The New Windrunner

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

14 minutes ago, maxal said:

Yes but Brandon did say he had "great plans" for Moash... 

Oh, okay, that does change things. (I must admit, as somebody new to the Sanderson fan community I don't how you guys keep up with all the WoB out there.)

6 minutes ago, Humpty said:

Hopefully that is the case... I dont want him to become a windrunner I kind of feel like he made his choice. If he is going to be a Radiant at all I would rather him become one of the other orders we haven't seen yet. How about a Stoneward... I say Stoneward for a few reasons,  One, I think it would be ironic b/c Moash is a traitor twice over. Also he seems to be a natural warrior picking up the way of the warrior very easy. Also he is stubborn even in "proven error" which is a trait of the stonewards. It would be cool if he redeemed himself by learning about then exposing the majority of the Diagramists.

I was just thinking about this, and I don't know that Moash has done anything so terrible that a redemption arc would be satisfying. (Not that he didn't try, but like Sideshow Bob once said, they don't give out the Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry.) When I hear about "great plans" for Moash, my initial instinct is: Moash learns about the Diagram, gradually becomes convinced of its wisdom and necessity despite himself, and at the end of book 4 or book 5 he faces off against Kaladin again, each convinced of their own rightness and fighting to the death. To make that story work, he'd probably have to be a Radiant of some kind.

[Humpty he/him]

6 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

Oh, okay, that does change things. (I must admit, as somebody new to the Sanderson fan community I don't how you guys keep up with all the WoB out there.)

I was just thinking about this, and I don't know that Moash has done anything so terrible that a redemption arc would be satisfying. (Not that he didn't try, but like Sideshow Bob once said, they don't give out the Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry.) When I hear about "great plans" for Moash, my initial instinct is: Moash learns about the Diagram, gradually becomes convinced of its wisdom and necessity despite himself, and at the end of book 4 or book 5 he faces off against Kaladin again, each convinced of their own rightness and fighting to the death. To make that story work, he'd probably have to be a Radiant of some kind.

Nah sorry I am not buying into that. I don't really think Moash is the type of guy to take being used by the Diagramist lightly. He is the type of guy to go put a hurtin on someone for makeing him look like a fool. I think its much more likely that he will come to the realization that these people he is now in bed with are his enemies.

[Yezrien]

23 minutes ago, maxal said:

Yes but Brandon did say he had "great plans" for Moash... 

I'd like to think this refers a future in worldhopping, or plot-derailing villainy. But of all the characters we know so far, I think Moash would make a great Windrunner.

Why? Because of the the third Ideal: I will protect even those I hate! To truly understand that oath (and to deliver a satisfying dramatic moment when you swear it), you've got to have some serious hatred, like Kaladin did. Who do we know who's more hateful than Moash?

Seriously. I'm asking. Who on Roshar seems genuinely, passionately hateful? Find the hate, and you'll find your Windrunner. 

[stonedshaman]

I don't know if your line of thinking is correct.   Brandon said when he was talking about the new windrunner that the ideals aren't the same for all KR even if they are in the same order. Talking about that is actually what had him announce as it were the fact that there will be a second windrunner

[Pagerunner he/him]

11 minutes ago, stonedshaman said:

I don't know if your line of thinking is correct.   Brandon said when he was talking about the new windrunner that the ideals aren't the same for all KR even if they are in the same order. Talking about that is actually what had him announce as it were the fact that there will be a second windrunner

Here's the exact quote:

Quote

For example to Knights Radiant in the same order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths.

We will indeed see a new Windrunner specifically saying oaths.

[stonedshaman]

Pagerunner I'm not disputing that.  All I'm saying is that the windrunner will have different oaths than kaladin .  But I would like to extend my thanks for supplying the quote

Edited February 10, 2017 by stonedshaman
politeness

[Jofwu he/him]

41 minutes ago, stonedshaman said:

Pagerunner I'm not disputing that.  All I'm saying is that the windrunner will have different oaths than kaladin .  But I would like to extend my thanks for supplying the quote

My interpretation of Brandon's answer is that their oaths are still going to basically be the same thing. His point is just that it's the sentiment that matters, not the words themselves. So they might phrase their oaths differently from one person to the next.

