Question about Breath in objects

[sprtstr14]

It's been a year or so since I've read warbreaker. These might have been answered somewhere in the book, and my googling skills could be lacking also.

I have a few scenarios. If a rope was told to "hold things", and the person who invested the breath was killed, what would happen to the rope and the breath? Would the rope hold things for all eternity? Would the rope revert back to being a normal rope? Does the breath just disappear? Can someone else take in the breath?

In a similar scenario, what if the rope was destroyed? Does the breath return to the person that invested it, is the breath destroyed, is the breath just floating there for anyone to grab up, or is there another option?

My original thought was what would it take to turn Nightblood back into a normal sword, if it was even possible. Then I realized I was confused about breaths in general.

[Djarskublar]

So the deal is that Breath isn't eternal. That 'hold things' rope would eventually power down. After being killed, the Breath would remain in the rope. It would just be inaccessible to anyone without the same Identity as the original person.

I am not certain about the rope destruction. I believe there is a WoB that all the people with their Breath still in them just have their Breath become part of the dirt they decompose into. So it is theoretically possible to mine Breaths. Somehow...

I imagine it is possible to recall Breath from anything, you just have to have the same identity as the thing you are recalling from, so turning Nightblood back into something normal is essentially impossible.

[Yata]

As @Djarskublar said.

Just the rope will have the right amount of Breath to performe its Command, if you ruins its form it will became soon without the right number of Breath to performe its task with an alterated/damaged form

[Spoolofwhool]

Best I found was this:

Quote

LITTLE_WILSON

Mi'chelle is wanting to know for a fanfic she's wanting to write if when you cut/break an object that has been Awakened if the object then "dies", or if the pieces will try to carry out the command. Also, either way, can the breaths be recovered from it?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The object does not die, and will try to continue its purpose. The level of damage will determine just how well it can continue. The Breaths are recoverable. (Though there could be some loss of Breaths, depending on how the item is destroyed.) There's a scene near the end where Vasher Awakens some clothing, then it gets cut down and he recovers the Breath.

[Source]

Though I didn't look very hard.

My opinion is that when a living entity dies, or anything holding a breath becomes too damaged to hold the breath, it just dissipated and returns to the general ambient investiture of Nalthis, to be endowed onto the next person born. 

Turning Nightblood back into a normal sword would require someone with its awakener's identity, whom I'm guessing is Shashara. Since she's dead, it wouldn't be very likely. There is however the possibility of two other methods:

First, command breaking might do something in that regard. We don't know much about it, and all that we know that it can do is reassign lifeless commands. However, I'm thinking that advance applications could involve reassigning the awakener identity of an awakened object.

Mistborn Era 2 spoilers

Spoiler

We know that identityless feruchemist (currently storing all identity into a metalmind) can possibly tap any other metalmind, providing they have the appropriate power. As such, I imagine it might be possible for an identityless person to take breath from any awakened object, regardless of who invested the breath. This would be providing they are aware of how to manipulate biochroma. 

 

[Yata]

3 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Turning Nightblood back into a normal sword would require someone with its awakener's identity, whom I'm guessing is Shashara. Since she's dead, it wouldn't be very likely. There is however the possibility of two other methods:

I am unsure this is possible also with the original Awakener...Nightblood now is a being, it's no more "1000 Breath" is an actual being and you can't retrive Breath from others (like you can't retrive the Breath from a Lifeless)...The Breaths are their now, I don't actually now if there are still "1000 Breath" or something similar (but twisted) to a Divine Breath in Nightblood.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

I am unsure this is possible also with the original Awakener...Nightblood now is a being, it's no more "1000 Breath" is an actual being and you can't retrive Breath from others (like you can't retrive the Breath from a Lifeless)...The Breaths are their now, I don't actually now if there are still "1000 Breath" or something similar (but twisted) to a Divine Breath in Nightblood.

This is true, and something I was thinking about when I wrote my answer. The question is whether the "breath sticking to Lifeless" phenomenon is because they're biological bodies, or because its stuck to the remnant cognitive still attached to the body. I can see a fairly good case for the latter, since while the former is the argument they used, it wasn't a great one. In that case, yes, it would be fairly probable that Nightblood's breath cannot be repossessed in any case, since it has developed its own cognitive which holds onto it.

[Weltall]

4 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

So the deal is that Breath isn't eternal. That 'hold things' rope would eventually power down.

Do we have WoB on this? I've been curious on the issue of Breath permanence from another angle (after a certain point could you lose Heightenings as the health of your Breath degrades, for example) but I would imagine the effects are similar to a Mistborn system where there's a lower limit beyond which the investiture can't degrade (Era 2 spoilers)

 

Specifically, we know a hemalurgic spike that isn't in a body/surrounded by fresh blood will eventually degrade, but that there's some unspecified point where it won't degrade further and will always provide an effect. And we know some of these spikes have been used continuously for 1300+ years as of Era 2.

So do we know for certain that an Awakened object will 'run out' of the Breath used to awaken it?

4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

First, command breaking might do something in that regard. We don't know much about it, and all that we know that it can do is reassign lifeless commands. However, I'm thinking that advance applications could involve reassigning the awakener identity of an awakened object.

Mistborn Era 2 spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

We know that identityless feruchemist (currently storing all identity into a metalmind) can possibly tap any other metalmind, providing they have the appropriate power. As such, I imagine it might be possible for an identityless person to take breath from any awakened object, regardless of who invested the breath. This would be providing they are aware of how to manipulate biochroma. 

