Shen is a dullform

[Bremen]

If this were true and they were honorbound to follow him then why would they want to escape and live free from their gods? Why would they kill the king and bring war to themselves to stop him from doing something that would bring about the return of their gods?

 

???

 

If they are honorbound to follow Odium and didn't particularly like serving him, why wouldn't they want to escape from him and prevent his return?

 

 

The way I've been thinking about it is if Odium returns he'll be able to take control of them somehow like Ruin did to the Koloss, and that learning Honorform would be protection, a way of breaking his hold on them.

My contention is that honor is the method Odium uses to control them.

 

 

I'm not even sure I believe that their of Odium, the more I read about the Thrill the more I believe that it is of Odium and feeling it means he can exert influence on you. Could also be why to the Shin a warrior is the lowest in society, that to feel the Thrill for battle leaves you touched by Odium.

 

I think Brandon has said that Odium doesn't invest himself.  As such I don't think anything is truly of Odium.  He corrupts/turns others power against them.

 

I guess the thrill could be turning the Alethi against themselves... guess we'll have to RAFO

Edited January 30, 2014 by Bremen

[Duskshard]

???

 

If they are honorbound to follow Odium and didn't particularly like serving him, why wouldn't they want to escape from him and prevent his return?

 

Because if they were honorbound to follow him it wouldn't be honorable to escape him, or to prevent his return regardless of how they personally felt.

[Bremen]

Because if they were honorbound to follow him it wouldn't be honorable to escape him, or to prevent his return regardless of how they personally felt.

I guess it would depend on whether they were told not to hinder his return.

[Chlehrma]

If Shen is a spy, why has he apparently not reported that Kaladin is a surgebinder?

You win. +1

Shen is not a spy. If he were, being that parshendi can communicate across distance, then Eshonai would have known for a fact that the humans had surge binders and her friend would not have had to convince her of the fact. This means that their spies infiltrated the parshmen slave groups.

[Bloodfalcon]

and making sure the assassin wears white because Gavilar deserves to see him coming

 

AND making sure the assassin was seen in their retinue

 

AND then admitting responsibility after the deed was done

 

seriously, if they wanted they could have had Szeth kill Gavilar and feigned ignorance

So if you and I shook hands, then I had Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson - dressed in a neon green leotard - come punch you in the face, that would be honorable on my part as long as I admitted it was my idea? I think you would question my honor at the end of the day.

[Moogle]

So if you and I shook hands, then I had Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson - dressed in a neon green leotard - come punch you in the face, that would be honorable on my part as long as I admitted it was my idea? I think you would question my honor at the end of the day.

 

Maybe if you also:

• Conducted war fairly, by making sure to never send more men than your enemy has.
• Didn't try to kill wounded enemies (the Parshendi did not focus on injured Bridge 4 members).
• Made sure to 1v1 your strongest enemies when they have Shardplate (Dalinar vs Eshonai; the other Parshendi backed off)
• Let your enemies go after defeating them (end of The Tower battle where Dalinar got betrayed).

I'd be willing to give you a pass on that one and call you honorable. Kaladin even remarks that he finds the Parshendi incredibly honorable compared to the Alethi soldiers.

 

The Parshendi didn't poison Gavilar, they gave him honorable combat and a chance to live. If you had to assassinate someone, it's hard to argue that it would be possible to do it more honorably than the Parshendi.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Moogle

[Bloodfalcon]

Maybe if you also:

• Conducted war fairly, by making sure to never send more men than your enemy has.
• Didn't try to kill wounded enemies (the Parshendi did not focus on injured Bridge 4 members).
• Made sure to 1v1 your strongest enemies when they have Shardplate (Dalinar vs Eshonai; the other Parshendi backed off)
• Let your enemies go after defeating them (end of The Tower battle where Dalinar got betrayed).

I'd be willing to give you a pass on that one and call you honorable. Kaladin even remarks that he finds the Parshendi incredibly honorable compared to the Alethi soldiers.

 

The Parshendi didn't poison Gavilar, they gave him honorable combat and a chance to live. If you had to assassinate someone, it's hard to argue that it would be possible to do it more honorably than the Parshendi.

 

But again you shift the focus from the actual event. It was dishonorable. Pardons are something you give only for wrongful acts. I wasn't claiming the Parshendii have never acted honorably, but to say that they might be bound by honor or something like that (or that Szeth was acting honorably).... you'd be wrong. 

[Moogle]

But again you shift the focus from the actual event. It was dishonorable.

 

Breaking a pact in order to not have your entire race turned into Voidbringers could be seen as the lesser of two dishonorable actions. I'm honestly not sure. Overall, I'd say the Parshendi are honorable, particularly in contrast to the Alethi.

[Scott]

I hope that Kaladin tries to ride a highstorm at some point, and Bridge Four is outside with him.  Kaladin will fail but Shen will transform into something awesome

 

This is my prediction.

[Duskshard]

I hope that Kaladin tries to ride a highstorm at some point, and Bridge Four is outside with him.  Kaladin will fail but Shen will transform into something awesome

 

This is my prediction.

