Szeth redemption?

[Elenion he/him]

A few people have mentioned above that Nale has "bigger fish to fry". However, look at the Ym interlude: if we take the man in that to be Nale (which I'm pretty sure he is), then it proves that that's exactly what he hasn't done: prioritized. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the Skybreakers' over-arching flaw: they can't stop themselves from carrying out justice, even if it's no longer necessary.

[Kered he/him]

I think it was him just going after surgebinders at random, trying to prevent the Last Desolation. Well that's out the window now, so Nale's plans are going to shift. I don't think he's going to go after these goals the same way, we already see this by him recruiting Szeth.

[What's a Seawolf?]

20 hours ago, Tsidqiyah said:

Maybe Nale will send Szeth after Lift. If anyone could redeem him it is her. Besides additional proof that the KR are returning would be good for him.

I would love this!  Granted Lift is one of the my favorite characters even with her short screen time, but the interactions and relationship that could develop between two polar opposite characters would be great.  And provide some levity to contrast what I'm sure will be pretty heavy events to come.

[Bromo_Sapien]

Am I the only one that would love to see Szeth go the opposite route, get darker and darker and become the corporeal Big Bad of the series? Especially if you (like I) believe the Parshendi will redeem themselves, Odium is going to need a Champion a la Dalinar for Honor or Vin/Wax for Preservation/Ruin/Harmony. Every other shard (other than Autonomy, for obvious reasons) has some sort of Champion.

 

I love Szeth's character and enjoy the angsty anti-hero as much as the next guy but I also love zigging when others are zagging. Szeth is on the edge right now and could turn either way. We need someone who will "betray them all".

 

Plus, Szeth seems like a nice contrast to Dalinar. One is a lord who is questioning his role in an effort to improve his society. The other simply takes orders and brings destruction and death. Plus, there's the whole murdering Dalinar's brother and idol thing, which makes for pretty natural rivals.

[What's a Seawolf?]

21 minutes ago, Bromo_Sapien said:

Am I the only one that would love to see Szeth go the opposite route, get darker and darker and become the corporeal Big Bad of the series? Especially if you (like I) believe the Parshendi will redeem themselves, Odium is going to need a Champion a la Dalinar for Honor or Vin/Wax for Preservation/Ruin/Harmony. Every other shard (other than Autonomy, for obvious reasons) has some sort of Champion.

 

I love Szeth's character and enjoy the angsty anti-hero as much as the next guy but I also love zigging when others are zagging. Szeth is on the edge right now and could turn either way. We need someone who will "betray them all".

 

Plus, Szeth seems like a nice contrast to Dalinar. One is a lord who is questioning his role in an effort to improve his society. The other simply takes orders and brings destruction and death. Plus, there's the whole murdering Dalinar's brother and idol thing, which makes for pretty natural rivals.

I actually really would like that.  I do feel Szeth has probably done too much to ever fully be one of the good guys.

Why not both?  Have Szeth and Lift do a little team up where Lift (mostly unintentionally) goes about the process of redeeming him, and where the reader is led to think Szeth is going to become one of the good guys.  But then boom, Szeth does something horrid and ends up falling completely down the rabbit hole.

 

Not to say such a thing hasn't been many times before in literature, but I feel the narrative is certainly heading towards the 'Szeth Redemption' route, and a twist to that would not be amiss.

[Kered he/him]

I think I like the idea of that parallel, but with Kaladin, not Dalinar. 

Kaladin gaining power and progressively doing more and more good. While on the other side, you gave Szeth gaining more power and progressively doing more and more evil. All leading up to the two in an epic showdown. It might be at that point where Kaladin finally shows Szeth the error of his ways and in some way sacrificing himself for the greater good, thus redeeming himself. 

[Garglemesh he/him]

I was thinking if Szeth and Nale get the Honorblades and give them to particular KR, that'd be pretty cool. That's just wishful thinking though. Nale seems pretty content to do his own thing and would probably entrust the blades to his own followers. Besides. I see amazing melding of powers being a super cool awesome thing that happens for a single battle, not long term. 

As far as Szeth's redemption goes, it'd be interesting to see him become Honor's champion. Is that cliché? What isn't cliché? Anyway. He would go from Odium's (or maybe Cultivation's) tool to Honor's champion. That would be redeeming. If he does spiral into evil, he'd have to lose Nightblood eventually. The evil path would create a lot of frustration because we would see a glimmer of hope for him, only to see him throw it away. I must admit Brandon's characters tend to irritate me a lot less than Jordan's did. So it would be a change if he did something like that. I mean, Kaladin's stubbornness was close but still never Rand-level. I guess he'll need us to deeply care about Szeth to make that twist hurt enough. 

