Shqueeves he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 From what I understand, there is no ceiling for how fast an attribute can be tapped. Because of this, some very interesting things can happen. Steel feruchemy stores speed. if one were able to store enough speed and tap it fast enough, they could, theoretically, go faster than the speed of light. As of yet, it is unknown what would happen if this was broken, but I know if a few theories: Time travel and leaving the universe(parallel universe) Storing enough speed to do this would be incredibly difficult, as feruchemical attributes give diminishing returns the faster it is tapped. A solution to this would be to have a bunch of unkeyed steelminds filled by a lot of people and then used really quickly by one person What do you people of the 17th shard think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 Steel feruchemy doesn't protect you from friction. You would burn up well before you reached a meaningful speed relative to the speed of light. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droughtbringer Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 6 minutes ago, Shqueeves said: From what I understand, there is no ceiling for how fast an attribute can be tapped. Because of this, some very interesting things can happen. Steel feruchemy stores speed. if one were able to store enough speed and tap it fast enough, they could, theoretically, go faster than the speed of light. As of yet, it is unknown what would happen if this was broken, but I know if a few theories: Time travel and leaving the universe(parallel universe) Storing enough speed to do this would be incredibly difficult, as feruchemical attributes give diminishing returns the faster it is tapped. A solution to this would be to have a bunch of unkeyed steelminds filled by a lot of people and then used really quickly by one person What do you people of the 17th shard think? Interesting idea...but Science-y: Spoiler Lets look at what stops an object from reaching light speed: As an object starts going faster, and faster it starts getting more and more heavy. At high speeds the increase in energy starts to make objects more massive. (Stated twice...I don't know which makes more sense) so once you reach a speed very close to the speed of light the above means that as you try to move faster you literally just start weighing more. So as you increase your steel charges being tapped I would imagine that the extra charges would act a lot like an energy source being applied to an object at near light speeds.... So conclusion: probably not. Also Spool has a point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeromancer he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 (edited) Asked this at a signing about three years ago. No. It's impossible to Steelrun FTL, I had WoB confirming this. See here. The rule of thumb is that Feruchemy cannot be used to break the laws of physics. Also, without going into detail, being able to go FTL by definition excludes the ability to go backwards in time by going FTL. EDIT: Also, I've spoken out against Spool's point. Friction would kill you, but Steelrunning doesn't require acceleration, it just dumps the speed on you. Also, friction wouldn't kill you. The nuclear blast would. Edited December 13, 2016 by aeromancer 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 13 minutes ago, aeromancer said: Asked this at a signing about three years ago. No. It's impossible to Steelrun FTL, I had WoB confirming this. See here. The rule of thumb is that Feruchemy cannot be used to break the laws of physics. Also, without going into detail, being able to go FTL by definition excludes the ability to go backwards in time by going FTL. EDIT: Also, I've spoken out against Spool's point. Friction would kill you, but Steelrunning doesn't require acceleration, it just dumps the speed on you. Also, friction wouldn't kill you. The nuclear blast would. Infinite upvotes for referencing that What If. BTW, Iron Feruchemy breaks laws of physics by itself... (perpetuum mobile generating both energy and Investiture) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shqueeves he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 17 minutes ago, aeromancer said: Asked this at a signing about three years ago. No. It's impossible to Steelrun FTL, I had WoB confirming this. See here. The rule of thumb is that Feruchemy cannot be used to break the laws of physics. Also, without going into detail, being able to go FTL by definition excludes the ability to go backwards in time by going FTL. EDIT: Also, I've spoken out against Spool's point. Friction would kill you, but Steelrunning doesn't require acceleration, it just dumps the speed on you. Also, friction wouldn't kill you. The nuclear blast would. First off, that was way interesting Second, if physics can't be broken, can this be done with feruchemy? (It is physically possible) Since iron feruchemy stores mass (from what I understand), could an iron compounder increase their mass to the point that they become a black hole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Shqueeves said: Since iron feruchemy stores mass (from what I understand), could an iron compounder increase their mass to the point that they become a black hole? I really doubt they could achieve all the needed charge...but if also they manage to do it. It would simply be an elaborate way to suicide, you will become a black hole, you will die for the pressure or problably for the first atom that hit yourself and you will stop to be so heavy. Edited December 13, 2016 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeromancer he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 21 minutes ago, Shqueeves said: Since iron feruchemy stores mass (from what I understand), could an iron compounder increase their mass to the point that they become a black hole? Yes. At least, I have yet to see anything against this. I was going to calculate the amount of lashings Kaladin would need to do to accomplish a black hole, But I stopped at "a lot". The amount of weight you'd need to create a Feruchemic black hole, at a very rough guess on my part something to the degree of 10^30 times a normal body weight. That a 1 followed by thirty zeroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 8 minutes ago, aeromancer said: Yes. At least, I have yet to see anything against this. I was going to calculate the amount of lashings Kaladin would need to do to accomplish a black hole, But