 

Liftform 

[Bloodfalcon]

Breaking a pact in order to not have your entire race turned into Voidbringers could be seen as the lesser of two dishonorable actions. I'm honestly not sure. Overall, I'd say the Parshendi are honorable, particularly in contrast to the Alethi.

Yeah, I think they are too, but when you consider the standards we have been holding them to... We expect the Alethi to exhaust all options to avoid war and vengeance, but Gavilar told the Parshendii of a plan and they had him assassinated. It doesn't sound like that was very well negotiated either. That event is still muddled to us, but it is very similar logic. So far, even our main Alethi POV characters think the Alethi are a bit slimy though, hahaha that is putting it nicely. 

[ccstat]

Shen is not a spy. If he were, being that parshendi can communicate across distance, then Eshonai would have known for a fact that the humans had surge binders and her friend would not have had to convince her of the fact. This means that their spies infiltrated the parshmen slave groups.

I'm not convinced. The evidence Jasnah cites for them communicating across distances is that they can all sing in time with each other no matter how far apart. But we know from Eshonai's POV that they are always attuning to one or another rhythm that they can "hear." It doesn't follow that they can actually communicate across distances, only that they all share a connection to something humans can't sense.

 

In (sort-of) support of this, think about the first time Kaladin wears the Parshendi bone armor. Most of the enemy archers shoot at him in outrage, but not all of them. I assume that if they were really passing information telepathically then all of the archers would have noticed and been distracted. Similarly, in the battle of the Tower, Kaladin fights through to a group of Parshendi who haven't taken the gems out of their beards yet. It could be that they underestimated him and hadn't bothered to do that, but to me it means that they hadn't gotten the (very important) message about a surgebinder using stormlight from your beard to kill you.

[Harsh Varia]

If Shen is a spy, why has he apparently not reported that Kaladin is a surgebinder?

  

You win. +1

Shen is not a spy. If he were, being that parshendi can communicate across distance, then Eshonai would have known for a fact that the humans had surge binders and her friend would not have had to convince her of the fact. This means that their spies infiltrated the parshmen slave groups.

I disagree. Let's assume Shen is a spy in dull form. It was stated that people in dull form are not very bright. So it's possible that they are not very good spies but they are the only tools parshendi have. That is why eshonai (might have misspelled that) did not have a lot of details about the surge binder but she knew of him from the reports she got.

[ccstat]

I think it's simplest to assume Shen is dullform when he arrives at bridge 4, and therefore a listener spy.

For those who think he was in slaveform but discovered another form on his own, I suggest looking for descriptions of Shen's appearance or behavior and trying to find a shift after a highstorm. If such evidence exists, I would be much more willing to believe he is not a spy.

[Chlehrma]

I think it's simplest to assume Shen is dullform when he arrives at bridge 4, and therefore a listener spy.

For those who think he was in slaveform but discovered another form on his own, I suggest looking for descriptions of Shen's appearance or behavior and trying to find a shift after a highstorm. If such evidence exists, I would be much more willing to believe he is not a spy.

The only highstorm between when we last saw Shen in WoK and first see Shen in WoR is the one where Dalinar discovers that the Almighty died, after that we have Shen eating more and getting tattooed. It should also be noted that Shen is now free and no longer a slave, so maybe that impacts how he acts even in slave form.

[Oudeis]

I've seen you mention this before, but I'm curious to know how you think this would be possible. Not that it isn't, but to me it would seem unlikely as Syl is the only 'honorspren' that was allowed to come back. <-- This being contingent on said honorform requiring honorspren to achieve the form, but I think that's a fairly safe assumption.

 

I disagree. We've never heard of matespren, but we have heard of passionspren. I don't think it's as obviously one-to-one as you think. And would that assume that there are dullspren? My point is, as someone else has said, we know next to nothing about the process. Saying that anything is a fairly safe assumption is incredibly premature.

 

I think that Shen is slaveform who will learn to be something more than he is. The one doubt I have about Shen being is a spy is that I have a hard believing the Listeners would want to have a spy among the bridge crews?

 

I don't believe Shen is a spy, but this isn't a reason against it. Parshmen don't get to say, "Excuse me, I'd love to be assigned to the bridge crews if you please, thank you so very kindly," they are property that barely talk, if they talk at all. I would guess that, especially as they're in dullform, listener spies simply go where they are told, and hope to come across some useful information.

 

For those who think he was in slaveform but discovered another form on his own, I suggest looking for descriptions of Shen's appearance or behavior and trying to find a shift after a highstorm.

 

To clarify, I personally think he's still in slaveform. I think he's starting to act a bit differently because, as Eshonai points out, your form isn't the overriding drive most listeners pretend it is. He's starting to be treated like a person, so a little bit, in little ways, he's starting to act like a person. I think this is going to be a big part of what eventually leads him to discover a new form, perhaps with Shallan's aid to conjure him some creationspren.

 

Random thoughts/conjectures:

 

As a new listener recently freed from slaveform who really likes Kaladin, Shen becomes integral in the pursuit of peace between the races. He and Eshonai get it on. Their portmanteau, Eshen, is noticed to be a pretty good Veden name.

