Piety

[Full Metal Rithmatist]

It has been generally theorised that Ishar has turned against if not all the other heralds then at least against Honor and the oathpact.

Given Ishars trait of Piety and his order the Bondsmiths evidently bonding "god"spren i think this alone would make him VERY likely to turn against honor for one very good reason.

 

Honor is dead. Ishar needs a god to worship and has decided a dead god isnt good enough and in the rosharan system there is only 2 others who could fill that void in his soul.

 

Odium and Cultivation.

Anyone familliar with the lore of the warhammer 40k universe should know of the Primarch Lorgar who had a similar religous need. and when the emperor refused to allow Lorgar to worship him as a god Lorgar instead turned to worshipping darker gods.

 

So with honor being dead, it seems quite logical that Ishar would maybe turn to Odium.

There is some holes in this as Honor was eivdently killed sometime after Ishar started acting suspiciously.

[+robardin he/him]

Ishar is the initiator of the breaking of the Oathpact, as seen in the Prologue to WoK (Jezrien to Kalak: "Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough"). And as seen in Edgedancer in Arcanum Unbounded, 

Spoiler

Nalan (Darkness) says that his hunting down of nascent Radiants is a "mission" that Ishar told him to do, to prevent another Desolation. And that Ishar told him - quite falsely - that the Voidbringers are not returned courtesy of a new storm: "Ishar has promised it, and he will not lie".

 

So it seems clear that Ishar is the Betrayer (of the Oathpact).

Meanwhile, summoning an Honorblade requires "ten heartbeats", just like a human summoning a bonded deadspren Shardblade does, something which "is primarily something of the dead", as Syl explains. Probably because Honor is dead (Splintered).

Those Blades are formed of "dead" spren bonded to Radiants who abandoned their oaths after summoning them in Blade form, and that's just what 9 out of 10 Heralds did to their god in the Prologue. And Honor was Splintered AFTER the Oathpact was broken, after (narrowly?) managing to fend of Odium in multiple prior Desolations. Probably because of the Oathpact's breaking.

So, I don't think Ishar is "turning on Honor" as a result of the Splintering of Honor, it's the other way around (breaking the Oathpact likely led to it). I think it's that Ishar was (is) all about "I'm never going back to Damnation again, ever, ever, ever". (And isn't there a WoB that simply states, "All the Heralds are (now) insane."?)

There is something special about the Heralds themselves, though, as what happens to their Honorblades is the reverse of what happens to a (non-Radiant) human bonded with a (deadspren) Shardblade. If not already present, the Shardblade appears next to the body of the slain wielder, unbonded, while the Honorblade (like Taln's) disappears with the Herald.

You mentioned Dalinar bonding to a "godspren" as a Bondsmith - he certainly received visions of the Almighty imploring him to "lead them, unite them" - sent by "the memory" of Honor in the Stormfather. Does that mean Bondsmiths used to bond directly with Honor before his Splintering? What other "godspren" are there left now?

 

[Spoolofwhool]

28 minutes ago, robardin said:

Meanwhile, summoning an Honorblade requires "ten heartbeats", just like a human summoning a bonded deadspren Shardblade does, something which "is primarily something of the dead", as Syl explains. Probably because Honor is dead (Splintered).

Ten heartbeats was required for Szeth because he thought it was necessary. If he hadn't, he could've summoned his honorblade instantly. The limitation was entirely cognitive for him, not due to the mechanisms of the blade.

30 minutes ago, robardin said:

And Honor was Splintered AFTER the Oathpact was broken, after (narrowly?) managing to fend of Odium in multiple prior Desolations. Probably because of the Oathpact's breaking.

The Heralds abandoning the Oathpact had a tangential effect at best on the shattering of Honor. It's fairly safe to say it had no effect, especially since the shattering occurred centuries after the Final Desolation.

32 minutes ago, robardin said:

(And isn't there a WoB that simply states, "All the Heralds are (now) insane."?)

Quote

CCQ

Did Ishar intentionally deceive Nalan or does Ishar have bad info that he passed on?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes and no. All of the heralds are insane.

CCQ

So I clarified the question to being did Ishar know that he was lying to Nalan

BRANDON SANDERSON

got a RAFO but he added something that seemed to mean that Ishar could perhaps see the future and that each insanity was unique and that uniqueness played a part in the info. Not really sure on the last part.

[Source]

 

[+robardin he/him]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

Ten heartbeats was required for Szeth because he thought it was necessary. If he hadn't, he could've summoned his honorblade instantly. The limitation was entirely cognitive for him, not due to the mechanisms of the blade.

