Thought about Wit's Motives

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

As I'm rereading through TWoK, I got to the section where Wit (Hoid) appears in the story and something hit me.  We know that physical death on Roshar is off a bit, that "warriors are needed to fight for the Tranquiline Halls" in the afterlife and all.  The ardents teach that all callings are helpful in the afterlife, so it seems that death takes a person into service in the next life.

It's been theorized that the reason the KR abandoned their oaths was because they learned that death would send them to Damnation (Braize) to fight voidbringers or to be tortured or whatever happens there (obviously unpleasant because they abandoned their shards and oaths to avoid going).

But, even after the Recreance, this idea of moving on into the afterlife to fight for the Tranquiline Halls continued in culture/religion, but obviously didn't apply to average people because giving up the shards/Nahel Bond caused the KR to become average (read "uninvested" maybe?) people again, avoiding this unpleasant future.

That said, of all the kinds of people and disguises Hoid could have taken, he chose to be a King's Wit, a position who insults others and is often killed for the offensive nature of the position.

We know Hoid is invested with all kinds of magic - do you think he wants to be killed so he can be transported to whatever this next life, the "Tranquiline Halls/Damnation/Braize/Cognitive Realm," to further his mission in the Cosmere?  Maybe there's no other way to get there specifically, so he's biding his time insulting powerful warlords knowing that he will eventually get his chance to go.

Theory Hole #1 is that Hoid seems to be worried about Odium/Rayse and the terrible power he holds, so why would he want to go to where Odium is?  I'm not honestly sure, but he does strange things - maybe he's ready to take the fight to Rayse directly?

[1stBondsmith he/him]

Hoid is a particularly difficult being to kill, and the feat would be beyond most people we have met according to the books. He is not afraid of swords or shardblades, or the 17th Shard, or most anyone, including some shards. I think an effort to be killed by Rosharan nobility would be the very long way to be deadened...But a Wit can stay next to people and say what he wants without fear of mortal reprisal. In short, it is the best way to stay near Rosharan nobility WITHOUT being killed.

Edited November 1, 2016 by 1stBondsmith
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[Pagerunner he/him]

Mistborn: Secret History spoilers:

Kelsier lost his Allomancy when he was a Cognitive Shadow. I don't think Hoid would want to lose all the magic he's been collecting.

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

16 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Mistborn: Secret History spoilers:

 

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Kelsier lost his Allomancy when he was a Cognitive Shadow. I don't think Hoid would want to lose all the magic he's been collecting.

 

Fair point, but Hoid is in many ways different than any other Cosmere character.  My wonderings are if he has the ability to allow his physical body to die, which would "hack" the Rosharian "invested people afterlife railroad" to wherever it goes.

Originally I thought Hoid could just hop in the perpendicularity in the Horneater Peaks, but I'm more convinced that travel to this afterlife afterworld requires a specific type of death.

If death removed investiture powers on Roshar, doesn't that defeat the idea that the Heralds and KR have power in the afterlife to fight the voidbringers?

Edited November 1, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[Spoolofwhool]

13 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

If death removed investiture powers on Roshar, doesn't that defeat the idea that the Heralds and KR have power in the afterlife to fight the voidbringers?

First of all, the Heralds aren't staying dead, so they would be keeping their powers when they're resurrected. Secondly, that the KRs are fighting in the afterlife is a theory, not a confirmed fact, so we can't say for certain. For all we know, they might not be fighting while dead, but might actually be rapidly resurrected shortly following dead and sent to Braize where they can fight with their powers, like the Heralds. Or they might just be fighting as cognitive entities in the cognitive realm without powers. Personally, I don't ascribe to the "torment the dead KRs with more fighting" theory, so eh. The only other reference is Vorinism, but I don't find that to be entirely reliable.

Overall, I don't really agree with this, since if he actually wanted to die in a particular way on Roshar, he would've done so already. Becoming the King's Wit just so that he can insult lighteyes with hopes that one of them will kill him is a lot more roundabout and, in my opinion, sillier, especially considering there is considerable motivation for a lighteyes to not kill him. If he really wanted to die to a lighteyes, I'm sure he would've just been able to manipulate one into dueling him, then manipulating the duel so that it becomes fatal. With lightweaving, that wouldn't be too hard. Carrying on, as others said, he would be dead and wouldn't have the considerable abilities he has spent time gaining, so I'm not seeing the benefits. I also doubt that the Tranquiline Halls or Damnation are anything special outside of Vorinism in Realmatic Theory, and he can already get to the Cognitive Realm.

[Oversleep]

To quote Brandon: "Hoid is very, very, very hard to kill". It was a question about who would win in an all-out fight between cosmere main characters.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

To quote Brandon: "Hoid is very, very, very hard to kill". It was a question about who would win in an all-out fight between cosmere main characters.

To be fair though, if he were trying as the OP suggested, he could probably suppress all of his death-prevention abilities and just die.

