Is Breeze A Good Manipulator ... Or Just Full of Air?

[aeromancer]

“What they do not realize—and what you must realize—is that manipulating others is something that all people do. In fact, manipulation is at the core of our social interaction.” -Lord Breeze Ladrian.

Ah, Breeze, you wonderful manipulator. Obviously the best in the Mistborn series. Except for, you know, Kelsier, who riled up the population of an entire city into rebellion. And, maybe the Lord Ruler who managed to beat the skaa down in the first place and control the world for a thousand years through the nobility. Also, the First Citizen, who controlled a city by being a dictator. Elend should probably be somewhere above you as well, you know, having created a stable political system (for an entire year!) that had classes formerly attempting to kill each other getting along. And, um, Allrianne Cett, for obvious reasons. (Maybe Straff? Nah, he's just a run-of-the-mill warlord.) You can probably see where I’m going with this. Breeze isn’t a good manipulator. He is, at best, a mediocre one who is bolstered to ‘passable’ by being an expert with playing with emotions. Which, by the way, is cheating and I say ‘passable’ comparing him to non-magical manipulators, like, say, politicians. Breeze’s claim to fame is being able to convince a dozen men of a hundred to rebel, and while that’s all and good (earning several thousand troops over the course of a year), he’s still pretty bad. I’ll explain why, but first, I’ll take out two counterpoints.

Counterpoint 1: The Soothing Stations. Yes, there were Soothing stations. But, that didn’t stop Kelsier, and Breeze has emotional alomancy himself to level the playing field. Remember, even though Breeze can only Soothe, he himself claims that you can achieve the same effects by both Pushing and Pulling. Meaning, Breeze at that point is only on his own talents, and he’s mediocre at best. (And if he’s wrong about Soothing being able to work as well as Rioting, that’s a strike against him.)

Counterpoint 2: Breeze doesn’t use dark manipulation. (Because there’s nothing morally wrong with adjusting emotions, whatsoever.) Yes, Breeze doesn’t use threat, for the most part, or anything more questionable, and he considers emotional alomancy no different from a set of powerful teeth (false!) or a charismatic personality (which he doesn’t have). Yes, I’ll give Breeze half a morality point for that. Half a morality point doesn’t make him a good manipulator, though.

So, why do I say Breeze isn’t a good manipulator? Because Breeze uses the equivalent of whacking nails to get people to agree with him. He tells people to do things, and expects them to do it. Like with Spook, for example. Or, he’ll subtly nudge you to the point where you agree with him. Now, is this manipulation? Yes. It achieves it goals. But it’s not good manipulation. Because, it doesn’t last and isn’t flexible. Why do you think people like Bilg happened? Because of Breeze’s incompetence.

So, what’s real manipulation? Real manipulation isn’t changing people’s emotions, or riling them up, or playing mental games until they give up and do what you want (cough Ham cough). Real manipulation is changing the way people think. This is achieved through behavior reinforcement, false information, propaganda. Someone’s who is a capable manipulator will change how you think and view things. This can be done by sparking emotions. This can be done through the spread of information. Or, through social interactions. Painting yourself in a different light. Breeze doesn’t do these things at all. Kelsier does a lot of them, but Breeze does nearly none, and he’s scared of his power, to an extent, which could be why he doesn’t do that.

Why post this? Two reasons. One, because I don’t think Breeze is that good of a manipulator, and I want to hear opinions. Two, because I thought about this, realized it brought up points on manipulation that everyone should know, and decided that would kill two birds with one coin.

So, read through this and tell me what you think. Please, disagree. And, secretly wonder if I'm attempting to manipulate you to do so. Or, actually I'm trying to get you to not argue. Heh.

[Spoolofwhool]

I disagree overall. Breeze was a manipulator. The difference is that he operated on a much different scope than what your definition encompasses. He was never a revolutionary like Kelsier or Elend. He just wanted a comfortable life, and being there, was willing to help his friends achieve their goals. He did that in more ways than they knew, such as soothing away fear so they would remain steadfast, artificial. I don't see how that isn't manipulation, since as you say, he was changing their thinking, how they viewed things. If he had let their fear rise, then they would've had far less hopeful thoughts. Also, Allrianne wasn't a good manipulator. She just applied a lot of rioting to him. Even if you can say that Breeze wasn't a manipulator, there is no doubt though that he could read people emotionally very effectively, probably far better than Kelsier or Elend. 