The Heralds abandoning the Oathpact had a tangential effect at best on the shattering of Honor. It's fairly safe to say it had no effect, especially since the shattering occurred centuries after the Final Desolation.

That's an interesting thing to say about Szeth's summoning the Honorblade - after all Shallan has the same mental block at some point, doesn't he? So it's definitely possible.

But is that your opinion, or is there some WoB somewhere indicating that? I don't think it's in the book text, and without digging out the books, I seem to recall Nalan also having to wait for his (Honor)blade while going after Lift in WoR. It's not explicit, since it's from Lift's POV and not his own, but he clearly puts his hand out to summon it to kill her with, and she has time to exchange words with him before it "drops into his hand" the way a deadspren Shardblade does (as opposed to what happens when Kaladin or Shallan summon their living Shardblades, which appear "in place" quickly enough to kill with even when the thrusting motion begins just as the Blade is summoned).

I suppose it could have been for dramatic purposes, though it seems a bit out of character for Nalan to "pause for effect" before killing someone.

As for the breaking (abandoning) of the Oathpact - do you really think it's a coincidence that after resisting what were apparently numerous attacks from Odium (if that's what the Desolations were, in some way), that Honor was Shattered in between Desolations after it was broken, AND the Recreance? When the nature of both acts were breaking with honor, with both the lower and uppercase H? I'm not saying it was a direct effect, but I've always felt it was clearly a factor, and have yet to read something indicating otherwise.

(Of course that's one of the reasons why I'm here on this board - to find out if I've missed something :))

 

[Spoolofwhool]

21 minutes ago, robardin said:

That's an interesting thing to say about Szeth's summoning the Honorblade - after all Shallan has the same mental block at some point, doesn't he? So it's definitely possible.

But is that your opinion, or is there some WoB somewhere indicating that? I don't think it's in the book text, and without digging out the books, I seem to recall Nalan also having to wait for his (Honor)blade while going after Lift in WoR. It's not explicit, since it's from Lift's POV and not his own, but he clearly puts his hand out to summon it to kill her with, and she has time to exchange words with him before it "drops into his hand" the way a deadspren Shardblade does (as opposed to what happens when Kaladin or Shallan summon their living Shardblades, which appear "in place" quickly enough to kill with even when the thrusting motion begins just as the Blade is summoned).

I suppose it could have been for dramatic purposes, though it seems a bit out of character for Nalan to "pause for effect" before killing someone.

As for the breaking (abandoning) of the Oathpact - do you really think it's a coincidence that after resisting what were apparently numerous attacks from Odium (if that's what the Desolations were, in some way), that Honor was Shattered in between Desolations after it was broken, AND the Recreance? When the nature of both acts were breaking with honor, with both the lower and uppercase H? I'm not saying it was a direct effect, but I've always felt it was clearly a factor, and have yet to read something indicating otherwise.

(Of course that's one of the reasons why I'm here on this board - to find out if I've missed something :))

My opinion is that the Recreance caused Honor to be shattered, yet in a sense you could link that to the Heralds because without them to guide the KRs, is what caused the KRs to self-destruct in that manner. However, that is due simply to the Heralds not being around, not because they turned their backs on the Oathpact.

All the points I commented about have WoBs corroborating them. 

The ten heartbeats and Szeth's Honorblades seems to have an implied response that Honorblades don't need ten heartbeats. The Oathpact and Honor's shattering is explicitly said.

Quote

MACROS

Based on what we know currently about the ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember, the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don’t you read and find out what’s going on there, but remember, the characters’ perception is very important.

MACROS

So then that’s why at one point Shallan requires ten heartbeats and now she doesn’t.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Right, just like—it’s the exact same reason why Kaladin’s forehead wounds don’t heal, because he views himself as need—as having those, somewhere deep inside of him, and that can’t heal until that goes away. And it’s the same reason why in Warbreaker, when you bring something to life your intention, rather than really what you say, is what matters. It’s all about perception.

[Source]

Quote

WETLANDER

Was Odium able to Splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related... but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no.

WETLANDER

Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, indeed.

[Source]

 

Edited December 22, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[The One Who Connects he/him]

21 minutes ago, robardin said:

But is that your opinion, or is there some WoB somewhere indicating that?

