Recreance: What happened to the Radiants-in-Training

[+hwiles He/Him]

So, I was thinking, during Dalinar's vision of the Recreance, we see a bunch of full Radiants in shardplate abandoning their oaths.  But, we know that each order had some manner of hierarchy and means of training new Radiants; people didn't just bond a spren and instantly get their blade and plate, there's a whole oath swearing and personal growth process (and I wouldn't be surprised if the Dustbringers had some hazing rituals ).  Now, it's possible that at any given time there weren't that many trainee Radiants, but there still ought to have been some during the Recreance.  I guess for the sake of lack of evidence I'll assume that they chose to abandon their oaths as well...

So my musings basically amount to these:

1.  What happens to a spren that is betrayed before it assumes the form of a blade?  It seems like Syl was returned to the SR, but still remained somewhat conscious? Granted, it's unclear if Kaladin fully betrayed his oaths, since it wasn't exactly what he did that drove syl off, but what he said, felt, and intended.  The whole thing was really a big communication problem rather than an intentional betrayal.

2.  It would probably be tremendously easier to revive the "dead" shardblade of a trainee Radiant since their bond, being less complex, should be easier to duplicate/replace. (I'm looking at you Adolin!)  Still insanely difficult, but probably less technically complicated.

3.  Who the heck could possibly convince a bunch of trainee super-heroes to give up their powers?  (I don't actually expect an answer for this one, just wanted to underscore how screwed up the situation must have been for the Recreance to have happened in the first place.)

So thoughts?  

[Eki]

1. I'd guess it varies depending on how strong the bond is, and how much the oaths are betrayed. There's probably no one answer.

2. That might be true, but it's possible that once a spren is stuck in blade form, it's just as dead as any other, regardless of how strong the bond was before.

3. I think one of the epigraphs say that many Knights were killed by angry non-Radiants - it's unclear if those were killed before or after betraying their oaths. But I think this question applies to ALL Radiants, regardless of if they were fully trained or not. The Knights didn't just give up their oaths - they also killed their closest friend.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Eki said:

3. I think one of the epigraphs say that many Knights were killed by angry non-Radiants - it's unclear if those were killed before or after betraying their oaths. But I think this question applies to ALL Radiants, regardless of if they were fully trained or not. The Knights didn't just give up their oaths - they also killed their closest friend.

This one?

Quote

"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."

Seems to be saying that they were attacked after the betrayal; after they gave up their oaths. 

[Jondesu he/him]

My impression had been that if the bond hasn't developed to the point of a Shardblade being possible, the spren would simply return to the Cognitive Realm, but I realized that doesn't really line up with the fact that there are almost no spren still "alive" who were bonded at the time.  Something still catastrophic must happen to them, even if they're not stuck in blade form.  It also wouldn't make sense to me for them to be a blade, though, if they were never able to become one prior to the oaths being broken.  We might have to wait and see.

[Eki]

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Seems to be saying that they were attacked after the betrayal; after they gave up their oaths. 

Yeah, but in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance, Honor says that the ones Dalinar sees are just the first ones. I don't think the Recreance happened all at once, or that 100% of the Knights decided to break their oaths. But the quote does imply that it was the exact people who betrayed the oaths who were attacked - I remembered it as being more like "they assaulted Urithiru" or something. Which I now realize wouldn't even be possible, because the city is mostly inaccessible without a surgebinder.

 

1 minute ago, Jondesu said:

My impression had been that if the bond hasn't developed to the point of a Shardblade being possible, the spren would simply return to the Cognitive Realm, but I realized that doesn't really line up with the fact that there are almost no spren still "alive" who were bonded at the time.  Something still catastrophic must happen to them, even if they're not stuck in blade form.  It also wouldn't make sense to me for them to be a blade, though, if they were never able to become one prior to the oaths being broken.  We might have to wait and see.

Pattern didn't die completely after Shallan started lying to herself (which presumably is the same as breaking oaths for other orders), so I don't think being able to become a shardblade is the definite border for getting stuck in blade form.

[Ciridae]

Isn't it weird that the most 'honorable' order, the windrunners, were one of the first to abandon their oaths? 

[+hwiles He/Him]

1 hour ago, Ciridae said:

Isn't it weird that the most 'honorable' order, the windrunners, were one of the first to abandon their oaths? 

Not necessarily. We saw firsthand how easily Kaladin ended up in a situation where he had few if any viable honorable paths, leading him to temporarily break his bond. If they were maneuvered into the right circumstances and faced with the realization that nothing they could do with their powers would be honorable, the windrunners could be honor bound to lay down their arms and forsake their powers.