Realm of Thoughts Experiment

[emailanimal he/him]

This has probably been discussed before, but since we have nothing to do but twiddle our thumbs in expectation of November 2017, here we go.

 

My understanding of the Cognitive Realm, based on most recent WoBs is that essentially, objects in it are reflections of the thoughts (conscious or unconscious) of various inhabitants of Cosmere.  So, let's play a game with our friend, The Stick.

 

So, imagine The Stick lying on the beach of the Ocean of Origins, in a some remote place where people don't show up too often. Shallan passes by, sees the stick. Her thoughts mean that there is now a bead representing the Stick in Shadesmar, Roshar's Cognitive Realm. Shallan proceeds with her quest to discover ancient abandoned cities, eclipse Jasnah in scholarship, and marry a nice Kholin boy (not necessarily in that order). The Stick stays.  No more people come by the beach, and no more wildlife attend to it. The stick is buried in the sand, fish and various sea creatures do not see it, and the various lizard-crab things have retreated to their Sleepless owners in search of better targets to spy on. No one thinks about The Stick anymore, no one notices The Stick.

 Question: does this mean that at some point The Stick will fade away from Shadesmar?  Or is it more of a "once in Shadesmar, always in Shadesmar" kind of rule?

 

Similar question: if I think that there is a monster under my bed, does this mean that there is a bead for that monster in Shadesmar regardless of whether an actual monster is under my bed?

 

Finally. Let's say I am a farmer in Shonovar and there is a nice cherry tree in my orchard (I am assuming Shinovar has cherries, because if it does not, that's a total waste of a perfectly good planet). I like that tree. The orchard is fairly remote, no one goes there under normal circumstances, and all the chickens and bees are asleep when an unusually strong gust of a highstorm (or what passes for one in Shadesmar) tears the tree.  Now, I am still thinking of the tree as standing there, alive and kicking, when in fact, it just toppled. What is the state of the tree in Shadesmar? 

Alternatively, let's go full mode "consistency in distributed systems".  The kitchens on Azir just prepared a cake. About two hundred cooks and bureaucrats are aware of the cake, saw it prepared, decorated and left in the kitchen annex until the time to presented to the State Banquet.  Lift passes by the annex, sees the cake, eats it, because... well, why wouldn't she. Probabily calls Wyndle a Voidbringer a few times in the process.  Now, one person in the entire world knows that there is no cake, and it's been replaced by pure Investiture that is about to be used to slide frictionessly into the Banquet Hall and startle all the dignitaries. But 200 other people still think there is a cake and it is getting served.  What's is the state of the cake's bead in Shadesmar?

(PS. There is a cop-out here in that there are spren everywhere, and spren being everywhere may cause the state of objects in Shadesmar revert to the true state of the object in the physical realm... The spren basically resolving inconsistencies.)

Edited December 11, 2016 by emailanimal

[Jedal he/him]

I'm only gonna answer the last one, since I don't have much time.

In my eyes, the Cognitive realm naturally receives minimal changes from the Physical realm. That being said, the cake would most likely exist in the Cognitive realm until every person who believed that it existed knew it was eaten.

However, this is similar to the stick question. Shallan knows the stick exists. She may not think about it consciously, but in her memory, the stick still exists. That means that even if the stick were to be destroyed, it would still exist in the Cognitive realm until Shallan was made aware of its destruction.

[emailanimal he/him]

11 minutes ago, Jedal said:

I'm only gonna answer the last one, since I don't have much time.

In my eyes, the Cognitive realm naturally receives minimal changes from the Physical realm. That being said, the cake would most likely exist in the Cognitive realm until every person who believed that it existed knew it was eaten.

However, this is similar to the stick question. Shallan knows the stick exists. She may not think about it consciously, but in her memory, the stick still exists. That means that even if the stick were to be destroyed, it would still exist in the Cognitive realm until Shallan was made aware of its destruction.

Ok, let's suppose this is the case. Then how do we deal with the case when 100 people think the cake has "Happy Birthday" written on it in Azish, and another 100 people think it says "Chauta for the People" in Herdazian?  Two beads representing two cakes? Schroedinger's cake?

[Jedal he/him]

1 minute ago, emailanimal said:

Ok, let's suppose this is the case. Then how do we deal with the case when 100 people think the cake has "Happy Birthday" written on it in Azish, and another 100 people think it says "Chauta for the People" in Herdazian?  Two beads representing two cakes? Schroedinger's cake?