For example, in Edgedancer...

Spoiler

Lift advances even though she never spoke her next oath out loud. She speaks it after the fact, for the heck of voicing the idea.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

Oh, okay, that does change things. (I must admit, as somebody new to the Sanderson fan community I don't how you guys keep up with all the WoB out there.)

You'll get the hang of it. I know for a fact how annoying it is to have everyone drop WoB you never heard of on you, when you are new, but eventually, you'll catch up.

16 hours ago, Belzedar said:

I'd like to think this refers a future in worldhopping, or plot-derailing villainy. But of all the characters we know so far, I think Moash would make a great Windrunner.

Why? Because of the the third Ideal: I will protect even those I hate! To truly understand that oath (and to deliver a satisfying dramatic moment when you swear it), you've got to have some serious hatred, like Kaladin did. Who do we know who's more hateful than Moash?

Seriously. I'm asking. Who on Roshar seems genuinely, passionately hateful? Find the hate, and you'll find your Windrunner. 

I doubt all Windrunners were hateful people: it seems a rather restrictive criteria to use to chose future knights. I would point out right here Brandon did say that while the essence of the oaths were the same for all knights of a same order, the wording and the circumstances would differ on an individual basis.

What does Kaladin's third oath teaches us? Upon first glance, it seems as if it wants Windrunner to try at protecting all people, even those he hates, but if we dig further, I think we can draw the conclusion the oath isn't about hate, but about rational thinking versus emotional one. In other words, a Windrunner has to offer protection to those who needs it independently of how he personally feels towards those persons. In Kaladin's case, it was hate, but it could also be the complete opposite: love.

I will protect those who need it the most not just those I love the most.

Or more broadly:

I will not let my feelings decide whom I should protect.

These are two examples which, I believe, embody the essence of the third oath with a complete different wording and a completely different character progression.

Hence, I think we cannot base ourselves merely on feelings existing within characters to determine if one is suited for one given order or another. We should also be careful in tying too closely individuals within the same order: not all Windrunners will be almost identical clones of Kaladin, not all Edgedancers will be street orphans with a bad mouth, not all Elsecaller will be scholars, etc.

Hate I believe is irrelevant when it comes to finding out the next Windrunner. The question we should ask ourselves if whom seek to protect when put to the trial? Whom is ready to give up chances of advancement, of escape, of fulfilling a dream in order to be better placed to protect others? Is it Moash? I think, based on the character we have read so far, it is practically impossible to guess. I would say no, but we do not know how the guy will progress for now on. 

Other thoughts for Moash would be Dustbringer as we still need one.

[stonedshaman]

@maxal  thank you.  You said what i wanted to but more beautifully and eloquently than I could have

[Yezrien]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I will not let my feelings decide whom I should protect.

These are two examples which, I believe, embody the essence of the third oath with a complete different wording and a completely different character progression.

You're probably right about this. I just like the irony of honorspren bonding with people capable of extreme hatred (odium).

It's a little corny, but... Odium will be defeated by those who've battled the odium within themselves.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Belzedar said:

You're probably right about this. I just like the irony of honorspren bonding with people capable of extreme hatred (odium).

It's a little corny, but... Odium will be defeated by those who've battled the odium within themselves.

I think all members of all orders are capable of hate. So far, the story just happen to have focused on Kaladin, hence perhaps the association. We might say being a Radiant is about balancing the several facets of oneself in order to draw out the best aspects. A character such as Kaladin has a strong tendency towards victimization which exacerbates his feelings of hate as he feels the whole world is out to get to him specifically. Part of his journey is to learn how to let go of his personal grudges in order to focus on strongest asset: his capacity to protect and his resourcefulness in doing so. Other Radiants will likely have similar progression: hate is a very natural feeling to have.

Only robots never hate.

