Oathbringer (in-world book)

[MoS03]

Dalinar not a tactician? Doesn't he offer some crucial details during a chasm run in WoK while trying to convince a Highprince to join him? Does he not also handle a lot of of the strategies during the battle with the Stormforms? Am I remembering these things wrong?

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, MoS03 said:

Dalinar not a tactician? Doesn't he offer some crucial details during a chasm run in WoK while trying to convince a Highprince to join him? Does he not also handle a lot of of the strategies during the battle with the Stormforms? Am I remembering these things wrong?

I am referring to his battle plans which basically all end up being the same: jump into the melee and kill as many as possible. As always, he has the tendency to get lost within his fighting and thus losing the agreed upon strategy. During the battle of the Stormforms, Dalinar doesn't do much: he dispatches units to support the leading officers. Adolin is the one who wins the battle by being clever, Aladar only wins because he basically has all the ressources: Dalinar is the overseer. Sure, he is obviously not devoid of military skills, but I do not read him as a great tactical mind. I read Dalinar as someone who learns mostly through personal experience and when we meet him in WoK, he has had a lot of it. 

For instances, Field Marshal Tamas in the Powder Mage trilogy is an amazing military tactician: he anticipates his enemies, he traps them, he toys with their expectations in order to secure victories. Now, that's what I would call a great tactician. I have seen none of this in Dalinar: his tactics generally are overwhelming the opponent with superior strength and basic strategies. He has yet to be.... innovative and creative. He has yet to rely on something else than brute strength and number superiority.

Mind, he isn't a simpleton, it isn't what I meant, but I do not read him as a military genius to the same extend as I read other characters in other series.I personally feel Dalinar's greatest strength remains his ability to impose his will onto people and to get them to do as he says, for better or for worst. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

I have to agree with Maxal on this one. Dalinar's combat technique (which appears to have somewhat rubbed off on Adolin) is basically an Iron Man quote from the Avengers movie: "I have a plan. Attack." He became the stuff of legends by leaping into the fray and never holding back. Even catching the Chasmfiend claw seemed unplanned, and more like his combat instincts kicked in to give him the last second save. It's not that he can't strategize, but that his mind and body have gotten so used to acting on impulse and being "in the moment" that planning on the fly would only slow him down.

[maxal she/her]

5 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I have to agree with Maxal on this one. Dalinar's combat technique (which appears to have somewhat rubbed off on Adolin) is basically an Iron Man quote from the Avengers movie: "I have a plan. Attack." He became the stuff of legends by leaping into the fray and never holding back. Even catching the Chasmfiend claw seemed unplanned, and more like his combat instincts kicked in to give him the last second save. It's not that he can't strategize, but that his mind and body have gotten so used to acting on impulse and being "in the moment" that planning on the fly would only slow him down.

Yes. I think this is an apt description. I would however disagree about Adolin: he has been using strategies in all of the fights he was allowed to lead without directly obeying to his father. Each one of his duels feature him finding the best strategy to not only defeat his opponent, but to do it while maximizing the effect for his father's great plan. He almost never rely on his strength to secure victories, preferring to rely on better tactics. He also blatantly tells us early in WoK: a duel isn't just a show of brute strength, it is a fight of the minds and he loved to pitch his against others. It is also why he hates hunting so much: it is just a butchery, just people hacking through an animal. All in all, hunting is the embodiment of Dalinar's preferred fighting, but not Adolin.

Hence, I disagree with this particular statement, but I agree with the rest of the post.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

He almost never rely on his strength to secure victories, preferring to rely on better tactics.

Given how much others seem to rely on their Shardplate, and the fact that it feels basically built for everything but precision, I made an internal hammer and scalpel comparison, where Plate made you the hammer by default.
I realize now that I went a bit too far in that inner analogy. Good catch on that quote though, I guess most of my memory of Adolin in battle was the Tower, where strategy became a little less relevant.

[maxal she/her]

6 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Given how much others seem to rely on their Shardplate, and the fact that it feels basically built for everything but precision, I made an internal hammer and scalpel comparison, where Plate made you the hammer by default.
I realize now that I went a bit too far in that inner analogy. Good catch on that quote though, I guess most of my memory of Adolin in battle was the Tower, where strategy became a little less relevant.

Well, a good part of strategy is to know when it is time to just unleash and when it is time to be clever. At the Tower, Adolin thought he was going to die. He later speaks of unknown panic and stark terror when he found out they were left to die. His only priorities were to fight, fight, fight and fight again while trying to protect his father because that's just how he is. So yeah, there weren't any strategy making here, but honestly there was none to have.