Well, let us assume there is a conflicting identity in a single bead. This would allow some inconsistency. I'm working along the principles that beads cannot be created unless a physical object is created. This could allow for discrepancies in thought, because I assume that the Cognitive realm explains and controls how our mind works. Are the people thinking of two different cakes? Or is it the same cake with different icing? Because if they know of a single cake, then only a minor part of the cake's identity would be changed. Schroedinger's cake seems to be most likely.

[manukos he/him]

this post, like the temporal bone  comes in 5 parts

1) let me say that i enjoyed this post immensely

2) shinovar seems like earth in almost every aspect so i would assume that it has cherry trees because they are beautiful as braize and like u said waste of a good planet 

3) i belive that there are no spren in shinovar nor highstorms/or remenants of highstorms (from what my waifu rysn has said) plus i dont think that if there were highstorms  there wouldnt be any soil or grass

4) to your questions now,  i think that you would have a cognitive Schrödinger tree , meaning that it would exist and not exist at the same time , until you go and check at least

5)now let pose my own question :
if someone went to a remote location and whilst blindfolded took something with a pair of tongs , put it in a bag and brought it to shalan , who then went to shadesmar . 
would she find the object ?

 

p.s. iknow that the last part is more convoluted than it should but why not ? DFTBA
 

[Jedal he/him]

4 minutes ago, harambe said:

5)now let pose my own question :
if someone went to a remote location and whilst blindfolded took something with a pair of tongs , put it in a bag and brought it to shalan , who then went to shadesmar . 
would she find the object ?
 

Yes. Due to the fact that both the person who placed it and the bag knows that it is there, Shallan would see it in the Cognitive Realm(everything is alive, remember?).

[manukos he/him]

4 minutes ago, Jedal said:

Yes. Due to the fact that both the person who placed it and the bag knows that it is there, Shallan would see it in the Cognitive Realm(everything is alive, remember?).

yes but nothing alive has ever perseived it . plus what if shalan  is un aware that someone has left it in her room or smt?

[Jedal he/him]

1 minute ago, harambe said:

yes but nothing alive has ever perseived it . plus what if shalan  is un aware that someone has left it in her room or smt?

It seems you have completely disregarded my previous post. EVERYTHING, is alive to some extent. A rock has a cognitive form, so why not a satchel? If the satchel knows where the tongs are, then it would be there in the Cognitive. Shallan herself does not need to be aware, only something alive does. EVERYTHING is alive. Therefore, Shallan's perception is unimportant. This applies for the original questions. In each one, the change is percieved by objects in the surrounding area, this would create a change in the Cognitive realm. This is barring my misinterpretation of the quote that everything is alive.

[emailanimal he/him]

1 hour ago, Jedal said:

It seems you have completely disregarded my previous post. EVERYTHING, is alive to some extent. A rock has a cognitive form, so why not a satchel? If the satchel knows where the tongs are, then it would be there in the Cognitive. Shallan herself does not need to be aware, only something alive does. EVERYTHING is alive. Therefore, Shallan's perception is unimportant. This applies for the original questions. In each one, the change is percieved by objects in the surrounding area, this would create a change in the Cognitive realm. This is barring my misinterpretation of the quote that everything is alive.

Not certain that I like it as an explanation - it is even more cop-out-ty (cop-out-ateaous?) than my proposed "spren are everywhere" cop-out. But I am happy to accept this is a plausible theory.

We still need to deal with the fact that Cognitive Realm is a realm of thought, not a realm of knowledge vs. belief.  Which is to say, it is not enough for a table to know what is written on the cake that is sitting on it to override the beliefs (expressed as thoughts) of 100 people who think something else is on the cake. You still get Schroedinger's cake, except the difference is that your theory of mass perception of inanimate objects by other inanimate objects guarantees that the true state of the item is one of the Schroedinger's states... 

[Blightsong he/him]

4 hours ago, Jedal said:

It seems you have completely disregarded my previous post. EVERYTHING, is alive to some extent. A rock has a cognitive form, so why not a satchel? If the satchel knows where the tongs are, then it would be there in the Cognitive. Shallan herself does not need to be aware, only something alive does. EVERYTHING is alive. Therefore, Shallan's perception is unimportant. This applies for the original questions. In each one, the change is percieved by objects in the surrounding area, this would create a change in the Cognitive realm. This is barring my misinterpretation of the quote that everything is alive.

