can a splinter have a vessel

[bdoble97]

If a shard can have a vessel and a splinter is a part of a Shard can a splinter have a vessel in a lesser form. 

[Argent he/him]

I think the fundamental difference between a Shard and a Splinter (besides the obvious, which is their relative power levels) is that Splinters are actually sapient. One of the reasons Shards can be taken up by living creatures is because investiture (naturally) seeks to gain sapience, and - presumably - a lot of investiture really wants to gain sapience. Splinters, however, already have a mind of their own, they don't "want" to be picked up. In fact, I think they can't, but that might be just me.

[bdoble97]

45 minutes ago, Argent said:

I think the fundamental difference between a Shard and a Splinter (besides the obvious, which is their relative power levels) is that Splinters are actually sapient. One of the reasons Shards can be taken up by living creatures is because investiture (naturally) seeks to gain sapience, and - presumably - a lot of investiture really wants to gain sapience. Splinters, however, already have a mind of their own, they don't "want" to be picked up. In fact, I think they can't, but that might be just me.

Ok so a spren is a splinter right? And if so why can Lift hold onto her spren when climbing up walls when he's a vine. 

[Yata he/him]

8 minutes ago, bdoble97 said:

Ok so a spren is a splinter right? And if so why can Lift hold onto her spren when climbing up walls when he's a vine. 

Because Lift is more in the Cognitive Realm than standard Humans and may interact with it more.

Notice it's not an unique case, you see all the time objects interacting with other Realms, The Shardblades for example cut the Soul 

[bdoble97]

1 minute ago, Yata said:

Because Lift is more in the Cognitive Realm than standard Humans and may interact with it more.

Notice it's not an unique case, you see all the time objects interacting with other Realms, The Shardblades for example cut the Soul 

Good point. The Shardblades are the spren as a weapon so that further proof that the splinters/spren can be touched and held. I guess a splinters vessel could be the kight radiant that this spren bonds with in a way

[Yata he/him]

48 minutes ago, bdoble97 said:

Good point. The Shardblades are the spren as a weapon so that further proof that the splinters/spren can be touched and held. I guess a splinters vessel could be the kight radiant that this spren bonds with in a way

It's all a matter of how much a being is in relation to the realms (i like to see the realms as different floors and every being as an elevator between the three floors) . To say if you go on the Cognitive Realm, you may punch a spren (and a Spren may beat you of course)

If the Spren extends itself fully in the Physical realm he may interact with regular matter (you may hold a Shardblade after all).

The same thing happens with Lift, She is deeply in the Cognitive than any other physical being we saw...This allow her to touch cognitive entities (I just imaginate Lift tring to hug the Stormfather...) and it's probably the reason of her other weirdnesses

Edited February 16, 2017 by Yata

[bdoble97]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

It's all a matter of how much a being is in relation to the realms (i like to see the realms as different floors and every being as an elevator between the three floors) . To say if you go on the Cognitive Realm, you may punch a spren (and a Spren may beat you of course)

If the Spren extends itself fully in the Physical realm he may interact with regular matter (you may hold a Shardblade after all).

The same thing happens with Lift, She is deeply in the Cognitive than any other physical being we saw...This allow her to touch cognitive entities (I just imaginate Lift tring to hug the Stormfather...) and it's probably the reason of her other weirdnesses

This is why  love asking questions on this website you get such indepth answers. Great points

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Argent said:

I think the fundamental difference between a Shard and a Splinter (besides the obvious, which is their relative power levels) is that Splinters are actually sapient. One of the reasons Shards can be taken up by living creatures is because investiture (naturally) seeks to gain sapience, and - presumably - a lot of investiture really wants to gain sapience. Splinters, however, already have a mind of their own, they don't "want" to be picked up. In fact, I think they can't, but that might be just me.

Investiture wants to be sentient, not necessarily sapient as far as I'm aware. Splinters have at least the sentient threshold.

[Yata he/him]

27 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Investiture wants to be sentient, not necessarily sapient as far as I'm aware. Splinters have at least the sentient threshold.

I don't know if it is relevant but acutually "the Power of Creation want to be used" and it need a mind to direct itself...so if a true mind isn't avaliable it try to develop one of its own.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Yata

[Spoolofwhool]

17 minutes ago, Yata said:

I don't know if it is relevant but acutually "the Power of Creation want to be used" and it need a mind to direct itself...so if a true mind isn't avaliable it try to develop one of its own.

Well yes. Sentience should be enough for the power to be used which is why it is developed. My point is that it might not need to develop after reach some levels of sentience to be properly sapient.