Here (Spoilered for size)

Spoiler

Based on what we know currently about the ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember, the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don’t you read and find out what’s going on there, but remember, the characters’ perception is very important.

macros

So then that’s why at one point Shallan requires ten heartbeats and now she doesn’t.

Brandon Sanderson

Right, just like—it’s the exact same reason why Kaladin’s forehead wounds don’t heal, because he views himself as need—as having those, somewhere deep inside of him, and that can’t heal until that goes away. And it’s the same reason why in Warbreaker, when you bring something to life your intention, rather than really what you say, is what matters. It’s all about perception.

21 minutes ago, robardin said:

As for the breaking (abandoning) of the Oathpact - do you really think it's a coincidence that after resisting what were apparently numerous attacks from Odium (if that's what the Desolations were, in some way), that Honor was Shattered in between Desolations after it was broken, AND the Recreance?

Oathpact, Are you implying the Recreance is related to Honor splintering?

Quote

Was Odium able to Splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related... but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no.

---

21 minutes ago, robardin said:

I seem to recall Nalan also having to wait for his (Honor)blade while going after Lift in WoR.

People have theorized that it was a dead sprenblade, that his insanity has made him forget, even that he was distracted by finally having caught his quarry

Edit: Aaaand Spool ninja'd me

Edited December 22, 2016 by The One Who Connects

[+robardin he/him]

Yeah, I've always mentally linked the Recreance to the breaking of the Oathpact - like Ishar telling them "guys, it's all over, go home", but in far more dramatic terms that caused them to "kill' their spren en masse. Just a suspicion, which has grown stronger with reading in Edgedancer that

Spoiler

Nalan's search-and-destroy mission for new KRs was commissioned by Ishar

.

Thanks for the WoB links again, Spool, there's just so much to read in the Theoryland archives, even though I've skimmed them all at some point, my reading most of them predate me reading the Stormlight Archives. I guess I should go back and try to digest them again.

 

Edited December 22, 2016 by robardin
spoilering Edgedancer reveal

[+robardin he/him]

So, I pulled up the scene I referred to in WoR where Lift talks to Darkness before he gets his Blade to kill her (is it crazy that I have many of Sanderson's books in both my preferred physical hardcover form, and in Kindle form that I can read on my phone or tablet devices at any time?) - 

Quote

Darkness knelt next to her. He held out his hand.

"I saved him," Lift said. "I did something good, didn't I?"

"Goodness is irrelevant," Darkness said. His Shardblade dropped into his fingers.

So unless his heart rate had been really high, the pause is only long enough for an exchange of two or three short sentences.

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

27 minutes ago, robardin said:

Quote

Darkness knelt next to her. He held out his hand.

"I saved him," Lift said. "I did something good, didn't I?"

"Goodness is irrelevant," Darkness said. His Shardblade dropped into his fingers.

So unless his heart rate had been really high, the pause is only long enough for an exchange of two or three short sentences.

It's hard for me to imagine that snippet of conversation taking more than 8 seconds, even if Nalan speaks calmly and slowly.

For the purpose of the honorblade summoning comment, I think Nalan waited to respond to what Lift said, just as he allowed Ym to get a line in before his death.

[galendo]

32 minutes ago, robardin said:

So, I pulled up the scene I referred to in WoR where Lift talks to Darkness before he gets his Blade to kill her (is it crazy that I have many of Sanderson's books in both my preferred physical hardcover form, and in Kindle form that I can read on my phone or tablet devices at any time?) - 

So unless his heart rate had been really high, the pause is only long enough for an exchange of two or three short sentences.

 

He could have started the summoning earlier, though.  The blade comes in on heartbeat ten, but you can still act normally in the meantime, so without knowing exactly when he started the summoning, we can't really say that there wasn't enough time for him to bring out a Blade.

[+robardin he/him]

Right, a "ten heartbeat" summoner is used to the delay, and would probably have practiced to "summon first, and hold out hand to receive the Blade only at the last heartbeat or two", for the coolness factor if nothing else.  In fact we see Adolin, Sadeas, and Amaram doing just that, summoning and dismissing their Blades repeatedly just for kicks like playing with a yo-yo.

But why would Nalan have it in his head to wait ten heartbeats? Szeth maybe, but a Herald? Probably not.

 

Edited December 22, 2016 by robardin

[+robardin he/him]

So yeah: Nalan doesn't really need ten seconds to summon his (Honor)blade, and Szeth and Shallan just thought they did.

Which means Honorblades are not "dead like the Oathpact is" the way deadspren Shardblades are with respect to their original Knight having broken their oaths.