[Pagerunner he/him]

33 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

If death removed investiture powers on Roshar, doesn't that defeat the idea that the Heralds and KR have power in the afterlife to fight the voidbringers?

It would just mean that they're not using Surgebinding in the afterlife. Heralds use the Honorblades whenever they come back, and get their Surgebinding again; other 'powers' (i.e. Taln's reflexes) can come from changes to their sDNA, not from a particular magic system.

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Becoming the King's Wit just so that he can insult lighteyes with hopes that one of them will kill him is a lot more roundabout and, in my opinion, sillier, especially considering there is considerable motivation for a lighteyes to not kill him. If he really wanted to die to a lighteyes, I'm sure he would've just been able to manipulate one into dueling him, then manipulating the duel so that it becomes fatal.

If anyone was to be silly, Hoid would be the perfect candidate :-P

I think the magic systems on Roshar are governed by very specific rules as determined by the three shards at some point in the past.  To say that transport to Braize is "just as easy as going into Shadesmar" seems too easy.  Granted, it seems that Taln was forced back to damnation when he died, but the other Heralds had the choice to return willingly - perhaps all a part of the rules of the Oathpact?

Hoid may be trying to hack a specific set of rules that are specific to Roshar.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I think the magic systems on Roshar are governed by very specific rules as determined by the three shards at some point in the past.  To say that transport to Braize is "just as easy as going into Shadesmar" seems too easy.  Granted, it seems that Taln was forced back to damnation when he died, but the other Heralds had the choice to return willingly - perhaps all a part of the rules of the Oathpact?

Hoid may be trying to hack a specific set of rules that are specific to Roshar.

How are you relating whatever rules apply to the manifestations of investiture of Roshar and one's ability to worldhop to Braize? Secondly, why would he want to go to Braize considering Odium is likely there? It's been indicated that he's afraid of Rayse, going there would likely not end well. Regarding the Heralds, there's a WoB that if they didn't return to Braize, another Desolation would begin prematurely. While this is more than likely related to the effects of the Oathpact, I don't see how it would restrict a non-involved from going to Braize since I doubt Braize itself is part of the Oathpact. The only reason it is important is because Odium is there,

My theory on Hoid being on Roshar is that he wants to stop Rayse. If the first letter was written by him as strongly suspected, he considers Rayse to be a serious threat. As such, he arrived on Roshar just as the True Desolation was approaching in order to give a hand to those who could defeat. We've seen this happening, as he has been carefully encouraging the progress of Shallan and Kaladin, and discussing to some degree with Jasnah. We do know that at the same time, the amount he can do is restricted, which is why he hasn't done more to push them in the right direction. 

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

16 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

How are you relating whatever rules apply to the manifestations of investiture of Roshar and one's ability to worldhop to Braize?

I'm saying that there are rules for all kinds of things in the Roshar system and it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility that passage to and from Damnation/Braize would be likewise regulated by rules.

16 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Secondly, why would he want to go to Braize considering Odium is likely there?

Because of your stated theory - "he wants to stop Rayse."  I don't know how he intends to do that (none of us do yet), but I think there's a connection between an individual's status as a KR and their pathway/destination after physical death.  Maybe Hoid is "encouraging the progress" of soon to be KRs because he wants to go to Braize with an army instead of by himself?  I agree it seems like a stretch than a being who is practically immortal would allow himself to be killed, but Brandon explains that the King's Wit is a person who can either be killed outright at personal cost, or stealthily killed without cost, which could be a clue as to why Hoid is a wit and not a story teller or ardent or scribe or any other position that could likewise be close to important lighteyes.

Quote

INTERVIEW: Feb 27th, 2016

Librarypalooza

FEATHERWRITER

Is something wrong with Roshar's afterlife?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uh, why do you ask?

FEATHERWRITER

Because of the Tranquiline Halls stuff? Needing to reclaim them?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Um. So, I'm... not going to answer anything about Roshar's afterlife.

FEATHERWRITER

Kay, alright

SOMETHING is going on in the afterlife with Roshar and I think Hoid is attempting to hack/intervene in this problem.  Perhaps there's something about being killed on Roshar specifically that plays into this.

18 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

It would just mean that they're not using Surgebinding in the afterlife. Heralds use the Honorblades whenever they come back, and get their Surgebinding again; other 'powers' (i.e. Taln's reflexes) can come from changes to their sDNA, not from a particular magic system.

Right, and we know that Hoid's sDNA is obviously all sorts of things, which could translate to powers in whatever happens after physical death on Roshar.  I'm operating under the theory that the KR either have powers (i,e, surgebinding) they can use in the afterlife to fight in the war to reclaim whatever the Tranquiline Halls are, OR they get no powers and are transported as some kind of sacrifice to Odium to satisfy the Oathpact (hence why the KR abandoned the oaths and ran far away).  Either way, I think they get transported to Braize.