Cognitive Realm in Sel

[JUQ he/him]

There's a WoB somewhere about the Cognitive realm (which I refuse to call Shadesmar outside Roshar) being dangerous on Sel due to the nature of the magic there being different to magics on other worlds. My theory:

Both Shards are splintered, so the Dor has no Vessel guiding it. This means that the Dor attacks anyone who goes into the Cognitive realm.
Holes: What about Roshar? Cultivation seems largely apathetic, and I doubt Odium would do anything to help there. The Stormfather could be bleeding excess Investiture with the Highstorms, however.

[Spoolofwhool]

7 hours ago, JUQ said:

There's a WoB somewhere about the Cognitive realm (which I refuse to call Shadesmar outside Roshar) being dangerous on Sel due to the nature of the magic there being different to magics on other worlds. My theory:

Both Shards are splintered, so the Dor has no Vessel guiding it. This means that the Dor attacks anyone who goes into the Cognitive realm.
Holes: What about Roshar? Cultivation seems largely apathetic, and I doubt Odium would do anything to help there. The Stormfather could be bleeding excess Investiture with the Highstorms, however.

There is a WoB on the matter.

Quote

SUFFICIENTLYADVANCED

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

PHANTINE

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

WINDRUNNER17

This is an awesome answer!

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Thanks!

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The Seons and the Skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

Source

As you say, uncontrolled investiture is dangerous. In addition, the Dor is located within Shadesmar, so travel through the Selish region of Shadesmar is inhibited by it.

[The Sovereign]

39 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

There is a WoB on the matter.

As you say, uncontrolled investiture is dangerous. In addition, the Dor is located within Shadesmar, so travel through the Selish region of Shadesmar is inhibited by it.

To clarify this a little more; typically the bulk of a Shard's power is contained in the Spiritual Realm. Dominion and Devotion's powers have mixed and the majority of it (the Dor) exists in the Cognitive Realm. This is what is making travel to Sel through the Cognitive Realm difficult.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Iron Eyes

[JUQ he/him]

Ah right, thanks.

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

On November 2, 2016 at 8:52 AM, Iron Eyes said:

To clarify this a little more; typically the bulk of a Shard's power is contained in the Spiritual Realm. Dominion and Devotion's powers have mixed and the majority of it (the Dor) exists in the Cognitive Realm. This is what is making travel to Sel through the Cognitive Realm difficult.

If we think of the Dor as the creation/fusion of two godlike powers/shards via their loving relationship (i.e. new shard called Unity, which existed before Odium, and which Odium splintered), it makes sense why the Dor is creating such a mess now that Aona and Skai are dead.  Think about a relationship that ends badly in the real world - it's messy and can often be incredibly destructive (both to the people in the relationship and also to everyone around them)!

[The Sovereign]

12 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

If we think of the Dor as the creation/fusion of two godlike powers/shards via their loving relationship (i.e. new shard called Unity, which existed before Odium, and which Odium splintered), it makes sense why the Dor is creating such a mess now that Aona and Skai are dead.  Think about a relationship that ends badly in the real world - it's messy and can often be incredibly destructive (both to the people in the relationship and also to everyone around them)!

I think you are over thinking this, It seems much more likely to me that the Dor is just the result of so much Investiture being present without a Sentient mind to guide it. It is strongly suggested that the same would have happened with Preservation if Kelsier wasn't so stubborn about the being dead thing...

A couple of Relevent WoB:

 

Quote

 

Interview: 2013

Reddit 2013 (Non-WoT)

Kaladin_Stormblessed (March 2013)

Discussion of the week: Shadesmar & Truthspren

sufficientlyadvanced

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

Brandon Sanderson ()

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner17

This is an awesome answer!

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Thanks!

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The Seons and the Skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

Tags

shadesmar, spren, dor, odium, sel, stormlight archive, roshar, seons, skaze, Kelsier, Scadrial,

 

 

Quote

 

Interview: Mar 4th, 2014

WoR Signing Report - Leinton (Paraphrased)

Leinton

Would Returned still Return if Endowment died?

Brandon Sanderson

Magic in the cosmere needs a guiding force. If it doesn't have one, the magic itself will gain sentience. Or someone would pick it up. So yes, Returned would still come, but there would be something different based on who was guiding the power.

