teknopathetic he/him Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) We know the quote "Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return" out of the Diagram, but I am wondering if this is a misinterpretation. The Skybreakers were working hard to kill new radiants, but this plan is shown as being absurdly futile. Preventing the new orders from being founded would be an absolutely horrific idea. The Diagram states "Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon". We are lead to believe that the Skybreakers were completely misguided in their task. Also, the Diagram states "They will come you cannot stop their oaths look for those who survive when they should not that pattern will be your clue". The Diagram seems to think Surge binders are inevitable. The easiest interpretation of the Diagram is that Radiants will make fighting the desolations harder, but how could that be? Granted, the Heralds managed to fight desolations without Radiants for some time, but still? Could 'the new orders' be literal "New Orders" of Radiants? We know that Seons and the "Sword" Seth receives can bestow new powers outside of the Radiant orders (WoB). We also know that the Radiants are not natural creations of Honor. Honor was suprised when the spren began bonding with humans to create Nahel bonds. The Spren made a cognitive leap (teehee) and learned to mimic what they had seen others manifest on the cognitive realm. Spren might be able to mimic a lot more than we have seen thus far. Could new types of Spren preform the Nahel bond once they see a Seon or a "Certain Sword" create a new type of bond on Roshar? The Spren have a precedent of creating new manifestations of investiture without the guidance of a Shardholder. Why wouldn't the be able to mimic a Seon Bond set of skills or abilities? Once, lets say, a Keenspren figures it out, then perhaps more Keenspren will start bonding. Boom: new orders screwing up the entire system on Roshar, the politics in Shadesmaar, and the religion of the people. That could be a problem worth smiting. I know that Honor didn't intend for 11 Orders of Radiants, and that the world has 10 gas giants and 10 essences, but Honor also didn't intend for Radiants at all either.... And Honor isn't exactly tending the garden anymore. Who knows what his fate spells for the magic system now. Edited January 29, 2017 by teknopathetic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 Spren havent created manifestations of investiture, just enabled humans to use the ones currently in place. It is possible that new spren bond humans to give them new abilities. However, I don't think this is going to happen, since we've had all this setup for the 10 orders of the KR already. Furthermore, looking at the complete quote, you missed something important in your excerpt of it. Quote "Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return." Words of Radiance, Chapter 84 epigraph I bolded the relevant part you missed. Since Taravangian says return, it seems likely that he think it's going to be the same orders as before reforming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic he/him Posted January 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) Just now, Spoolofwhool said: Spren havent created manifestations of investiture, just enabled humans to use the ones currently in place. It is possible that new spren bond humans to give them new abilities. However, I don't think this is going to happen, since we've had all this setup for the 10 orders of the KR already. Furthermore, looking at the complete quote, you missed something important in your excerpt of it. I bolded the relevant part you missed. Since Taravangian says return, it seems likely that he think it's going to be the same orders as before reforming. Haha, i edited to the full quote a second before you posted this. The Diagram is a translation of a much more difficult language. There could be some pretty awful translation errors when interpreting the statements. But, I do see your point. I just can't understand how fewer Radiants could be helpful? The Diagram seems to find the Skybreakers' efforts laughable and useless. New orders ARE returning. The Diagram thinks it can't be stopped,but at the same time says maybe stop it? I suppose the Diagram could want the Radiants to not form formal orders and instead work as rogue agents, but that seems pretty damnation bizarre before a war. There is some incongruity in the Diagram over this issue. Edited January 29, 2017 by teknopathetic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 Actually, I don't think the Diagram wants the KR to come back at all. Another section does caution against a course of action as it could push those Nahel bonding to accept the bond further. Graves says so as well at the end of WoR, that they unintentionally pushed Kaladin to accept the Nahel Bond, and implied it was a mistake. Therefore, the secret is for when too many of them return, so that they can be removed before they are too disruptive. I think order refers to the general classification of those with a Nahel bond, which powers they possess and which type of spren they have bonded. It isn't referring to the structure organization that was subsequently created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humpty he/him Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 I think the Diagram was written when Mr. T was under the direct influence of Odium. Or at the very least one of the Unmade. Just a thought to ponder on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted January 29, 2017 Report Share Posted January 29, 2017 16 minutes ago, Humpty said: I think the Diagram was written when Mr. T was under the direct influence of Odium. Or at the very least one of the Unmade. Just a thought to ponder on. I don't think so. It has been fairly strongly implied that Taravangian wrote it under the effect of enhanced intelligence of multiple types, not with actual foresight, which would be more indicative of Odium's influence. There are other reasons, but I'm not going to go into them because it will derail a thread. This has been debated before on a couple topics, I suggest checking them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic he/him Posted January 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 Do we think Odium is behind foresight? Seems like Cultivation likely bestows forsight and that the Vorin Religion has got its ideology all messed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 he/him Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 4 hours ago, teknopathetic said: Do we think Odium is behind foresight? Seems like Cultivation likely bestows forsight and that the Vorin Religion has got its ideology all messed up. We know that more than one Shard had access to future sight, and that Odium - Hatred - is not an Intent that would preclude its use (unlike, say, Ruin). Also the major source of non-Radiant future sight is the Death Rattles sent by Moelach, who is an Unmade and therefore an Odiumspren. There's certainly something to Vorin paranoia about futuresight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu he/him Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 23 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said: I don't think the Diagram wants the KR to come back at all. If this is the case, why not let the secret out now and cut them off before they even begin reforming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 36 minutes ago, jofwu said: If this is the case, why not let the secret out now and cut them off before they even begin reforming? They arent a problem yet. Besides, it's possible that playing that card will have some sort of cost, hindering the other plans. So he's holding onto it until they start getting in the way, if they do, then he'll drop them. Also, it probably wouldn't be easy to do unless they start grouping. That way, you just hit the main group, instead of dropping them one by one. I'm assuming the secret is some sort of truth that was hidden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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