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Taravangian and the Diagram


KasA97

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I posted this on r/stormlight_archive, but I also want to see what you guys have to say.

So does Taravangian not know about what is happening with the Parshendi? It seems that if he truly wanted to save everyone from what's happening he would've sent Szeth to kill the Parshendi leadership (Eshonai, her sister, etc) to prevent them from discovering stormform and calling the Everstorm. Several possibilities exist.

  1. He was not able to predict that the Parshendi would discover forms of power (during his hyper-intellengence state). This seems unlikely because he knew the Everstorm would come and new that parshmen would be the change. Also, he was able to predict the emergence of the Knights Radiant. I don't see why he could not have predicted the forms of power given the preponderance of evidence. 

    If he had just killed off all the important Parshendi and they never discovered stormform, there would be no Everstorm or anything. There would be no need for all this convoluted nonsense of killing world leaders and becoming king of the world to survive. I realize there isn't a guarantee that stormform wouldn't be discovered, but Taraganvian didn't even try. 

  2. He did predict the Everstorm, and he wanted it to occur for whatever reason. He had the opportunity to prevent it and willingly chose not to. Maybe become in the long run it provides some unforeseen opportunity.

 

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First of all, I don't think he was able to predict the actions of the Listeners, for a few logical reasons. First of all, while the existence of the ancient forms of power was known to him, the motivations and actions of the Listeners was likely something he was unable to probably predict. Consider, they are a fairly distinct race with very different thought patterns. Unlike for most of the other details regarding the rulers which he predicted, they were very unknown. No lifetime of records surrounding them, or deep understanding of their culture. I don't think Gavilar ever truly got to know much of them, perhaps he was even unaware of how they governed themselves. As such, it seems unlikely that Taravangian could've ever hoped to predict to them enough to stop them. In addition, I believe that the coming of the True Desolation was, in a sense, a fixed event. Preventing the Listeners from assuming Stormform might've slowed it coming, but don't forget that the Listeners are only a part of the Voidbringers, and that the Unmade would've still been active, along with whatever else consisted the ranks of the Voidbringers. As such, stopping the Listeners would've been nearly a waste of time, considering the time that could've been spent elsewhere in order to buffer the coming, and inevitable, Desolation. 

Secondly, it is possible that Taravangian needed the Everstorm, but I doubt it. He wanted to save people. If stopping the Everstorm would've prevented the entire Desolation, which I doubt, he probably would've tried to stop it. 

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I don't think it's necessary to have a complete and deep understanding of Parshendi culture to predict this. He was able to foresee the reemergence of the Knights Radiant. This means he knows the voidbringers are coming back, and he also knows how. Even if he didn't know about the listener forms, how they worked, and their ability to call the Everstorm (despite him possessing a lot of lost knowledge about the desolations and the KR), he DID know the Parshendi would have a crucial role in it. He knew they would transform.  He didn't even try to weaken the Parshendi at all. Their existence is known, their importance is know, their location is known.

A theory as to why he may need the Everstorm has to do with the cycle of Desolations and Odium. Potentially the desolation (termed the Final Desolation) needs to happen to defeat Odium once and for all.

Another theory is that a shard maybe influencing the Diagram. What Taravangian perceives as a fit of pure intelligence may actually have been influenced by a shard (maybe Cultivation, maybe Odium).

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I'm personally of the opinion that Taravangian got the curse and blessing backwards.

As someone who suffers from it, Taravangian has the symptoms of mania/bipolar. The feeling of extraordinary intelligence and the need to get it out RIGHT NOW are exactly what I experience when I have an attack. In one bad case, I even wrote my ideas out on the wall the same way he did. However, quite often my "great thoughts" during my attacks are dead wrong. When other people look at them, or when I look at them later, they usually contain a number of fatal flaws that I missed because I was going too fast.

