What do you make of the new information about the cause of desolations?

[Spoolofwhool]

It could be part of the insidious nature of the Thrill, where it just feels natural to people despite it suddenly appearing so that they don't question it. 

[FiveLate]

I just found the part that made me believe that the thrill had been around longer.....at least that it was present during prior desolations.  I'm not sure how to add a highlighted quote from my kindle in here yet, so ill just describe it.  It is in what was described I believe as Dalinars 12th flashback....but the first detailed one we see, where he fights the midnight essences with the poker and experiences the Thrill.   When I first read WOK I thought he was seeing true visions of the past, and in my mind that connected the Thrill to the far past.  

I'm not sure what the current theory is on exactly how those visions worked, so I am not sure exactly how Dalimar Experiencing the Thrill during one would work either.  I seem too remember Taravangian (sp?) Stating that Molach was on the move and they could track his general location by the number of death rattles in a region.

Nergaoul also seems to have a limited range (if you call a country limited) of effect with the Thrill.  I had originally thought that the Thrill had developed because of the country of Alethela being the one country for war so that the other 9 might know peace.  This also made me think it had a much longer history of being around, was Neragaoul ever confirmed as the source of the Thrill?

[KidWayne he/him]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 5:49 AM, Shlee said:

.....maybe it's possible to make a new honorblade with your spren, a la nightblood style, by shoving investiture into it?  If Odium is seeking a way around the Oathpact, maybe it's constructed in such a way that if someone gains enough Investiture to "equal" a Herald, it would count.

Tinfoil hat: The Recreance was caused by a group of Radiants attempting to become Heralds - the thing of great eminence that required the Skybreakers' help in sorting innocent from guilty, and after dealing with the miscreants, the rest of the Radiants decided it was too much a danger to the planet to keep existing, except the silly Skybreakers who insisted that Honor had given them a mandate that they MUST follow at all costs......

I think you're on to something with the making of an Honorblade. If spren are the manifestation of ideas and each of the Heralds embodies an ideal, then is it too far out to think that Honorblades are manufactured spren (or splinters of Honor) that were fashioned after honorable ideas and then invested to the hilt? This would make good sense for how and why the Heralds could "bind" surges. +1

[KidWayne he/him]

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 0:32 PM, Zmann966 said:

Who knows? Maybe it's a simple fact of Odium is trapped like Ruin was, and the Desolations come when his well refills every thousand years or so... /shrug

I think you're on to something here. Remember that in Mistborn, someone had to go to the Well of Ascension and use the power. In order to free Ruin, the power had to be released instead of used. So if the Oathpact binds Odium and the voidspren similar to how Preservation bound Ruin, desolations are periodic episodes that result from the accumulation of Odium's investiture. However, in order to have an effect on Roshar, the Oathpact requires some sort of action be taken on the part of the Heralds (an attempt to escape torture perhaps?). This action releases Odium and the Heralds to act directly upon Roshar for a time. The Heralds are supposed to return to Roshar to defend it from Odium's onslaught. Once Odium is defeated, they are to return to their captivity to reset the ties that bind Odium. However, if they stay on Roshar for too long of a time, it fails to re-bind Odium and he remains free to attack Roshar once more. Presumably this cycle will continue until the Heralds abandon the Oathpact, or Odium slaughters everyone on Roshar (including the Heralds) before the Heralds' allotted time is up.

This seems pretty consistent to me.

NOTE: Sorry about the double post. These things just seemed way too different for the same post.

Edited December 12, 2016 by KidWayne

[ram433]

On 12/9/2016 at 10:28 AM, kari-no-sugata said:

Is a Perpendicularity needed on Braize though? Odium's forces there are spren. They shouldn't need to transfer to the Cognitive Realm in the first place.

Also, whether or not there's usable Perpendicularities on Braize or Roshar, would that make any difference to the actual leap between worlds itself?

On 12/9/2016 at 11:13 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

Yeah, they're spren and already in the cognitive realm mostly. Also, perpendicularity don't have any affect on travel within the cognitive realm. They would still have to move from Braize's cognitive space to Roshar. 