I stopped at "a lot". The amount of weight you'd need to create a Feruchemic black hole, at a very rough guess on my part something to the degree of 10^30 times a normal body weight. That a 1 followed by thirty zeroes. If we assume that the mass is eventually spread throughout the feruchemist and we take the Schwartzchild Radius to be 0.25 m (the feruchemist is in a ball shape), then the mass of the feruchemist would have to a bit over 1.68E26 kg in order to collapse into a singularity. I'm not sure if it would be a stable black hole or not. I doubt it would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyperson Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 How about decreasing weight to the extent that you are near-weightless? The ironmind alone would weigh you down, right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedal he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 11 minutes ago, bleeder said: How about decreasing weight to the extent that you are near-weightless? The ironmind alone would weigh you down, right? I think the thing is that it is not your actual weight that is decreased, but the Spiritual belief of your weight on Scandrial. So I don't know about being about metalminds weighing you down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 11 minutes ago, Jedal said: I think the thing is that it is not your actual weight that is decreased, but the Spiritual belief of your weight on Scandrial. So I don't know about being about metalminds weighing you down. Iron feruchemy is changing your physical mass, which results in a decrease in weight. Acceleration due to gravity is the same. This is why Wax speeds up when he stores more mass because of the law of conservation of momentum. 26 minutes ago, bleeder said: How about decreasing weight to the extent that you are near-weightless? The ironmind alone would weigh you down, right? It's possible. Ironminds and clothes would still weigh you done of course. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedal he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 23 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: Iron feruchemy is changing your physical mass, which results in a decrease in weight. Acceleration due to gravity is the same. This is why Wax speeds up when he stores more mass because of the law of conservation of momentum. It's possible. Ironminds and clothes would still weigh you done of course. I think I understand the discrepancy. When I read BoM and Spoiler Khriss asked Wax to find out about whether iron Feruchemy was Spiritual or from physics I assumed that it was Spiritual. But I see that you think it from physics. So, yes, operating based on the fact that physics is what operates it, then clothes and Ironminds would weigh you down. With Spiritual laws applied, though, I think that clothes would not weigh you down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shqueeves he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 14 minutes ago, Jedal said: I think I understand the discrepancy. When I read BoM and Hide contents Khriss asked Wax to find out about whether iron Feruchemy was Spiritual or from physics I assumed that it was Spiritual. But I see that you think it from physics. So, yes, operating based on the fact that physics is what operates it, then clothes and Ironminds would weigh you down. With Spiritual laws applied, though, I think that clothes would not weigh you down. In the books, it is mentioned several times that Wax is being held down because of the weight of his clothes and guns 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedal he/him Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 9 minutes ago, Shqueeves said: In the books, it is mentioned several times that Wax is being held down because of the weight of his clothes and guns Ah, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 14, 2016 Report Share Posted December 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Jedal said: I think I understand the discrepancy. When I read BoM and Reveal hidden contents Khriss asked Wax to find out about whether iron Feruchemy was Spiritual or from physics I assumed that it was Spiritual. But I see that you think it from physics. So, yes, operating based on the fact that physics is what operates it, then clothes and Ironminds would weigh you down. With Spiritual laws applied, though, I think that clothes would not weigh you down. Also, in WoA, when Sazed went down the cliff, his clothes and metalminds weighted it down. Also, the spiritual weight shift wouldn't explain the increase in speed when he stored, nor the stabilization when he performs a steelpush. Finally, it has been confirmed by Brandon that it actually does deal more with mass than directly with weight, though physics does get a bit hazy there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedal he/him Posted December 14, 2016 Report Share Posted December 14, 2016 Just now, Spoolofwhool said: Also, in WoA, when Sazed went down the cliff, his clothes and metalminds weighted it down. Also, the spiritual weight shift wouldn't explain the increase in speed when he stored, nor the stabilization when he performs a steelpush. Finally, it has been confirmed by Brandon that it actually does deal more with mass than directly with weight, though physics does get a bit hazy there. Yeah, I'm thinking of the Spiritual lies applying to both Sazed and whatever he has touching his skin, something that would be "part of him" in the Cognitive. (I don't remember Shallan being naked, so I'm going to assume she was clothed.