Tags

returned, endowment, investiture,

 

 

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

5 hours ago, Iron Eyes said:

I think you are over thinking this, It seems much more likely to me that the Dor is just the result of so much Investiture being present without a Sentient mind to guide it. It is strongly suggested that the same would have happened with Preservation if Kelsier wasn't so stubborn about the being dead thing...

It's possible that my views on the Dor are wrong, but sadly we won't know until we get more information out of Brandon.  I agree with you that the reason the Dor makes the Cognitive Realm so dangerous is because there isn't a sentient mind to control it.  I just believe the Dor was in the Cognitive Realm because two sentient minds put it there in the first place =) It worked nicely when under the control of two unified Vessels, however their deaths made it into the mess it has become.

I wonder if the reason Kelsier helped to prevent a similar probelm on Scadrial was because the investiture of a shard, without a Vessel to control it, leaks from the Spiritual Realm into the Cognitive Realm, where it becomes messy.  Granted, we don't really know what this investiture in the Cognitive Realm looks like, other than it makes worldhopping dangerous/impossible.

[Spoolofwhool]

37 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I wonder if the reason Kelsier helped to prevent a similar probelm on Scadrial was because the investiture of a shard, without a Vessel to control it, leaks from the Spiritual Realm into the Cognitive Realm, where it becomes messy.  Granted, we don't really know what this investiture in the Cognitive Realm looks like, other than it makes worldhopping dangerous/impossible.

My thoughts are that given time, an unheld shard would splinter similarly to how Odium splintered Honor, just given a longer time. The result would've been then something like Roshar, where a number of cognitive entities exist as a result of some measure of sentience taken by the fragments of power. The small fragment of each splinter which leaks into the Cognitive Realm develops into the cognitive aspect, with sentience. That last part is just a guess, but maybe in general, the extra innate investiture required for sentience and sapience is so that enough investiture leaks from the spiritual into the cognitive and develops the cognitive aspect. 

[Yata he/him]

Ruin was slowly Splintering Preservation. If Kelsier didn't pick up the Shard. Kelsier helped allowing the Shard to remain whole (as a counter example, I don't think nothing of really catastrophic would happened if Sazed at the end of the book chose to not become a god...well Scadrial was about to be destroyed but it's another problem).

I think that simply a Splintered Shard's CAN'T be in the Spiritual....The Spiritual Realm is the place of perfection (many times we have reference of "in the spiritual there is a perfect version of everything") and a Splintered shard simply...doesn't fit there.

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

11 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

My thoughts are that given time, an unheld shard would splinter similarly to how Odium splintered Honor, just given a longer time. The result would've been then something like Roshar, where a number of cognitive entities exist as a result of some measure of sentience taken by the fragments of power.

I agree.  Though aren't some of the spren on Roshar pre-Honor?  As though some of them were spren of the shattered Adonalsium beyond the 16 shards?

 

3 minutes ago, Yata said:

I think that simply a Splintered Shard's CAN'T be in the Spiritual....The Spiritual Realm is the place of perfection (many times we have reference of "in the spiritual there is a perfect version of everything") and a Splintered shard simply...doesn't fit there.

That's true.  I wonder why these 16 specific intents were attached to the shards.  It seems strange that "the perfect version of hatred" becomes a shard, while the "perfect version of peace" may not have (it may, we just don't know yet).  There's still so much we still don't know!

[Spoolofwhool]

3 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I agree.  Though aren't some of the spren on Roshar pre-Honor?  As though some of them were spren of the shattered Adonalsium beyond the 16 shards?

Yes, some of them were there before Honor and Cultivation, formed from ambient investiture remaining. 

 

[JUQ he/him]

10 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

how Odium splintered Honor

Eh what? I thought we didn't know how?

[Yata he/him]

18 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

That's true.  I wonder why these 16 specific intents were attached to the shards.  It seems strange that "the perfect version of hatred" becomes a shard, while the "perfect version of peace" may not have (it may, we just don't know yet).  There's still so much we still don't know!