I'm curious as to how you reached the conclusion that he is afraid of using his powers. I never got that feeling from him. I just got more that he wasn't interested in anything past a comfortable life, and his use of his powers reflected that, in moving towards his goals, and helping his friends along the way.

I don't understand your Bilg example. That was on Kelsier. Breeze never had any chance of manipulating the man; he only used allomancy to make him more susceptible to Kelsier's orations. Are you saying then that Breeze failed in his use of allomancy? In that case I still don't agree since Breeze wasn't the only allomancer responsible for soothing the people during Kelsier's recruitment nor was the point of the allomancy to convince them; it was just to make them more prone to grasp aspects of the speech through feelings. Finally, your statement that Breeze convinced people feels very incorrect to me. As far as I recall, Kelsier did all the convincing, not Breeze, Breeze just supported, and basically did the same as if you gave people really good food during a speech so that they would think back to the speech when they try the taste again.

I'm tired and this is a ramble. I'll fix it in 20 hours.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[aeromancer]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I disagree overall. Breeze was a manipulator. ... He did that in more ways than they knew, such as soothing away fear so they would remain steadfast, artificial. I don't see how that isn't manipulation, since as you say, he was changing their thinking, how they viewed things... Even if you can say that Breeze wasn't a manipulator, there is no doubt though that he could read people emotionally very effectively, probably far better than Kelsier or Elend. 

I never said he wasn't. The quote I open with essentially says that everyone is a manipulator at some level. I'm simply saying that Breeze isn't the caliber of manipulator that should be required for this kind of job. I will agree that Breeze is an expert in reading emotions, though.

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I'm curious as to how you reached the conclusion that he is afraid of using his powers. I never got that feeling from him. I just got more that he wasn't interested in anything past a comfortable life, and his use of his powers reflected that, in moving towards his goals, and helping his friends along the way.

This is all but explicitly stated when he undergoes inner monologues about his fear of relationships. Breeze feels that his bonds formed are unnatural (because they are), and because of that, he's scared when he forms intense relationships.

Also, the 'comfortable life' things is proving my point. If you compare Breeze's work ethic, to say, Ham, it doesn't compare. Ham is hard-training mercenary who doesn't rely on his powers and thinks strategically through their use. Breeze uses his powers constantly, and only fails to use them when he absolutely doesn't need to.

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't understand your Bilg example. That was on Kelsier. Breeze never had any chance of manipulating the man; he only used allomancy to make him more susceptible to Kelsier's orations. Are you saying then that Breeze failed in his use of allomancy? In that case I still don't agree since Breeze wasn't the only allomancer responsible for soothing the people during Kelsier's recruitment nor was the point of the allomancy to convince them; it was just to make them more prone to grasp aspects of the speech through feelings. Finally, your statement that Breeze convinced people feels very incorrect to me. As far as I recall, Kelsier did all the convincing, not Breeze, Breeze just supported, and basically did the same as if you gave people really good food during a speech so that they would think back to the speech when they try the taste again.

True manipulation changes a person to your side of thinking. A master manipulator would never have cases like Bilg. Bilg is what happens when you emotionally charge a mob, and expect them to have the same psyche after the effects wear off. Kind of like feeding someone steak, and then feeding them gruel, but tell them to pretend it's steak. Master manipulators get you to think that gruel is better than steak, and only their particular gruel is real gruel, every other gruel is shredded steak pretending to be gruel.

I should have made this point clearer. Breeze is a manipulator. Just not a great one.

[Vissy]

Eh, that's more like a cult personality type of brainwashing than manipulation.

[aeromancer]

On 1/20/2017 at 2:47 AM, Rob Lucci said:

Eh, that's more like a cult personality type of brainwashing than manipulation.

That's manipulation as well.

More specifically, the 'cult personality' type of 'brainwashing' is a heavy-duty form of manipulation. 'Brainwashing' is a horribly unspecific term, but the way that most cult leaders do it, like Scientology or Peoples Temple is through manipulation of some sort. (Peoples Temple is the infamous 'Don't drink the Kool-Aid' cult, that was referenced to in the beginning of Firefight.) This manipulation heavily revolves around changing the subject's view of the user, as well as how he thinks to benefit the user. Now, you may say that Breeze isn't that type of person (because he's not, being a bad manipulator and all), which is true, but Kelsier is. A cult is precisely what Kelsier was trying to accomplish, what with his random visits to skaa, and spreading messages about how he was the Survivor and all. In case some people are wondering, yes, this is morally wrong for Kelsier to do, but a: Kelsier is a sociopath, and b: he was doing it to defeat a worse evil, so two wrongs make a right? Ends justify the means? Eh, I'm not judging him, I've already wrote a thread about that buried somewhere in the annals of the Shard.