What I would classify as "Odium related hate" is the one which consumes, the one which annihilate a given's persons good side in order to leave nothing but this ate. Moash, I believe has been this person, where will he go now? Only time will tell. Kaladin was very close, but chose differently. Adolin has hated too, but in his case, I feel it has drawn out his assets, his strongest qualities and not the opposite: not all hate is evil.

[Erinzard]

I actually think Szeth would make a good windrunner once he understands that Honor is not just keeping your commitments but doing what is right. I mean sure, Nale said he keeps his word and exemplifies justice, but how awesome would it be for Szeth to eventually get windrunner powers and fight alongside Kaladin when he used to fight against Kal with essentially stolen windrunner powers. It's a long shot, I just think it would be cool. He would get a chance to try to make up for all those he slaughtered by protecting those who can't protect themselves. 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Erinzard said:

I actually think Szeth would make a good windrunner once he understands that Honor is not just keeping your commitments but doing what is right. I mean sure, Nale said he keeps his word and exemplifies justice, but how awesome would it be for Szeth to eventually get windrunner powers and fight alongside Kaladin when he used to fight against Kal with essentially stolen windrunner powers. It's a long shot, I just think it would be cool. He would get a chance to try to make up for all those he slaughtered by protecting those who can't protect themselves. 

I personally don't see Szeth evolve into someone genuinely wanting to protect people. When forced on a trial, being made Truthless, Szeth didn't choose to protect nor to even try to: he chose to blindly obey to what he perceived as an ultimate law. Now, he is wondering why he should obey any law when laws are being manipulated by others to do their binding. He is out to look for something he could follow, obey without compromising himself. 

He sounds much more like a Skybreaker to me than anything else even if I still hope he wouldn't become a Radiant. However if he does, I'd be extremely surprised if it weren't a Skybreaker.

[Erinzard]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

I personally don't see Szeth evolve into someone genuinely wanting to protect people. When forced on a trial, being made Truthless, Szeth didn't choose to protect nor to even try to: he chose to blindly obey to what he perceived as an ultimate law. Now, he is wondering why he should obey any law when laws are being manipulated by others to do their binding. He is out to look for something he could follow, obey without compromising himself. 

He sounds much more like a Skybreaker to me than anything else even if I still hope he wouldn't become a Radiant. However if he does, I'd be extremely surprised if it weren't a Skybreaker.

I agree he didn't exemplify windrunners in any way before, but he was being honorable in upholding the law because he thought it was "right". Kaladin has also always tried to do the "right" thing, but Kal has always questioned what the right thing is where Szeth assumed that the law must be right. I see them as two different approaches to the same problem. Kal's questions led him to lose Syl briefly, but if Szeth realizes that there is a concept of right as determined by the intent of Honor on Roshar (or however it works), then he will be the best storming Windrunner that ever ran winds. And when he figures out how to determine right and wrong, he might be able to explain it to Nightblood who will then be a much less dangerous force in the Cosmere. Again, I totally agree with you, Skybreaker makes more sense, but in terms of poetic plot twists it could be a good one. 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Erinzard said:

I agree he didn't exemplify windrunners in any way before, but he was being honorable in upholding the law because he thought it was "right". Kaladin has also always tried to do the "right" thing, but Kal has always questioned what the right thing is where Szeth assumed that the law must be right. I see them as two different approaches to the same problem. Kal's questions led him to lose Syl briefly, but if Szeth realizes that there is a concept of right as determined by the intent of Honor on Roshar (or however it works), then he will be the best storming Windrunner that ever ran winds. And when he figures out how to determine right and wrong, he might be able to explain it to Nightblood who will then be a much less dangerous force in the Cosmere. Again, I totally agree with you, Skybreaker makes more sense, but in terms of poetic plot twists it could be a good one. 

These two different approaches speak of two very different orders. Both Skybreakers and Windrunners are honor-bound, so it isn't surprising two individuals taken within those orders would share a similar desire to remain as honorable as possible. The major difference in between those order appears to be as you states: one sees protecting as the utmost quality while the other places the written law above else. It seems as if Skybreakers truly believe in order carefully enclosed through predefined regulations.