I see the point about voidspren not needing a perpendicularity but maybe the Unmade do. We know some of them do things like the Thrill and deathrattle but that is not exactly ringwraith level shenanigans. Maybe right now they can only have limited physical influence from the Cognitive (like Kelsier could talk to or subtly influence certain people from the Cognitive Realm) but to create real mayhem they need a way to manifest physically like a Perpendicularity. I wonder for voidspren if it has to do with Connection. They are Connected to Braize so if they stray too far they fade until something about the Parshendi songs create Connection for them stay on Roshar. My only idea on how the Oathpact fits in is maybe the Oathpact interferes with the process for voidspren Connection and Unmade manifestation?

 

 

[Spoolofwhool]

40 minutes ago, ram433 said:

I see the point about voidspren not needing a perpendicularity but maybe the Unmade do. We know some of them do things like the Thrill and deathrattle but that is not exactly ringwraith level shenanigans. Maybe right now they can only have limited physical influence from the Cognitive (like Kelsier could talk to or subtly influence certain people from the Cognitive Realm) but to create real mayhem they need a way to manifest physically like a Perpendicularity. I wonder for voidspren if it has to do with Connection. They are Connected to Braize so if they stray too far they fade until something about the Parshendi songs create Connection for them stay on Roshar. My only idea on how the Oathpact fits in is maybe the Oathpact interferes with the process for voidspren Connection and Unmade manifestation?

The only problem with what you are proposing is that nothing that the Unmade are doing has a physical influence. Showing visions, and inducing a bloodlust, are cognitive and spiritual changes. In addition, physical manifestation doesn't mean that you can see them in the physical realm, it means that they actually have a physical body, like when spren are manifested physically as a shardblade. 

Mistborn: Secret History spoilers

Spoiler

I don't see how comparing Kelsier trying to influence people to the Unmade influencing people has any merit. Kelsier is just a human cognitive shadow which managed to cheat his way into staying around. In contrast, the Unmade are direct pieces of Odium's power granted sentience, and were possibly even designed with what they are doing in mind. 

 

[ram433]

Their lack of physical influence is sort of my point. They do subtle mental manipulations NOW but we don't know what their role in an actual Desolation was/will be. For them to be so well known you'd think it would have to be more than what we've seen so far. Maybe that difference is a presence in the Physical during Desolation but only the Cognitive otherwise. 

Spoiler

I draw a parallel to Kelsier because he was able to stick around by taking on a piece of Preservation's Investiture, both from the pool and from briefly holding the Shard. Beings existing only or mostly in the Cognitive have been shown to be able to do some mental manipulation on certain people is all I meant. 

 

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, ram433 said:

Their lack of physical influence is sort of my point. They do subtle mental manipulations NOW but we don't know what their role in an actual Desolation was/will be. For them to be so well known you'd think it would have to be more than what we've seen so far. Maybe that difference is a presence in the Physical during Desolation but only the Cognitive otherwise. 

  Reveal hidden contents

I draw a parallel to Kelsier because he was able to stick around by taking on a piece of Preservation's Investiture, both from the pool and from briefly holding the Shard. Beings existing only or mostly in the Cognitive have been shown to be able to do some mental manipulation on certain people is all I meant. 

 

I get what you're saying now. I thought that you were saying that they would need to be physically manifested to do what they're doing now, the Thrill and Death Rattles. My bad. I'm still going to disagree though. I don't think they're going to need to manifest in the physical realm act during the Devastation. My feeling is that they're going to bond to someone or something, and use that as a base to spread their power. So they are going to be able to affect the physical more directly, and we know they can since in a vision someone comments that one of the Unmade came and slaughtered a group of people, but it's not a physical manifestation of them, but more they'll link to something physical. I don't see a point in them actually manifesting physically as then a large portion of their power would have be to expended in order to create a physical body, whereas bonding to a physical entity would allow them to preserve a large scale of their power, in addition to following what appears to be a natural order of Roshar.

[Zmann966 he/him]

On 12/11/2016 at 1:25 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

The Desolations are definitely tied to the appearance of the Heralds. There's a WoB that if the Heralds remain on Roshar too long, then another Desolation would start immediately. I don't think the timer clock theory is correct as I believe that they didn't follow a set interval, and it had been implied that the 4500 has been because of the will of Taln.