I think you are a bit too all in on EVERYTHING being self aware in the cognitive realm. Brandon has said that it the gaps between inhabited shardworlds in the cognitive realm are basically non-existent, and that the space and matter present between the shardworlds in the physical realm do not manifest, as no one has thought of them. This being the case suggests that not everything has an inherent cognitive presence, and definitely not enough of one to actively affect other cognitive entities. It may be that all things in the Cosmere have some cognitive presence (although it would have to be the cognitive equivalent of microscopic), and that they are all alive, but even if this correct, I think you are overestimating the amount of sentience that these entities would possess. There is simply no way that a satchel would be able to know what it contained, or even have the sentience to perceive what is around it, on its own.

 

My theory is that changing something's perception of what it is is causationally related to how invested it is, as well as how invested you are. I think that normal every day thinking and perception uses  some kind of cognitive substance or energy we don't know about yet to slowly match something's Cognitive self to your perception of it. In an old archived forum post about Liars of Partinel I managed to find, Brandon goes on a tangent about how the book relates to Dragonsteel and mentions that Realmatic theory, the Dragonsteel magic system called microkenesis, and something called Cognitive Ripples would all still be canon. I think that the Cognitive ripples he mentions are this energy that thoughts and perceptions manifest as, and that the more sentient a being is, the more powerful its ripples/influence. One thing that I think is an example of this is the waves of influence that Kelsier sees Ruin emitting while he is trapped inside of the Well. Kelsier rides these waves and observes that Ruin is using them to manipulate and influence different things.

 

Something else to note, there is a tangible difference in the effects of thinking things and knowing things in the Cognitive Realm. In the interlude that features the ardent scholars we learn that actually measuring things out and knowing something for certain has a very powerful effect on Cognitive entities. In that example, we see that a flame Spren's height stops changing if it is measure, and gets locked into the measured shape.

 

Now to answer the questions with my personal theories:

1. I'm not sure, but I think that the Stick would remain whatever it was thought of as by Shallan. It would remain locked in that form under the same principles that locked the flame Spren into its measured height.

2. I don't think that a monster would be present under the bed in the Cognitive realm. You do not know that there is a monster so one does not form. I do think that there is something more to this, however, and that it relates to the nature of Spren.

3. I think that your assumption that the tree is still standing is outweighed by the creatures living in and seeing the tree knowing that it has toppled. Also keep in mind that the tree itself is probably more self aware than an inanimate object because it is alive, so it probabaly recognizes on some level that it has toppled.

4. Again, that one person's factual knowledge that the cake is gone most likely outweighs people's false assumptions that it is still there.

[emailanimal he/him]

2 hours ago, Blightsong said:

In an old archived forum post about Liars of Partinel I managed to find

this happened:

Quote

Tzai Blows

Now, I have to wonder....

 

[Blightsong he/him]

10 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

this happened:

Now, I have to wonder....

 

From what I can gather, Tzai Blows are apart of microkenesis.

[emailanimal he/him]

2 hours ago, Blightsong said:

3. I think that your assumption that the tree is still standing is outweighed by the creatures living in and seeing the tree knowing that it has toppled. Also keep in mind that the tree itself is probably more self aware than an inanimate object because it is alive, so it probabaly recognizes on some level that it has toppled.

How about we try the same thing with an inanimate object that no living creature observes when it changes its state?

I think I am happier to agree with you on the top part of your response than with @Jedal. In fact, I came up with these questions after thinking about precisely the same things: lack of representation for parts of Cosmere in between inhabited worlds. 

I also like you citing the ardent experiments Interlude. I should've thought a bit more about it - and with each reread this Interlude keeps growing on me. Now, the difference between what I am asking and the spren observations, is that Observation makes the form of the spren in Physical Realm fixed.  It is not clear what it does to the Cognitive Realm version of the spren, because in the Cognitive Realm as fire spren does not necessarily possess the features that were observed and measured. 

 

So, there are multiple theories here already. One is that everything is self-aware not just in Cognitive Realm, but in Physical too.  You are rebutting this one. Your theory is that (a) observations in Physical Realm shape the form of the bead in Shadesmar and (b) those observations must be conducted by living beings (possibly including spren?).  I like your theory more on purely aesthetic grounds (and because it actually explains Cognitive Realm without space between worlds better). 