Kaladin determined what is right from what is wrong based on whom he has given his word to while Szeth finds he needs a superior written law to guide him. Szeth wants to be told what to think and what to act while Kaladin wants to have the freedom to determine it, as long as it remains honorable.

[Erinzard]

Just now, maxal said:

Kaladin determined what is right from what is wrong based on whom he has given his word to while Szeth finds he needs a superior written law to guide him. Szeth wants to be told what to think and what to act while Kaladin wants to have the freedom to determine it, as long as it remains honorable.

Very good point. When you put it that way it seems pretty clear cut that because their approaches are completely different they couldn't approach the ideals in the same way. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Erinzard said:

Very good point. When you put it that way it seems pretty clear cut that because their approaches are completely different they couldn't approach the ideals in the same way. 

I personally feel their different approaches speak of two different orders, two different set of orders.

[geoffw35 he/him]

I completely agree that Szeth is perfectly suited to be a Skybreaker. One interesting twist is that he now has Nightblood instead of bonding a spren. How does that affect things like becoming a KR? I hope we hear more about this in Oathbringer. I think I heard somewhere that Brandon will be using Szeth as the primary focus character in book 4, but I could be mistaken. I'm very interested to see what his character becomes. I also hope that Brandon publishes Nightblood close to the same time. 

[Jaconis]

The members of bridge 4 are the most likely candidates in my opinion. Teft and Lopen are good guesses, but I'd like to add Skar in as well. We haven't seen much of his personality yet or dealt with any of his issues, so there's not really much evidence to support it. The main thing that keeps him in mind is that for two books he has been mentioned in the same breathe as Moash when talking about skill with a spear, and there has to be some significance to that. (I guess there doesn't need to be, but it would feel like a weird thing to mention, several times across two books, for it to be meaningless).

[+Extesian he/him]

On 08/02/2017 at 4:25 PM, Gizmosowner said:

No idea where he got it from

Here

Quote

RVIEW: Apr 8th, 2016

OdysseyCon 2016

BLIGHTSONG

Were the oaths of the Knights radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally.

BRANDON SANDERSON

*apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example to Knights Radiant in the same order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so

I think the next Windrunner will be Shen (Rlain).

[Jofwu he/him]

55 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Here

I think the next Windrunner will be Shen (Rlain).

The debate isn't about whether we'll see another Windrunner speak oaths. It's about whether we'll see another Windrunner speak oaths in Oathbringer. The thread began with the statement: "I heard there is going to be a new windrunner in the next book." That WoB only says "in a future book".

[+Extesian he/him]

7 minutes ago, jofwu said:

The debate isn't about whether we'll see another Windrunner speak oaths. It's about whether we'll see another Windrunner speak oaths in Oathbringer. The thread began with the statement: "I heard there is going to be a new windrunner in the next book." That WoB only says "in a future book".

I don't think it's much of a debate any more. The WoB says a future book, and as has been pointed out, if there was one saying the next book someone would have found it by now. I don't think it'll be in Oathbringer, I think he'll be introducing us to orders one member at a time and multiples will only start to come out later.

Doesn't stop me hoping it's Shen

[Jofwu he/him]

@extesian

My mistake. You posted the same quote on the first page, so my interpretation of your post was, "Guys, why are you still debating this. I already posted the WoB."

Don't mean to suggest you should stop hoping for Windrunner Rlain.

[+Extesian he/him]

7 minutes ago, jofwu said:

@extesian

My mistake. You posted the same quote on the first page, so my interpretation of your post was, "Guys, why are you still debating this. I already posted the WoB."

Don't mean to suggest you should stop hoping for Windrunner Rlain.

All good @jofwu I didn't even notice I'd quoted my much earlier post, I was posting in a hurry. It wasn't a particularly helpful way to do it! I'm still new enough that I don't try to give a decisive answer my simply quoting myself