[EvilKetchupCow]

Why was shen put in the bridge crew? Was he randomly chosen or picked for that purpose. Maybe Sadeas's Wife found out he could possibly be a spy and gave the idea to Hashal. 

[shadewolf]

So if you and I shook hands, then I had Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson - dressed in a neon green leotard - come punch you in the face, that would be honorable on my part as long as I admitted it was my idea? I think you would question my honor at the end of the day.

 

if we're doing thought constructs, say you're friends with this person, but you find out he's going to do something horrible, which is more honorable, staying with you're friend out of loyalty or stopping him from doing whatever he plans on doing anyway you can.

[Bloodfalcon]

if we're doing thought constructs, say you're friends with this person, but you find out he's going to do something horrible, which is more honorable, staying with you're friend out of loyalty or stopping him from doing whatever he plans on doing anyway you can.

I would say the option where you try to convince him not to. Negotiate, maybe even explain the problem. I don't think you would sign a peace treaty and then higher an assassin the same day though. That doesn't sound like the course of action I would take with one of my friends. 

[Duskshard]

Why was shen put in the bridge crew? Was he randomly chosen or picked for that purpose. Maybe Sadeas's Wife found out he could possibly be a spy and gave the idea to Hashal. 

 

Or maybe he was placed in bridge four by Sadea's wife as one of her spy's to get info on the bridge crew and it's leader who was causing trouble.

 

Now that he's been freed by Dalinar he's starting change and grow.

[Oudeis]

if we're doing thought constructs, say you're friends with this person, but you find out he's going to do something horrible, which is more honorable, staying with you're friend out of loyalty or stopping him from doing whatever he plans on doing anyway you can.

 

 

I would say the option where you try to convince him not to. Negotiate, maybe even explain the problem. I don't think you would sign a peace treaty and then higher an assassin the same day though. That doesn't sound like the course of action I would take with one of my friends. 

 

Bloodfalcon, you wonderful intelligent person you.

 

Forcing "moral arguments" into a binary system is a contrived and false analogy. There are never two options, there are thousands. There is no plausible situation where you are faced with the idea of, "Let your friend slaughter innocents" or "kill your friend." You can't say "lesser of two evils is more honorable" because you didn't have two evils, you had fifty evils, a few hundred gray areas, and maybe a couple of risky but plausible goods.

[Meg]

You know what just reeks of honor? Signing a peace treaty and then assassinating the head of the other side. Woah, they might be Honor's champion.

Though this sounds very ironically, I'm with you here.

Anyway I'd not say that the Parshendi in all are dishonorable. But this special event was not "of honor" (I didn't write "of Honor" by purpose); I was more a desperate decision made because of the fears the Parshendi had, although this motive doesn't justify an assassination.

This said in advance.

 

and making sure the assassin wears white because Gavilar deserves to see him coming *1

 

AND making sure the assassin was seen in their retinue *2

 

AND then admitting responsibility after the deed was done *3

 

seriously, if they wanted they could have had Szeth kill Gavilar and feigned ignorance *4

*1: Szeth was told that he had to wear white because:

 

The white clothing was a Parshendi tradition, foreign to him. But he did as his masters required and did not ask for an explanation.

...

White to be bold. White to not blend into the night. White to give warning.

TWoK, Prologue

So it's not (only) about Gavilar, it's been told as tradition and why.

*2: Neither from TWoK nor from the excerpts from WoR I see that the Parshendi "made sure that he was seen in their retinue".

What did I miss?

*3: This might be the 'honorable' part of this event, but I think it was more something like a warning (even though they didn't explain further).

*4: Surely they could have tried to do so. But I think this would have been against their reasons for Gavilar's assassination.

I apologize for not having/giving more than gut feelings for my impressions.

 

Why was shen put in the bridge crew? Was he randomly chosen or picked for that purpose. Maybe Sadeas's Wife found out he could possibly be a spy and gave the idea to Hashal.

I -- naively -- always believed what Gaz told Kaladin:

 

“I thought parshmen were too valuable to use in bridge runs,” Kaladin said.

“This is just an experiment,” Gaz said. “Brightness Hashal wants to know her options. Finding enough bridgemen has been difficult lately, and parshmen could help fill in holes.”

But with this newer information about Parshendi spies you're right to ask. I'd like to know why you think the idea came from Ialai and if you think Shen should spy on the bridgemen for Sadeas?

[Moogle]

I was just doing a reread of parts of TWoK, and I noticed that Teft mentioned that he was suspicious of Teft and would be keeping an eye on him. Seems like foreshadowing to me.

[QuantumHarmonix]

I was just doing a reread of parts of TWoK, and I noticed that Teft mentioned that he was suspicious of Teft and would be keeping an eye on him. Seems like foreshadowing to me.

Teft is suspicious of himself? That doesn't bode well.

[Moogle]

Teft is suspicious of himself? That doesn't bode well.

 

Bah, that goes to show why you shouldn't post in the middle of the night. I meant Shen, naturally. Teft was suspicious of him. I found it interesting in light of the possibility of him being a spy.