[Kered he/him]

31 minutes ago, Garglemesh said:

I was thinking if Szeth and Nale get the Honorblades and give them to particular KR, that'd be pretty cool. That's just wishful thinking though. Nale seems pretty content to do his own thing and would probably entrust the blades to his own followers. Besides. I see amazing melding of powers being a super cool awesome thing that happens for a single battle, not long term. 

As far as Szeth's redemption goes, it'd be interesting to see him become Honor's champion. Is that cliché? What isn't cliché? Anyway. He would go from Odium's (or maybe Cultivation's) tool to Honor's champion. That would be redeeming. If he does spiral into evil, he'd have to lose Nightblood eventually. The evil path would create a lot of frustration because we would see a glimmer of hope for him, only to see him throw it away. I must admit Brandon's characters tend to irritate me a lot less than Jordan's did. So it would be a change if he did something like that. I mean, Kaladin's stubbornness was close but still never Rand-level. I guess he'll need us to deeply care about Szeth to make that twist hurt enough. 

You know I never thought about that Cultivation bit. With Honor "dead', after a while it would only make sense for the Heralds to gravitate towards another master/shard. Maybe Nale and a few other Heralds see Cultivation as the new "Almighty". 

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

21 hours ago, KereDerek said:

It could be possible that the gift of Nightblood is more significant that we realize. It could mean Nale is going to send Szeth to other worlds to dispel evil, and not just keep him contained to Roshar.

I do wonder how much Nale knows about Nightblood. Such as if he knows it belonged to Vasher and that he/it comes from a different shardworld. Not really important to the plot, I justify wonder how much Nale has learned of other shardworlds, if anything at all, in his travels with Nightblood.

I hope NB Szetg have a good working relationship. He could be good for Szeth, I think lol.

Edited October 27, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler
Typo

[Kered he/him]

31 minutes ago, The Ninja Yodeler said:

I do wonder how much Nale knows about Nightblood. Such as if he knows it belonged to Vasher and that he/it comes from a different shardworld. Not really important to the plot, I justify wonder how much Nale has learned of other shardworlds, if anything at all, in his travels with Nightblood.

I hope NB Szetg have a good working relationship. He could be good for Szeth, I think lol.

The potential banter between the both of them alone is enough reason to want Oathbringer to come out faster lol.

[Spoolofwhool]

The only problem I see with the "Szeth will be Odium's Champion" idea is that it doesn't fit Szeth at all. As Nale even said, Szeth is basically honorable to the point of self-destruction. He didn't take orders and bring about death and destruction because he wanted it to occur. On the contrary, he did it because it was, to him, the only honorable thing he had left. He had basically been told by his peers and elders that his beliefs were incorrect and that the only way he could redeem himself would be to accept the oaths of a Truthless, which he did. 

Now that he has been released from those oaths, he can do what he thinks is honorable. From his thoughts, we can infer that he was forced to take the oaths of a Truthless because he tried to warn people that a Desolation was coming. As such, I think he does believe that preventing the mass destruction of a Desolation is the right way. While it is possible that his madness resulting from being caught between with oaths and the truth might've changed him, making him want to take vengeance on the Stone Shamans, I don't think this is the case. Under Nale's guidance, I think he will stay on the path of Honor, since that is what caused Nale to recruit him initially. 

[Farnsworth]

Szeth can't be Odium's champion for another reason: he already follows Honor. He follows Nale, who is a Herald, who works for Honor. Also, like Spoolofwool said, Szeth isn't evil, just obedient.

On another note, I think Nightblood will help redeem him. If Szeth is evil, or thinks he's evil, nightblood will try to kill him. It's a problem that will have to be resolved pretty quickly if Szeth is going to live.

[Kered he/him]

37 minutes ago, Figberts said:

Szeth can't be Odium's champion for another reason: he already follows Honor. He follows Nale, who is a Herald, who works for Honor. Also, like Spoolofwool said, Szeth isn't evil, just obedient.

On another note, I think Nightblood will help redeem him. If Szeth is evil, or thinks he's evil, nightblood will try to kill him. It's a problem that will have to be resolved pretty quickly if Szeth is going to live.

Think it's feasible about the Cultivation idea? Honor and Cultivation were a thing, so it might make since that since Honor was splintered the Heralds would eventually find themselves following Cultivation. Either they seeked her out, or vice versa. Could help Szeth even more towards redemption if Nale leads him to a 1 on 1 with the vessel. 