The lack of compassion is another symptom of mania that he matches exactly. I've had times when I had no compassion left in me, only the drive from the mania. I've wanted to hit people I love, and I was just barely able to stop myself. Furthermore, I know people with worse cases than mine that have beaten people in their worst cases. Basically, I've had to have treatment to really understand that compassion and intelligence are not inverse to each other.

PS: Don't worry, I'm well treated for my disorder nowadays, and that sort of stuff doesn't happen to me anymore.

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2 hours ago, KasA97 said:

I don't think it's necessary to have a complete and deep understanding of Parshendi culture to predict this. He was able to foresee the reemergence of the Knights Radiant. This means he knows the voidbringers are coming back, and he also knows how. Even if he didn't know about the listener forms, how they worked, and their ability to call the Everstorm (despite him possessing a lot of lost knowledge about the desolations and the KR), he DID know the Parshendi would have a crucial role in it. He knew they would transform.  He didn't even try to weaken the Parshendi at all. Their existence is known, their importance is know, their location is known.

On no, he definitely predicted that the Listeners were going to take on the forms of power and call the Everstorm, I have no doubt about that. The point I was making was against your argument that he could've ordered Szeth to assassinate the Parshendi leadership in order to prevent that. He couldn't have known how their society was structured, so would've been reduced to just ordering Szeth to go to the Shattered Plain and kill all the Parshendi, or at least to go there and find people who look important and kill them. Even then, as I pointed out, that wouldn't have stopped the True Desolation, which means that ordering Szeth to instead consolidate power in order to help people survive was a smarter decision, in my opinion. So what you're proposing would've slowed the coming of the True Desolation, while allowing preparation to not occur, instead of allowing it to come, and preparing for it. 

2 hours ago, KasA97 said:

A theory as to why he may need the Everstorm has to do with the cycle of Desolations and Odium. Potentially the desolation (termed the Final Desolation) needs to happen to defeat Odium once and for all.

The Final Desolation was the one which occurred 4500 years ago when the Heralds walked away from the Oathpact. The one upcoming in the present is the True Desolation. If he actually had a way of stopping it, I'm fairly certain that he would've. He doesn't, which is why he is consolidating everyone so that he can pool their resources and at least enable a fraction of humanity to survive.

 

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4 hours ago, KasA97 said:

If he had just killed off all the important Parshendi and they never discovered stormform, there would be no Everstorm or anything.

This part here, I .. almost believe. There was another revelation recently (which I cannot find while wading through reddit) relating to the Mr T. not wanting the Parshendi to attain a Radiant bond. The "it will form a bridge" passage.

If he killed off the minds working towards Stormform, they may have reached a "Radiant-form" first, thus screwing up several pages of the Diagram and the Overall Plan.

Edit: Speaking of bridges, didn't the Parshendi grab Stormform in response to Kal having Radiant powers? Had they refrained for crossing that bridge and became Radiant allies, who knows how the world may have changed.

Edited by The One Who Connects
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On December 19, 2016 at 10:04 AM, KasA97 said:

I posted this on r/stormlight_archive, but I also want to see what you guys have to say.

So does Taravangian not know about what is happening with the Parshendi? It seems that if he truly wanted to save everyone from what's happening he would've sent Szeth to kill the Parshendi leadership (Eshonai, her sister, etc) to prevent them from discovering stormform and calling the Everstorm. Several possibilities exist.

 

Do we know the source of the diagram?  Are we sure it isn't a Ruin kind of thing, where some behind-the-scenes actor is intentionally manipulating a character of power... With partial or mostly-truths?

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49 minutes ago, djammmer said:

Do we know the source of the diagram?  

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Are we sure it isn't a Ruin kind of thing, where some behind-the-scenes actor is intentionally manipulating a character of power... With partial or mostly-truths?

 

Brandon described him as actually attaining a level of heightened intelligence, so he was definitely extremely smart when he made it, not that it was some actually spiritual prophetic power. It's possible that something could've connected to his mind and made him inclined towards a specific path over a few others, but I doubt it personally. I have no doubt that at its root the Diagram was written by Taravangian using logical probabilistic analysis to determine what would happen, but the idea of outside interference is not impossible.