 

I don't think it would work that way. (Spoilers for Bands of Mourning)

 

Making yourself have zero Identity through Aluminum feruchemy allows you to create an unkeyed metalmind for any other feruchemical ability you have access to, which anyone else possessing that same power can use. You don't have to be a Trueself to use an unkeyed metalmind; Wayne was able to use just such a goldmind and he doesn't have access to feruchemical aluminum.

Basically, having no Identity =/= having anyone's Identity. We know you can rewrite your spiritweb in ways that play with identity (like stealing a feruchemical ability via hemalurgy and gaining access to their metalminds) but that's a bit more involved.

So I suspect that the only way to reclaim the Breaths that went into Nightblood (assuming this is even possible and they haven't 'stuck' in the way they do with a Lifeless... and I'm willing to bet they have) would be to somehow rewrite your spiritweb to 'be Shashara'. Which seems like it would be virtually impossible.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Weltall

[Djarskublar]

59 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Do we have WoB on this? I've been curious on the issue of Breath permanence from another angle (after a certain point could you lose Heightenings as the health of your Breath degrades, for example) but I would imagine the effects are similar to a Mistborn system where there's a lower limit beyond which the investiture can't degrade (Era 2 spoilers)

  Hide contents

Specifically, we know a hemalurgic spike that isn't in a body/surrounded by fresh blood will eventually degrade, but that there's some unspecified point where it won't degrade further and will always provide an effect. And we know some of these spikes have been used continuously for 1300+ years as of Era 2.

So do we know for certain that an Awakened object will 'run out' of the Breath used to awaken it?

I don't think it would work that way. (Spoilers for Bands of Mourning)

  Hide contents

Making yourself have zero Identity through Aluminum feruchemy allows you to create an unkeyed metalmind for any other feruchemical ability you have access to, which anyone else possessing that same power can use. You don't have to be a Trueself to use an unkeyed metalmind; Wayne was able to use just such a goldmind and he doesn't have access to feruchemical aluminum.

Basically, having no Identity =/= having anyone's Identity. We know you can rewrite your spiritweb in ways that play with identity (like stealing a feruchemical ability via hemalurgy and gaining access to their metalminds) but that's a bit more involved.

So I suspect that the only way to reclaim the Breaths that went into Nightblood (assuming this is even possible and they haven't 'stuck' in the way they do with a Lifeless... and I'm willing to bet they have) would be to somehow rewrite your spiritweb to 'be Shashara'. Which seems like it would be virtually impossible.

There is WoB on awakened objects degrading, but I'm on mobile so I feel too lazy to quote it.

For your point of needing to 'be Shashara,' I can say there is a large chance that won't work. I would say I'm certain, but I don't have proof, just circumstantial evidence. You can't recall Breath from Lifeless, probably due to the fact that normal awakening imprints part of your mind on the object, so it has the same identity as you, whereas awakening lifeless is closer to either restoring the soul of the dead to its body or implanting a new soul into the body. You have a different Identity, so you can't recall the Breath. The same should apply to Nightblood.

On the other hand, if you wrote your ID to 'be Nightblood' you might actually be able to do it. This is just headcanon though, but I can pull up related evidence of you want me to.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Do we have WoB on this? I've been curious on the issue of Breath permanence from another angle (after a certain point could you lose Heightenings as the health of your Breath degrades, for example) but I would imagine the effects are similar to a Mistborn system where there's a lower limit beyond which the investiture can't degrade (Era 2 spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

Specifically, we know a hemalurgic spike that isn't in a body/surrounded by fresh blood will eventually degrade, but that there's some unspecified point where it won't degrade further and will always provide an effect. And we know some of these spikes have been used continuously for 1300+ years as of Era 2.

So do we know for certain that an Awakened object will 'run out' of the Breath used to awaken it?

There's a WoB on the matter. I can't find it, but I remember that it involved a discussion on whether you could awaken an object to run a mechanical system forever, which you can't since the breath would eventually run out, though we weren't given a time frame on how long that would take.

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

I don't think it would work that way. (Spoilers for Bands of Mourning)

  Reveal hidden contents

Making yourself have zero Identity through Aluminum feruchemy allows you to create an unkeyed metalmind for any other feruchemical ability you have access to, which anyone else possessing that same power can use. You don't have to be a Trueself to use an unkeyed metalmind; Wayne was able to use just such a goldmind and he doesn't have access to feruchemical aluminum.

Basically, having no Identity =/= having anyone's Identity. We know you can rewrite your spiritweb in ways that play with identity (like stealing a feruchemical ability via hemalurgy and gaining access to their metalminds) but that's a bit more involved.

So I suspect that the only way to reclaim the Breaths that went into Nightblood (assuming this is even possible and they haven't 'stuck' in the way they do with a Lifeless... and I'm willing to bet they have) would be to somehow rewrite your spiritweb to 'be Shashara'. Which seems like it would be virtually impossible.

Nice thought. However (Mistborn Era 2 things)

Spoiler

If you read the part where VenDell is explaining the theory of the Bands of Mourning, after he explains Identity feruchemy and how identity pertains to feruchemy, Marasi ask him whether an identity-less feruchemist could then access other metalminds. He doesn't answer affirmative, but he doesn't reject it either and says that the experimentation that they've done is very encouraging on that regards, indicating to me that they've done it, or are very close to doing it. As such, I think it's very possible.  I can pull passage if need be, I know it's on the internet somewhere. I quoted it somewhere else on the forum. People empathize unkeyed metalminds more since it is more useful. 

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Weltall]

Ahh, so there is WoB on the 'Breath decay' subject. Thanks to both of you for clearing that up for me.