[Argent he/him]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Investiture wants to be sentient, not necessarily sapient as far as I'm aware. Splinters have at least the sentient threshold.

I've always been bad at choosing the correct term...

[skaa he/him]

The Divine Breaths are Splinters, right? Can't we consider the Returned to be "Vessels" of sorts for Divine Breaths? 

[Argent he/him]

21 minutes ago, skaa said:

The Divine Breaths are Splinters, right? Can't we consider the Returned to be "Vessels" of sorts for Divine Breaths? 

I wouldn't. The Divine Breath serves as glue for the Returned's cognitive shadow so it sticks to the body. This is different from how Shards work, I think, because in the latter case the Vessel takes on the power but doesn't use it to use it keep themselves together in any way. Plus, they can use the power, I'd wager up to all of it, without giving up their life.

[skaa he/him]

4 hours ago, Argent said:

I wouldn't. The Divine Breath serves as glue for the Returned's cognitive shadow so it sticks to the body. This is different from how Shards work, I think, because in the latter case the Vessel takes on the power but doesn't use it to use it keep themselves together in any way. Plus, they can use the power, I'd wager up to all of it, without giving up their life.

I guess it would depend on the definition of "Vessel". Since Brandon has used the term for holders of Shards, one could I suppose choose to say it cannot apply to Returned. But the Returned do in fact hold the Divine Breaths, which contradicts what you said:

On 2/16/2017 at 10:35 PM, Argent said:

Splinters, however, already have a mind of their own, they don't "want" to be picked up. In fact, I think they can't, but that might be just me.

Of course, "holding" and "pick up" are vague in this context. You can, if you wish, define them such that Divine Breaths are not "held". But outside such ad hoc definitions and requirements (e.g. your ad hoc requirement that they don't use it to keep themselves together), I would not object to someone calling a Returned a sort of vessel of his Divine Breath, loosely speaking, at least until Brandon clarifies the issue.

My point is that you're trying to make the definition of "Vessel" stricter than what Brandon has given us. I say there's room for creative use of it. At some point, someone could ask Brandon about his preferred general term for beings like Returned that have Splinters. But right now I think "Vessel" can be used.

Edited February 20, 2017 by skaa

[Argent he/him]

On the contrary, I am using the term exactly as it is presented to us - the mortal bearer of a Shard. It's the only context we have, and I am unwilling to extend the definition without better evidence. Everything I listed previous is in addition to the fact that the only confirmed use of the term is around Shards. At the end of the day it's all opinions anyway.

But we can get more technical. I didn't want to go there initially in part because it would require additional speculation - some of which I am comfortable with, but not all. Let's look into the fuzzy terms I've been using. What happens when a Vessel (technically that person is about to become a Vessel, but that's a technicality we can ignore) picks up a Shard? Well, we don't have a great many examples of that, but both Vin and Sazed lose their physical bodies but retain their minds. Their awareness is transferred to the Cognitive realm, where they seem to continue existing without much change - they, or at least Vin, quickly learn how to navigate the Cognitive, but except for this expanded awareness, their minds don't seem to be changed all that much. Certainly not to the dramatic level you would expect from an Ascension. The Spiritual realm, on the other hand, is a much better candidate for the power of the Shard to act in. We already know that investiture is primary Spiritual, and investiture used in the Physical realm makes its way back to the Spiritual where it, once again, becomes a part of the Shard it came from. In addition to this, powers in general come from the Spiritual, so Vin's and Sazed's ability to influence the physical world must be somehow encoded in their now modified sDNA. All this being said, it sounds to me like the Shard, which is mostly pure investiture in the first place, melds with the Vessel's Spiritweb, granting them access to incredible power. 

Compare that with what happens to the Returned. Their physical body dies, but their mind's journey from the Cognitive to the Beyond is interrupted by Endowment who offers them the choice to come back (not unlike what Harmony does with Wax, actually). Upon choosing to Return, Endowment takes a chunk of her power, what is about to become a Divine Breath, and uses it to somehow stick the mind back in the body. The sDNA of the person does not appear to be (significantly) changed. Yes, their body changes, but that's at least partially a cognitive effect, as the new form they take reflects society's perception of perfection. But they don't get access to new abilities, they don't acquire vast stores of knowledge. The only interesting thing they can do is give up their Divine Breath, and that's already something every Nalthian can do! Yes, theirs has restorative powers, but it is also a lot more potent than a regular Breath, it holds a lot more investiture. In fact, even its healing powers might be not all that special, as they sound to me very similar to the natural healing Stormlight provides, just on a much bigger scale (which is appropriate, given the scale difference). 