I may just tell you my idea about this therefore it's not something from the books...The Original Vessels used each a concept they was strongly Connected (maybe was a Willing act, maybe automatic based on their own Spirit-web) to Pull out from Adonalsium shards of his power (this may be the cause of Adonalsium death, or maybe they did it post-mortem but I think post-mortem) and the power they removed (the Shards) become merged with those Spiritual concepts.....Again it's only my idea of the reason without any kind of canonic source about.

18 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Yes, some of them were there before Honor and Cultivation, formed from ambient investiture remaining. 

For a while I toyed with the idea of a great amount of Investiture lefted on Roshar by Adonalsium in his old times to make the whole weird ecosystem works...The "Spren generation" on Roshar would happen because the bound between Physical and Cognitive is weaker and the Mind may affect more easy the residue of Ambient Investiture (one day I have to write down completely my Roshar-Theory...but now I have no time).

Anyway if I have right and on Roshar there is an huge amount of Investiture pre-shattering....May we still call it "ambient Investiture remaining" ?

[Spoolofwhool]

9 hours ago, JUQ said:

Eh what? I thought we didn't know how?

I'm referring to end result, not the actual mechanics which cause the splintering. My poor wording. 

1 hour ago, Yata said:

I may just tell you my idea about this therefore it's not something from the books...The Original Vessels used each a concept they was strongly Connected (maybe was a Willing act, maybe automatic based on their own Spirit-web) to Pull out from Adonalsium shards of his power (this may be the cause of Adonalsium death, or maybe they did it post-mortem but I think post-mortem) and the power they removed (the Shards) become merged with those Spiritual concepts.....Again it's only my idea of the reason without any kind of canonic source about.

For a while I toyed with the idea of a great amount of Investiture lefted on Roshar by Adonalsium in his old times to make the whole weird ecosystem works...The "Spren generation" on Roshar would happen because the bound between Physical and Cognitive is weaker and the Mind may affect more easy the residue of Ambient Investiture (one day I have to write down completely my Roshar-Theory...but now I have no time).

Anyway if I have right and on Roshar there is an huge amount of Investiture pre-shattering....May we still call it "ambient Investiture remaining" ?

That's a good theory about the connection, but then it seems less likely when we hear about Hoid's account that Ati was a good man, yet he still drew Ruin. I suppose he could've had an unconscious desire for Ruin though.

I used ambient investiture because that it somewhat how Brandon referred to the power. 

[Yata he/him]

28 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

That's a good theory about the connection, but then it seems less likely when we hear about Hoid's account that Ati was a good man, yet he still drew Ruin. I suppose he could've had an unconscious desire for Ruin though.

I used ambient investiture because that it somewhat how Brandon referred to the power. 

Ruin isn't actually "evil" maybe Ati was a good, nice and fatalistic person or He simply passed a really bad time (like Sazed) or also "others of the 16" were more Connected with things like kindness,ecc...But anyway you have right, It's just a theory of mine, I may be horrible wrong.

 

about the ambient investiture, my question wasn't a critic...I was just thinking about the semanthics of the things. For example:

If we have a chunk of Investiture, Shard-comparable made of Pre-Shattering investiture.... can we call it "ambient investiture" or we have to use another term ?

But now I will stop this kind of thoughts, I am going off topic...sorry

[JUQ he/him]

13 hours ago, Yata said:

But now I will stop this kind of thoughts, I am going off topic...sorry

Ha, don't worry. Your ideas are much more interesting than the original topic.

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

Quote

There's a WoB somewhere about the Cognitive Realm (which I refuse to call Shadesmar outside of Roshar)...

I think we can now say that the Cognitive Realm is known as Shadesmar by off-world folks, per the release of Khriss' intro to the Drominad system! =)

[JUQ he/him]

2 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I think we can now say that the Cognitive Realm is known as Shadesmar by off-world folks, per the release of Khriss' intro to the Drominad system! =)

Who's to say that Khriss didn't just like the idea of calling it Shadesmar?

[Spoolofwhool]

23 minutes ago, JUQ said:

Who's to say that Khriss didn't just like the idea of calling it Shadesmar?

It doesn't really matter. Shadesmar is a word for the Cognitive Realm in some language. If you don't want to use it, you don't have to. However, just using it to refer to the Cognitive Realm around Roshar and no other is an incorrect usage of it, since it refers to the whole Cognitive Realm.