Shardplate can be made into what you want it to do: it can be a hammer, but it can also be elegant. In Dalinar's flashbacks, we see him maneuver in his Plate for one of the first time..... It is quite hilarious. Let's just say were a leagues away from Adolin's careful planned precise motions.

[nervousnerd he/him]

I'm not so sure that being good at dueling necessarily equates to being good at battle tactics. I think the only great tactic that we saw him come up with was cutting through the crem buildings in the battle of Narak. Other than that, he seems to have the same jump in first style.

[Tarion]

20 hours ago, maxal said:

I am referring to his battle plans which basically all end up being the same: jump into the melee and kill as many as possible. As always, he has the tendency to get lost within his fighting and thus losing the agreed upon strategy. During the battle of the Stormforms, Dalinar doesn't do much: he dispatches units to support the leading officers. Adolin is the one who wins the battle by being clever, Aladar only wins because he basically has all the ressources: Dalinar is the overseer. Sure, he is obviously not devoid of military skills, but I do not read him as a great tactical mind. I read Dalinar as someone who learns mostly through personal experience and when we meet him in WoK, he has had a lot of it. 

Worth noting that the other Highprinces certainly see him as a great tactical mind. 

See Chapter 8, Words of Radiance, where Dalinar shows up to a battle, correctly anticipates exactly what the Parshendi are about to do, and gives the correct advice to turn the battle from a Parshendi victory to a rout. And then Aladar, a Highprince who commands from the back (I.e. one who relies on his tactical acumen to win, and as a Highprince, someone who should have similar levels of experience as Dalinar) comments that Dalinar is good at it

“Damnation,” Aladar said softly. “I hate that you’re so good at this.”

It's mostly an informed attribute, but Dalinar's strategic skills are definitely very good. 

[maxal she/her]

19 hours ago, nervousnerd said:

I'm not so sure that being good at dueling necessarily equates to being good at battle tactics. I think the only great tactic that we saw him come up with was cutting through the crem buildings in the battle of Narak. Other than that, he seems to have the same jump in first style.

I think it does matter. I certainly think it matters Adolin is able to craft the perfect strategy to both defeat his opponents and yield the maximum result each and every single time. The way I read it, Adolin is the best duelist not just because he has the greatest skill, but also because he is keen on using his mind as well as his brawn to secure a victory. 

As for larger scaled battles, well, we have to remember Adolin has not been leading the army for a long time, just a mere few weeks and in this mere few weeks, he did mange to secure an important strategic victories at the expense of a more numerous, stronger and having the field advantage at a crucial time. If my mind isn't mistaken, Robb Stark is crowned king and named the "Young Wolf" after just one important impressive victory. Had it been another story, Adolin would have acquire quite a deal of respect for his victory.

I would also point out Dalinar has much more experience than Adolin, which does count. Young Dalinar, however, had absolutely no mind for strategy. I'll admit I am very bias for having read The Thrill: my perception of Dalinar is highly influenced by it. Needless to say, when he was about the same age as Adolin and even several years older, Dalinar barely understood the basic of war strategies or if he did, it doesn't come across as such within his POV. Adolin is thus far more advanced than his father was, at the same age. He is still very young, but based on what we have seen so far, I'd say he has huge potential in this area, providing he keeps at it long enough.

1 hour ago, Tarion said:

Worth noting that the other Highprinces certainly see him as a great tactical mind. 

See Chapter 8, Words of Radiance, where Dalinar shows up to a battle, correctly anticipates exactly what the Parshendi are about to do, and gives the correct advice to turn the battle from a Parshendi victory to a rout. And then Aladar, a Highprince who commands from the back (I.e. one who relies on his tactical acumen to win, and as a Highprince, someone who should have similar levels of experience as Dalinar) comments that Dalinar is good at it

It's mostly an informed attribute, but Dalinar's strategic skills are definitely very good. 

To be honest, apart from the Plateau fight towards the end of WoR, most fights our foes end up in seems rather simplistic... Mind, it may be I am reading the character completely wrong, so perhaps you are right, but I keep on thinking Dalinar's greatest strength isn't his strategy making: it is his brute force and his ability to just stand in the face of adversity. He just doesn't bulge: you can't make him do what you want.

For my part, I feel strategy has to involve more than moving troops around and a given level of anticipation of the opponent's movement, it also requires being creative, using the field to your advantage and turn a disadvantage into a strength. All in all, it is precisely what Adolin does and what I do not recall Dalinar doing.

But again, this is my personal reading, I just didn't read Dalinar as being that impressively good. It is more the others I felt were very poor. Alethi, for all of their warring culture, as a whole, seems to rely on number superiority and fearless approached to defeat their opponents more than real war tactics. Kaladin seems as the odd one for thinking of ways to not get his people kill.