Now, if you want to say manipulation is not that, and is only what Breeze used it for, i.e. besting someone in an exchange or getting them to do what you want in the short term, then, yes, Breeze is an expert manipulator. He's also worthless for a long-term rebellion. Breeze was brought on board to greatly influence the skaa population to wwant to rebel against the Lord Ruler, and he did a passable job. Certainly not a masterful job, though.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, aeromancer said:

Now, if you want to say manipulation is not that, and is only what Breeze used it for, i.e. besting someone in an exchange or getting them to do what you want in the short term, then, yes, Breeze is an expert manipulator. He's also worthless for a long-term rebellion. Breeze was brought on board to greatly influence the skaa population to wwant to rebel against the Lord Ruler, and he did a passable job. Certainly not a masterful job, though.

I think you're underselling what he achieved immensely. He managed to change the mindset of a people which had been downbeaten for centuries, whose every previous rebellion attempt had ended with utter defeat, and which was constantly being depressed with allomancy. That he managed to make it so that Kelsier could convince the number that he did is impressive. You make it sound like a master manipulator could've somehow magically turned the entire skaa population against TLR, and I disagree. A feat of that magnitude would be impossible in all honesty. Raising the army that he did was impressive. 

Also, I'm going to go back and change my earlier response. I do think that Breeze is an excellent manipulator. He can read people very well and can apply the precise amounts of changes to move them in a direction they wouldn't normally without them realizing. While he doesn't do big changes, which by all accounts seems to be what you would do, the small stuff he does do doesn't undercut his ability. Neither does his unwillingness to use his power. Besides, without Breeze manipulating them, chances are good the team would've given up long before they reached their goal. 

We're not saying that manipulation isn't how you defined it, but rather that the scope of your definition is too limited. 

[aeromancer]

6 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I think you're underselling what he achieved immensely. He managed to change the mindset of a people which had been downbeaten for centuries, whose every previous rebellion attempt had ended with utter defeat, and which was constantly being depressed with allomancy. That he managed to make it so that Kelsier could convince the number that he did is impressive.

No. I'm not going to agree with this unless you have proof. Kelsier is the one that built the legend around himself, and the crew has conversations about reeling him in. Now, Breeze claims that his emotional allomancy 'sticks' with the people he influence, but we have only his word to back him up, and, even if he did, so what? Breeze's plan was never to influence the skaa population on the scale that Kelsier's plan was, so at best, Breeze was manipulated by Kelsier to be a better manipulator.

12 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Besides, without Breeze manipulating them, chances are good the team would've given up long before they reached their goal.

Okay, right, because Breeze was the one who came up with the plan, and had the burning desire to kill the Lord Ruler. As previously stated, Kelsier can do everything that Breeze could do, plus Riot plus charisma plus an actual plan. They team just needed Breeze for the manpower. Yes, Breeze can read emotions really well, he's probably the best person on Scandrial who can read emotions. But just being able to read emotions doesn't make you a good manipulator.

9 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

We're not saying that manipulation isn't how you defined it, but rather that the scope of your definition is too limited. 

No. I'm including whatever you say into 'manipulation', and then some more like 'mass population effects', 'long term manipulation', and 'altering thought process'. If you want to tell me that I'm expanding manipulation too much, that's fine, I've already answered that point.

16 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

You make it sound like a master manipulator could've somehow magically turned the entire skaa population against TLR, and I disagree. A feat of that magnitude would be impossible in all honesty.

Kelsier did it.

Kelsier did it by founding a cult centered around him and embedding himself as a mythical figure within the skaa community and having OreSeur imitate him to give the impression that he is still out there. I would include that within the scope of my definition of 'manipulation'.

[Vissy]

Emotional allomancy influences the emotions of others; it essentially causes the corresponding changes in their brain chemistry to occur so that they will feel a certain way. When this happens often, the bodies will learn it as a new norm.