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Don't forget though that Ruin manipulating things the way he did is a nature of Ruin, so other shards might not be able to do it as easily.

 

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On 12/20/2016 at 1:18 PM, djammmer said:

Do we know the source of the diagram?  Mistborn Spoilers

Spoiler

Are we sure it isn't a Ruin kind of thing, where some behind-the-scenes actor is intentionally manipulating a character of power... With partial or mostly-truths?

Source

Quote
Can Odium change written word on Roshar like Ruin could on Scadrial? (I was wondering this because it would make it easy for him to manipulate Mr.T that way.

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehensive* This is not really a thing that Odium does. Um, yea.

 

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On ‎20‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 8:11 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

Brandon described him as actually attaining a level of heightened intelligence, so he was definitely extremely smart when he made it...

I this from a WoB, or just from WoR? If it was from a WoB, could you link it? Im currently in the "the Diagram was authored by Cultivation" camp, and such a WoB would blow that theory out of the water...

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38 minutes ago, Krandacth said:

I this from a WoB, or just from WoR? If it was from a WoB, could you link it? Im currently in the "the Diagram was authored by Cultivation" camp, and such a WoB would blow that theory out of the water...

Actual WoB describing what happened to him as increases in multiple types of intelligence simultaneously, which has solidly set me in the camp of "The Diagram was made using logical probability predicition" though I was there alreary. I'm still open to the idea though that there was outside tampering.

The WoB 

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Actual WoB describing what happened to him as increases in multiple types of intelligence simultaneously...

Interesting. The conspiracy theorist in me would like to point out that that WoB starts of by generalizing the case he's talking about to "what happens to Taravangian". So, when he remembers being clever, he is clever. But he doesn't remember that day. He assumes he was clever, because of what he produced and how he can be. That WoB doesn't state that he was actually clever on that day :P

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3 hours ago, Krandacth said:

Interesting. The conspiracy theorist in me would like to point out that that WoB starts of by generalizing the case he's talking about to "what happens to Taravangian". So, when he remembers being clever, he is clever. But he doesn't remember that day. He assumes he was clever, because of what he produced and how he can be. That WoB doesn't state that he was actually clever on that day :P

Possibly, except the question and answer were both directed towards the day of the Diagram with generalization to his other days, so I'm going to just assume it's word choice. In any case, you cannot deny that a lot of support has shifted to the theory that he did logically calculate the Diagram.

2 hours ago, AnanasSpren said:

I believe Mr. T foresaw that the Ever storm was inevitable, at least that's the vibe I'm getting

Yes, that's my thought as well. The fact that both Dalinar's visions and the death rattles indicated that the Everstorm was coming, and that the latter hasn't been wrong so far, indicates that the chances are pretty strong that the occurrence of the Everstorm was inevitable. So trying to stop it would've been futile, and preparing for its coming would've been a better plan.

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On December 23, 2016 at 6:14 AM, Krandacth said:

Interesting. The conspiracy theorist in me would like to point out that that WoB starts of by generalizing the case he's talking about to "what happens to Taravangian". So, when he remembers being clever, he is clever. But he doesn't remember that day. He assumes he was clever, because of what he produced and how he can be. That WoB doesn't state that he was actually clever on that day :P

Love this. Thanks.

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A few thoughts on this topic.. Remember in the diagram its says for him to push the Alethi to destory the Parshendi outright.. Using logic we can extrapolate a few things. Number one he knows the Parshendi are directly envolved with the everstorm.   Getting rid of the Parshendi would solve a lot of problems pre-everstorm because no Parshendi=no everstorm the diagram seems to know this.  Also sending Szeth to take care of the Parshendi leaders would not have worked.. the reason it wouldn't have worked is because he has some detailed knowledge of who and what the Unmade are,  and he knows that the unmade would have simply started influencing another Parshendi if Eshonai's sister would have died before the everstorm could be summoned.  Anyway those are just a couple of thoughts I had on the subject.

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