WoB on the topic, you don't need anything extra to use Breath.

That still doesn't mean it's granting the ability. It could just be that awakening is a Cosmere-wide power like hemalurgy. However, I will admit that the fact that holding more breath does grant innate knowledge about awakening makes it more linked. In any case, I'll agree that it is fairly definitely in part innate as it does do weird things directly to the soul be being held, such as Clod being more sentient than normal lifeless because Arsteel had a significant number of breaths when he died.

14 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

IMO, Connection, Identity, and (innate) Investiture are distinct components of the spiritweb. (And maybe luck too, because that's a Feruchemical Spiritual attribute, but no data on that one yet.)

Connection is bound through your innate investiture so I'm pretty sure if you could store any innate investiture you could start messing with your spiritual connections. A direct example being that allomancers have a greater innate investiture than normal, and this is due to their increased connection to Preservation. So there is a definite connection, so I don't think they can be treated as distinct. 

[Steelheart]

I got the idea from a question (pretty sure it was RAFOd) asking about the mechanics of how a Fullborn would change from one Investiture to another (eg. Compound Nicrosil, then convert it to A-Pewter). From the way it was worded, it seemed a given that was how it could be used. It may be it only works within Scadrian Investiture, but I believe it has more potential. 

[Yata he/him]

14 minutes ago, Steelheart said:

I got the idea from a question (pretty sure it was RAFOd) asking about the mechanics of how a Fullborn would change from one Investiture to another (eg. Compound Nicrosil, then convert it to A-Pewter). From the way it was worded, it seemed a given that was how it could be used. It may be it only works within Scadrian Investiture, but I believe it has more potential. 

The problem here, is that as far as we know change Preservation's Power into Breath is turning Preservation's Investiture into Endowment's Investiture. A feat probably not even the Shards could manage to complete.

[Steelheart]

1 minute ago, Yata said:

The problem here, is that as far as we know change Preservation's Power into Breath is turning Preservation's Investiture into Endowment's Investiture. A feat probably not even the Shards could manage to complete.

 

Unless it converts it on a Spiritual level, in which case all Investiture is the same (all types come from Adonalsium) 

[Yata he/him]

20 hours ago, Steelheart said:

Unless it converts it on a Spiritual level, in which case all Investiture is the same (all types come from Adonalsium) 

Except you have "carry it" below the Spiritual Realm, where the difference matters...Probably in the Spiritual Realm actually all Investiture is the same, but Investiture isn't only Spiritual, it extends beyond the Spiritual Realm.

If you could change the "other parts" You could take Ruin and turn it into Preservation (The whole Shards not bit of powers)....Odium will not leave the defeated shard, instead He would turn the loser's power into more than his own.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Yata

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Steelheart said:

I got the idea from a question (pretty sure it was RAFOd) asking about the mechanics of how a Fullborn would change from one Investiture to another (eg. Compound Nicrosil, then convert it to A-Pewter). From the way it was worded, it seemed a given that was how it could be used. It may be it only works within Scadrian Investiture, but I believe it has more potential. 

It doesn't seem to be that you can turn nicrosil charge to A-pewter investiture. I don't see it creating kinetic investiture. 

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/17/2017 at 9:23 AM, Yata said:

The problem here, is that as far as we know change Preservation's Power into Breath is turning Preservation's Investiture into Endowment's Investiture. A feat probably not even the Shards could manage to complete.

I don't think we know enough about the nature of Investiture to know if it works that way or not.

I mean, Compounding is fueling Feruchemy (Preservation plus Ruin) with pure Preservation. I think it's at least implied that other magic system combinations are possible - and at the very least Vasher and apparently Nightblood, who are both BioChromatic Entities and thus 'of' Endowment, can be fueled by Stormlight.

It's therefore not clear to me that "raw" Investiture necessarily has different properties based on the Shard it's "of". Something makes Breath different from Stormlight different from the Mists of Scadrial, but it could be the interaction with the Shardworld rather than the Shard itself. Or it could be some third thing we don't know yet -- the difference between Breath and Stormlight could be a matter of Identity and Connection for example.

If you could "bind" Stormlight so it fully acted like Breath - stuck to you rather than dissipating, granted Heightenings (in sufficient quantity), and could be used for Awakening - I don't think that would diminish Honor/Cultivation and increase Endowment. The power would still be 'connected' the way a Splinter of a live Shard is.

 

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/16/2017 at 10:37 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

A direct example being that allomancers have a greater innate investiture than normal, and this is due to their increased connection to Preservation.

I'm not sure the cause and effect necessarily work that way. The WOB about persisting in the Cognitive Realm after death suggests using the ability makes you more Connected and last longer. So it might be that allomancers start out with more innate investiture from Preservation, and develop greater Connection to Preservation through using Allomancy -- a pre-Snapped person with Allomantic potential might not have any more Connection to Preservation than anyone else.

In that case, there'd still be a link... but I think Connections are always developed in the course of life, so not so close a link that Feruchemically altering one would automatically alter the other. (And Feruchemy is very specific about things like that anyway - using Feruchemical iron to become 500x denser doesn't make you bulletproof, even though it probably ought to by normal physics.)

[Spoolofwhool]

@cometaryorbit I see. Personally though, I think the entire spiritweb is what is considered innate investiture, but I'll admit that we don't really have any information to say either way. 

Which WoB are you referencing?

[Yata he/him]

9 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Which WoB are you referencing?

I think the Wob is this:

Quote

BLIGHTSONG

So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was invested, but because he had the ability to become invested?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Over time using the magic will invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either (He cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought) so I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the mistborn are as invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the spirit web. Investing the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the spiritual realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them (like soulcasting or forgery) is harder.

BLIGHTSONG

Would they be harder (kek) with more Stormlight or Metals burning?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, yes. That would increase the difficulty ratio. For instance, wearing shard plate is gonna be a great barrier, right, and things like that so yea. The problem is like, invested is the wrong term for that, their spirit web is connected in different ways. (I deem this "Spirit Web Magical Connectivity Diversity, or SWMCD".