[Toaster Retribution]

First off, Bilg isn´t entirely on Breeze. It wasn´t Breeze who suggested the plan of soothing the population: that was Kelsier. I dont think many, if any, Soothers could have made a lasting change on everyone. Bilg was pretty stubborn, and he was chilling in random caves against super-high odds. It is no wonder the guy started to make a nuisance out of himself. Instead of thinking about the few dissenters, you should think about the majority who stayed and fought. 

Second, Breeze is not really that scared of his powers. He is scared of creating bonds between himself and women with it, but using it otherwise poses zero problems to him. He even speaks about how it is morally right to Soothe people all the time. 

He also manipulated Cett into coming to Luthadel. Granted, Cett knew pretty much what Breeze was doing, but he missed the fact that the Atium was a lie. Breeze also has the scene were he fools the Citizen into thinking that he got his feelings Soothed. I dont know if it counts as manipulation or not, but the "bring-in-Cett-to-stall-Straff" idea came from Breeze as well, and it worked out. 

I agree that Kelsier was the better manipulator though, but Kelsier is special. He was made to lead people, and to con the ones he didn´t lead (or con the ones he led, he did that too). Breeze is not a bad manipulator though. I dont remember if Kelsier ever stated that Breeze was a good manipulator, but if he did, that is another point in Breeze´s favor. Kell, as a great manipulator, would recognize another one when he saw him.

When it comes to the rest of your manipulators, TLR basically got where he wanted because he had great power and no one knew how to kill him. 

Elend changed stuff for a time, but that was partially thanks to influence from the guys who had killed TLR, partially because he tried to give the majority of the people (the Skaa) what they wanted and partially because he was the highest ranking guy in the area. And even then it didn´t hold under pressure. The fact that he became Emperor was entirely on Vin, who forced the other leaders into acknowledging him.   

The Citizen was pretty smart though, I give you that, but Breeze casually manipulated him (short-term, yes, but he did). 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Chull #445

[aeromancer]

40 minutes ago, Chull #445 said:

First off, Bilg isn´t entirely on Breeze. It wasn´t Breeze who suggested the plan of soothing the population: that was Kelsier. I dont think many, if any, Soothers could have made a lasting change on everyone.

Yeah. That's the point. Soothing isn't everything when it comes to manipulation. The question is: If Bilg was going to be belligerent against the rebellion, why would we sign up to something he didn't know anything about? Answer: Short-term manipulation.

42 minutes ago, Chull #445 said:

Breeze is not a bad manipulator though. I dont remember if Kelsier ever stated that Breeze was a good manipulator, but if he did, that is another point in Breeze´s favor. Kell, as a great manipulator, would recognize another one when he saw him.

 Never said he wasn't. I have stated, oh probably five or six times, that Breeze is a good manipulator. The question is: Is Breeze a great one, as his reputation suggests, and my answer is 'No.'

44 minutes ago, Chull #445 said:

He also manipulated Cett into coming to Luthadel. Granted, Cett knew pretty much what Breeze was doing, but he missed the fact that the Atium was a lie. Breeze also has the scene were he fools the Citizen into thinking that he got his feelings Soothed. I dont know if it counts as manipulation or not, but the "bring-in-Cett-to-stall-Straff" idea came from Breeze as well, and it worked out. 

Forgot about Cett, that's a point to your favor. Mind you, one point, it could be the exception to the general rule.

Breeze interacted with the Citizen? I do not recall that. I'll have to look that up and get back you.

[Toaster Retribution]

@aeromancer I still say that Bilg was more on Kelsier. It was his idea: Breeze only did what he was told.

Breeze and The Citizen interact just when Sazeds party arrives in Utreau in HoA. It is before they encounter Spook, I think. During the meeting, Quellion feels Breeze touch on his emotions, and warns his friends about him. Breeze responds by fooling Quellion into thinking that he wanted to be revealed. Accoording to Sazed, Quellion will then spend the entire meeting wondering if his words are controlled by Breeze. It is page 246 in the Gollancz edition.

[aeromancer]

Nice trick. Vin does a similar thing to Straff the first time they meet in WoA.

So, here's the thing with Bilg. How did Kelsier handle Bilg? He had the man humiliated and beaten while re-affirming his mythical status and virtually guaranteeing no more dissidents. Excellent move, Kelsier. Way to, as he puts it, 'lie to your own people'. That's manipulation, and great manipulation off a potential threat.

How would Breeze handle that situation? Do you think he could achieve the same results? I don't. Like I've said, Breeze is good - but not great.