So. Yes, this is an opinion thread, and yes, neither one of us - or anyone here really - has the right answer. But I am not making up arguments to fit my opinion, I have a - what I perceive as - very good reason to be reluctant to call the Returned Vessels in the same way Sazed is a Vessel. Maybe my original phrasing was less than precise, and if so I will admit it as a problem, but I hope I've shown that I've done more thinking about this than I initially displayed. It's just less... user friendly. 

[skaa he/him]

12 hours ago, Argent said:

On the contrary, I am using the term exactly as it is presented to us - the mortal bearer of a Shard. It's the only context we have...

Nope. The term Vessel is also used on Nalthis in the context of the Iridescent Tones to refer to the God King's wife, presumably for her ostensible role in bearing the next God King. So you see, just because a term was used in one context doesn't mean it can't be used in others.

Anyway, I only mentioned the Returned because I was surprised nobody has brought them up as an example of beings that bear Splinters. I thought it would be nice to jog people's memories, because speculation is best done with all the relevant facts at hand.

To be honest, Argent, I only remembered about Siri being called a Vessel when I saw your latest reply. If I had been able to bring it up earlier, perhaps we could have understood each other better. Sorry.

Edit: To the downvoter, please state your disagreement and contribute to our discussion here.

Edited February 20, 2017 by skaa

[Argent he/him]

But the contexts are obviously different! Siri is being called Vessel because of the belief that she is to be the vessel of the God King's child, there is nothing about Shards and Splinters in this. Arguing that it's related is like arguing that the shards of a broken windshield are worth talking about when discussing the Shards of Adonalsium. 

It's the same word, doesn't mean it's the same term.

[skaa he/him]

53 minutes ago, Argent said:

But the contexts are obviously different! Siri is being called Vessel because of the belief that she is to be the vessel of the God King's child, there is nothing about Shards and Splinters in this. Arguing that it's related is like arguing that the shards of a broken windshield are worth talking about when discussing the Shards of Adonalsium.

Actually that was just a reply to your statement that "It's the only context we have" for "Vessel", because we in fact have another context for it.

But okay, you feel that the term should have a narrow definition, and that's fine. I, seeing that we don't have a precise definition yet (and seeing that "Vessel" has been recycled previously anyway), feel that we could expand it a bit.

Since we can't seem to see eye to eye on the matter, I'll let it rest here. I'm still miffed that whoever downvoted me didn't bother to reply, but I guess I'll just have to accept that.

Edited February 20, 2017 by skaa

[Weltall]

In a similar issue of 'same word, not same term' we have Shardblades, Shardplate and the Dawnshards (whatever those are) on Roshar. Yes, the first one at least is technically a very tiny splinter of a Shard but that doesn't mean it is a Shard or that the person taking one up is a Vessel, Applies whether you're talking about dead blades or those formed from a Nahel Bond; the latter aren't Vessels any more than anyone else in the Cosmere with access to a local magic system is one.

[skaa he/him]

21 minutes ago, Weltall said:

In a similar issue of 'same word, not same term' we have Shardblades, Shardplate and the Dawnshards (whatever those are) on Roshar. Yes, the first one at least is technically a very tiny splinter of a Shard but that doesn't mean it is a Shard or that the person taking one up is a Vessel, Applies whether you're talking about dead blades or those formed from a Nahel Bond; the latter aren't Vessels any more than anyone else in the Cosmere with access to a local magic system is one.

Well, yes, but a Returned at the very least is a "vessel" (in the regular English sense) of a part of a Shard, which makes them analogous to the holders of the Shards of Adonalsium, who are vessels of said Shards. A pregnant woman can also be said to be a vessel of her child in a literal sense, justifying somewhat the Hallandren's symbolic title for the God King's wife (though we know the God King's wife isn't always the mother of the next God King).

Rosharan Shardbearers on the other hand... not so much.

In both the cases of Shardic Vessels and Iridescent Tones Vessels, the Vessel contains something considered divine. The Returned also contain something considered divine: a Splinter of a Shard. I'm not saying that this should be the definition of Vessel, and maybe one could say that the definition is too broad, but it's just something I'm putting out here as a suggestion.

I dunno, guys, you seem to have a very strong objection to my simple answer to the OP's question, enough that someone would downvote me for it, and I just don't see why.

Edited February 20, 2017 by skaa

[Spoolofwhool]

58 minutes ago, skaa said:

Actually that was just a reply to your statement that "It's the only context we have" for "Vessel", because we in fact have another context for it.