I was joking when I said that, yeah. But one thing you'll learn about me is that I CAN argue a point, no matter how silly, lol.
Especially since we don't have specifics, who knows? Maybe the Heralds take up Odium's shardpool power amongst themselves (like Slivers do) in order to "use" it to prevent Odium from regaining his full power and leaving to wreck shop across the cosmere. Side-effect being that the Voidbringers make the jump from Braize and rust goes sideways on Roshar every thousand years or so, lol. That's some BS-level foreshadowing there, if the Mistborn trilogy was the foreshadowing for the Stormlight Archive, haha. (And yes I mean BS as "Brandon Sanderson" and the other meaning, lol)

I don't actually believe that that's the case... But I can always make an argument for the sake of discussion.

Sidenote: Do we know if Heralds always preceed the Desolation? Or if it's at the same time? Or if the Voidbringers start to show up first and that's what signifies the start of one?

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, Zmann966 said:

I was joking when I said that, yeah. But one thing you'll learn about me is that I CAN argue a point, no matter how silly, lol.
Especially since we don't have specifics, who knows? Maybe the Heralds take up Odium's shardpool power amongst themselves (like Slivers do) in order to "use" it to prevent Odium from regaining his full power and leaving to wreck shop across the cosmere. Side-effect being that the Voidbringers make the jump from Braize and rust goes sideways on Roshar every thousand years or so, lol. That's some BS-level foreshadowing there, if the Mistborn trilogy was the foreshadowing for the Stormlight Archive, haha. (And yes I mean BS as "Brandon Sanderson" and the other meaning, lol)

I don't actually believe that that's the case... But I can always make an argument for the sake of discussion.

Sidenote: Do we know if Heralds always preceed the Desolation? Or if it's at the same time? Or if the Voidbringers start to show up first and that's what signifies the start of one?

I don't think the Desolations were periodic events though. You could argue that the "period" is dependent on how well the Heralds hold the power, but then you're really just stretching definition of periodic.  

Based on what Taln was muttering to himself, and what Hoid said to him when he appeared, my opinion is that the Heralds arrive fairly early, at least several years, in order to prepare the people to face the Desolation. Taln did mention things like teaching them metalworking, so I imagine that there would've been a fair bit of time to prepare. 

[KidWayne he/him]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't think the Desolations were periodic events though. You could argue that the "period" is dependent on how well the Heralds hold the power, but then you're really just stretching definition of periodic.  

Based on what Taln was muttering to himself, and what Hoid said to him when he appeared, my opinion is that the Heralds arrive fairly early, at least several years, in order to prepare the people to face the Desolation. Taln did mention things like teaching them metalworking, so I imagine that there would've been a fair bit of time to prepare. 

Yeah, this has always bothered me too. If breaking under torture causes the Desolation, why would Odium give the heralds a headstart and allow them time to prepare the people of Roshar for war? However, the only sensible alternative to this (in my mind) is a periodic occurrence. So what does that leave as possible causes?

Perhaps Desolations begin after half of the heralds leave, and since Taln was the only herald in attendance this time he was able to trigger the Desolation by himself?

[Spoolofwhool]

26 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

Yeah, this has always bothered me too. If breaking under torture causes the Desolation, why would Odium give the heralds a headstart and allow them time to prepare the people of Roshar for war? However, the only sensible alternative to this (in my mind) is a periodic occurrence. So what does that leave as possible causes?

Perhaps Desolations begin after half of the heralds leave, and since Taln was the only herald in attendance this time he was able to trigger the Desolation by himself?

My current thoughts on the matter are that the Heralds, as cognitive shadows, abandon their physical bodies at the end of the Desolation and go to Braize in order to forestall Odium, perhaps interfering with his power. The "torture" is just a cognitive feedback as a result of them conflicting against Odium's power, divine hatred, directed towards them. When a Herald breaks is when they are unable to withstand Odium, so they flee, returning to Roshar, taking new physical bodies so that they can guide the people of Roshar once more in preparation for the Desolation. This is thought mainly as a result of the fact from Kalak's thoughts in the prelude to WoK where he laments that surviving the Desolation means that he has a choice in whether to go to the torture and a WoB that the Heralds have to leave Roshar else another Desolation is imminent, suggesting to me that they're leaving in order to forestall the Desolation.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Spoolofwhool