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 (edited) On 12/13/2016 at 6:01 PM, Spoolofwhool said: Also, in WoA, when Sazed went down the cliff, his clothes and metalminds weighted it down. Also, the spiritual weight shift wouldn't explain the increase in speed when he stored, nor the stabilization when he performs a steelpush. Finally, it has been confirmed by Brandon that it actually does deal more with mass than directly with weight, though physics does get a bit hazy there. For the best. If you try to get too "science-y" on these things, they always eventually break. We're probably best off saying that it changes the inherent "resistance to forces" that everything experiences and leave it at that. For instance, people have speculated that Steel Iron changes how the body interacts with the Higgs field. I won't go into details, but what would actually happen in the real world if that happened to somebody could be summed up as "instant, messy death," definitely for them, and maybe for a decent chunk of their surroundings. (Although it probably wouldn't be a nuclear explosion.) Our biology is stupidly sensitive to how the chemistry works, and tinkering with the Higgs field is like throwing a wrench at random into all of known chemistry. This is something that should just be handwaved. It's not purely spiritual or cognitive, but those other realms are almost certainly what keeps things hanging together. Edited December 16, 2016 by happyman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 (edited) 50 minutes ago, happyman said: For the best. If you try to get too "science-y" on these things, they always eventually break. We're probably best off saying that it changes the inherent "resistance to forces" that everything experiences and leave it at that. For instance, people have speculated that Steel changes how the body interacts with the Higgs field. I won't go into details, but what would actually happen in the real world if that happened to somebody could be summed up as "instant, messy death," definitely for them, and maybe for a decent chunk of their surroundings. (Although it probably wouldn't be a nuclear explosion.) Our biology is stupidly sensitive to how the chemistry works, and tinkering with the Higgs field is like throwing a wrench at random into all of known chemistry. This is something that should just be handwaved. It's not purely spiritual or cognitive, but those other realms are almost certainly what keeps things hanging together. You mean iron right? Steel feruchemy is physical speed. And yes, I am aware that we can't explain everything with science, especially the actual mechanics of how things are happening. However, we can more explain the results of the changes with science, to a fair degree. Edited December 16, 2016 by Spoolofwhool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 8 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: You mean iron right? Steel feruchemy is physical speed. And yes, I am aware that we can't explain everything with science, especially the actual mechanics of how things are happening. However, we can more explain the results of the changes with science, to a fair degree. What do you mean, steel? I said iron. And I agree, it mostly makes good sense, and people have gone pretty far down this path and managed to keep things sensible. It's just...I'm a physicist. I know how to actually do these calculations to high accuracy. Modern scientists are insanely good at measuring very small things---we measured gravitational waves, for crying out loud. "Small" doesn't begin to describe it. I just know that if I try to take all those tools and use them the way I was trained to, I will push them to the point that they will break. And I don't want to. I like the stories. So I guess this is kind of a downer, but I feel like we need to sometimes just relax and let it be fiction. If you push too hard, you start to see behind the curtain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 1 minute ago, happyman said: What do you mean, steel? I said iron. And I agree, it mostly makes good sense, and people have gone pretty far down this path and managed to keep things sensible. It's just...I'm a physicist. I know how to actually do these calculations to high accuracy. Modern scientists are insanely good at measuring very small things---we measured gravitational waves, for crying out loud. "Small" doesn't begin to describe it. I just know that if I try to take all those tools and use them the way I was trained to, I will push them to the point that they will break. And I don't want to. I like the stories. So I guess this is kind of a downer, but I feel like we need to sometimes just relax and let it be fiction. If you push too hard, you start to see behind the curtain. Exactly. Brandon has tried to keep the magic intertwined with science as much as possible, while maintaining consistency, but at a certain you just have to go "screw it, the magic does stuff" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortankum Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 On 12/13/2016 at 4:36 PM, aeromancer said: Yes. At least, I have yet to see anything against this. I was going to calculate the amount of lashings Kaladin would need to do to accomplish a black hole, But I stopped at "a lot". The amount of weight you'd need to create a Feruchemic black hole, at a very rough guess on my part something to the degree of 10^30 times a normal body weight. That a 1 followed by thirty zeroes. Im pretty sure that Brandon has actually said that the metal mind would need to be absolutely gigantic to store enough weight, like the size of planets gigantic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eki Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 Feruchemical iron is weird, and one of the more hand-wavy parts of the physics-based magics in the Cosmere. You can increase your mass in order to break through a floor using gravity, but apparently your punches don't have more mass behind them... From a physics perspective, the two are the same. So it's kind of a mix between "real" mass and magical mass, somehow. tl;dr it's weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Eki said: Feruchemical iron is weird, and one of the more hand-wavy parts of the physics-based magics in the Cosmere. You can increase your mass in order to break through a floor using gravity, but apparently your punches don't have more mass behind them... From a physics perspective, the two are the same. So it's kind of a mix between "real" mass and magical mass, somehow. tl;dr it's weird. Also density doesn't change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eki Posted December 16, 2016 Report Share Posted December 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said: Also density doesn't change. I think we've discussed this before I would still argue that it's more correct to say that "the effects of density don't change" (though I'm not sure if that's always true) or something, since density isn't a fundamental property, it's just defined as mass divided by volume. The universe never "uses" density, it's pretty much just mass and how it is pushed. Density is a shorthand that's easy to plug into equations sometimes. But eh, I guess it doesn't really matter (!) how you say it, in the end. Magic messes with everything anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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