But okay, you feel that the term should have a narrow definition, and that's fine. I, seeing that we don't have a precise definition yet (and seeing that "Vessel" has been recycled previously anyway), feel that we could expand it a bit.

Since we can't seem to see eye to eye on the matter, I'll let it rest here. I'm still miffed that whoever downvoted me didn't bother to reply, but I guess I'll just have to accept that.

In the context of referring to shards and splinters it was the only context. Don't introduce a term from a whole different context just to falsely prove someone wrong; it's poor manners. The downvote wasn't because you have a different point of view.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[skaa he/him]

24 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Don't introduce a term from a whole different context just to falsely prove someone wrong; it's poor manners. The downvote wasn't because you have a different point of view.

I fear there has been a misunderstanding. Hmmm... Perhaps I should word things differently:

I am speculating that Brandon chose the word "vessel" to refer to the holders of Shards for the same deliberate reason that he used that word in Siri's case. I am speculating that the "Vessel" in both contexts are, in fact, the same term.

In my post before this I attempted to show how they could be the same term. Both contexts show beings that contain ("is a vessel of") something considered divine.

I'm not trying to force this definition onto you guys. Again, this is just speculation. I'm just asking you to consider it.

I apologize for not clarifying my thought process earlier. It did not occur to me that the similarity of the contexts was not apparent to others.

Edited February 20, 2017 by skaa

[Spoolofwhool]

7 minutes ago, skaa said:

I fear there has been a misunderstanding. Hmmm... Perhaps I should word things differently:

I am speculating that Brandon chose the word "vessel" to refer to the holders of Shards for the same deliberate reason that he used that word in Siri's case. I am speculating that the "Vessel" in both contexts are, in fact, the same term.

In my post before this I attempted to show how they could be the same term. Both contexts show beings that contain ("is a vessel of") something considered divine. I'm not trying to force this definition onto you guys, I'm just asking you to consider it.

I apologize for my previous insufficient wording. I hope my train of thought is clearer now.

I see. However, unless you can provide some reason to believe to connect the usage of one term to the other, it seems to be more coincidental than anything, and therefore still out of context. Additionally, that the Vessel of the God King was designated to hold something diving is a poor argument, since the priests never actually expected the vessel to actually produce a new God King. So comparing both contexts, one has a person actually holding something powerfully spiritual, the other is a figurehead which is expected religiously to hold something somewhat spiritual, but which isn't expected to. Since, as I said at the start, there isn't, as far as I'm aware, a reason to believe there's a connection between terms with regards to the origin, there isn't much of an argument for the shard vessel term to be expanded using the Hallandren vessl term.

[skaa he/him]

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I see. However, unless you can provide some reason to believe to connect the usage of one term to the other, it seems to be more coincidental than anything, and therefore still out of context. Additionally, that the Vessel of the God King was designated to hold something diving is a poor argument, since the priests never actually expected the vessel to actually produce a new God King. So comparing both contexts, one has a person actually holding something powerfully spiritual, the other is a figurehead which is expected religiously to hold something somewhat spiritual, but which isn't expected to. Since, as I said at the start, there isn't, as far as I'm aware, a reason to believe there's a connection between terms with regards to the origin, there isn't much of an argument for the shard vessel term to be expanded using the Hallandren vessl term.

I guess this is another "agree to disagree", then. I prefer to think Brandon did not just coincidentally use the same word for two different in-universe terms, but I do acknowledge the possibility.

I have already asked Brandon and Peter about this on Twitter. I hope they consider this mundane enough to answer directly. I'll just update this post if one of them does reply.

[soyperson]

3 hours ago, Argent said:

But the contexts are obviously different! Siri is being called Vessel because of the belief that she is to be the vessel of the God King's child, there is nothing about Shards and Splinters in this. Arguing that it's related is like arguing that the shards of a broken windshield are worth talking about when discussing the Shards of Adonalsium. 

It's the same word, doesn't mean it's the same term.

I think Arg is right in this; it might be much like what the Rosharans call Shards, but there being a greater Cosmerical meaning of the term. 

[zabracks]

14 hours ago, Argent said:

Compare that with what happens to the Returned. Their physical body dies, but their mind's journey from the Cognitive to the Beyond is interrupted by Endowment who offers them the choice to come back (not unlike what Harmony does with Wax, actually).

That's actually a really interesting parallel. Taking it a step further, I wonder whether Wax is a Splinter of Harmony at this point.