I am still not certain though, that knowledge of the Physical state of the object changes its Cognitive state. On the other hand, changing a state of an object because A LOT of people believe in it also is a bit dangerous.  I'd like an explanation that involves some sort of decay factor. E.g., Stick slowly fading away as Shallan's memories of it fade. (Now, Shallan is a bad example, she has perfect recall, but imagine it is Gaz, and not Shallan).

[emailanimal he/him]

1 minute ago, Blightsong said:

 

14 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

this happened:

Now, I have to wonder....

 

From what I can gather, Tzai Blows are apart of microkenisis

 

Which brings up the next obvious question....

[Blightsong he/him]

5 hours ago, emailanimal said:

How about we try the same thing with an inanimate object that no living creature observes when it changes its state?

I think I am happier to agree with you on the top part of your response than with @Jedal. In fact, I came up with these questions after thinking about precisely the same things: lack of representation for parts of Cosmere in between inhabited worlds. 

I also like you citing the ardent experiments Interlude. I should've thought a bit more about it - and with each reread this Interlude keeps growing on me. Now, the difference between what I am asking and the spren observations, is that Observation makes the form of the spren in Physical Realm fixed.  It is not clear what it does to the Cognitive Realm version of the spren, because in the Cognitive Realm as fire spren does not necessarily possess the features that were observed and measured. 

 

So, there are multiple theories here already. One is that everything is self-aware not just in Cognitive Realm, but in Physical too.  You are rebutting this one. Your theory is that (a) observations in Physical Realm shape the form of the bead in Shadesmar and (b) those observations must be conducted by living beings (possibly including spren?).  I like your theory more on purely aesthetic grounds (and because it actually explains Cognitive Realm without space between worlds better). 

I am still not certain though, that knowledge of the Physical state of the object changes its Cognitive state. On the other hand, changing a state of an object because A LOT of people believe in it also is a bit dangerous.  I'd like an explanation that involves some sort of decay factor. E.g., Stick slowly fading away as Shallan's memories of it fade. (Now, Shallan is a bad example, she has perfect recall, but imagine it is Gaz, and not Shallan).

It's simple to deduce that the measurement of a spren's physical form affects its Cognitive self. Since there is no actual physical reaction between the spren and the measurer it must be a cognitive interaction. Besides, what is the Cognitive realm if not the refelction of how the physical realm is perceived and understood.

[Knight Oblivion]

When it comes to objects in the cognitive realm, the two most definitive works we have on it are The Emperor's Soul and SH. As revealed in the former, each object has a sense of self which is the sum of how it has been perceived by more invested beings (all life basically with sapient beings being most impactful due to the innate investiture needed for sapience) and the history of physical interactions with it. This is the basis of Forgery as the art uses investiture to convince an object that its history is different to enact a physical change (as an aside, Soulcasting apparently involves having the strength of will and investiture to force an object to change its cognitive identity, often by changing the material). 

 

Now consider Kelsier's time in Scadrial's sub-astral of the Cognitive Realm. Essentially everything is there as it would be in the Physical Realm with the exception of the inverse of fluids/solids. If an object could have a different cognitive aspect based upon some individuals having a different interpretation of it, then books would be stupidly noticeable as many people have different ideas about the contents of books (South Park had a great episode making fun of this). Now maybe the sub-astrals of the Cognitive Realm have different mechanics but I would assume some kind of uniformity between them all relating to the amount of Cognitive identities an object has as it's a rather fundamental concept.

 

Now, my idea is that an object's Cognitive identity changes based upon an input of energy from one of the other two realms in conjunction with a cognative aspect. Using the cake example above, it doesn't really matter what a relative few people think of a temporary object because just thinking about the cake in such a limited fashion doesn't have enough energy to do much. Now, if a chef were to come by and decorate the cake more then we have physical and cognitive energy enacting a change. If said chef Soulcasts the cake to chull dung then you have spiritual (investiture) and cognitive energy enacting a change. 

 

Basically, cognitive acts impart significantly less energy than acts involving the other two realms. For spren, they're not really physical to begin with. They're more malleable than a stick because of that lack of physical substance and since they're representations of more abstract and general concepts. 

Edited December 13, 2016 by Knight Oblivion