[Bromo_Sapien]

So I don't necessarily believe that Szeth is Odium's Champion right now (I think Odium is banking on Eshonai before she betrays him), but will descend into darkness over the next few books due to mental corruption. Nightblood isn't exactly... easy to get along with and his misunderstanding of "destroying evil" and Szeth's confusion with the morality of his previous actions could react in supremely negative ways.

 

Plus, Szeth can do evil and be aligned with Odium without going full cackling villain. He can believe what he is doing is right and just while working for Odium. He's just incorrect (from our and the protagonists' perspectives).

[soyperson]

On 10/27/2016 at 11:14 AM, KereDerek said:

I think I like the idea of that parallel, but with Kaladin, not Dalinar. 

Kaladin gaining power and progressively doing more and more good. While on the other side, you gave Szeth gaining more power and progressively doing more and more evil. All leading up to the two in an epic showdown. It might be at that point where Kaladin finally shows Szeth the error of his ways and in some way sacrificing himself for the greater good, thus redeeming himself. 

That could be a great climax for book 5. It may even influence events in the second half. 

[Kered he/him]

7 minutes ago, bleeder said:

That could be a great climax for book 5. It may even influence events in the second half. 

Yeah something like would definitely send ripples through the latter half of the series. I think it would really help develop Kaladin's character in an awesome way.

[Savanorn he/him]

16 hours ago, Bromo_Sapien said:

So I don't necessarily believe that Szeth is Odium's Champion right now (I think Odium is banking on Eshonai before she betrays him), but will descend into darkness over the next few books due to mental corruption. Nightblood isn't exactly... easy to get along with and his misunderstanding of "destroying evil" and Szeth's confusion with the morality of his previous actions could react in supremely negative ways.

 

Plus, Szeth can do evil and be aligned with Odium without going full cackling villain. He can believe what he is doing is right and just while working for Odium. He's just incorrect (from our and the protagonists' perspectives).

This makes sense to me. 

I think it'll take some time, if ever, for Szeth to reorient himself toward a healthy mental state.

It's worth noting he was rather insane before he died, and suddenly finding out that the reason for his status as Roshar's Number One Murderer is faulty is hardly going to help that. Adding Nightblood into the equation isn't really a stabilizing element and I really don't think Nale has his (or anyone's) best interests at heart. 

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, Savanorn said:

It's worth noting he was rather insane before he died, and suddenly finding out that the reason for his status as Roshar's Number One Murderer is faulty is hardly going to help that. Adding Nightblood into the equation isn't really a stabilizing element and I really don't think Nale has his (or anyone's) best interests at heart. 

Nale doesn't have his best interests at heart, sure, but why would he allow Szeth to advance Odium's power? Isn't he trying to stop the Desolations? I can understand the logic of him being a more destabilizing element and conflicting with Kaladin and the other protagonists, but actually aligning with Odium is something I don't see happening, considering how much both Szeth and Nale don't want the Desolation to win.

[cuimhne she/her]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Nale doesn't have his best interests at heart, sure, but why would he allow Szeth to advance Odium's power? Isn't he trying to stop the Desolations? I can understand the logic of him being a more destabilizing element and conflicting with Kaladin and the other protagonists, but actually aligning with Odium is something I don't see happening, considering how much both Szeth and Nale don't want the Desolation to win.

That is a good point, to an extent. I don't think Nale would knowingly allow Szeth to advance Odium's power, but it is possible that Szeth will unknowingly work for Odium. 

Mistborn: Secret History spoiler:

Spoiler

Kelsier has a powerful Connection to Ruin, even though Ruin is seen as the bad guy. Kelsier wants Preservation to win, but almost everything he does helps Ruin instead. 

 

[djammmer]

On October 26, 2016 at 10:39 AM, AngelEy3 said:

There's still good in him.... I can feel it.

Now that's an interesting comparison.... Seth ~= Anakin?

[Kered he/him]

That's what I think. But I think Szeth is going to sacrifice himself for something greater. Maybe protecting Kaladin? I think he's going to a lot of bad, but hes going to redeem himself in death.

 

But what I hope is that he doesn't have to die. I think it would be awesome in second 5 that he become apart of the nights radiant. I also think it would be awesome if he bonded with a Spren. Depending on the Spren, it would help him a lot on going down the road of redemption. Also it would be cool if he bonded with a Sprenger AND still had Nightblood. That would lead to excellent dialogue I think. 

 

 

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

19 minutes ago, KereDerek said:

That's what I think. But I think Szeth is going to sacrifice himself for something greater. Maybe protecting Kaladin? I think he's going to a lot of bad, but hes going to redeem himself in death.

 

But what I hope is that he doesn't have to die. I think it would be awesome in second 5 that he become apart of the nights radiant. I also think it would be awesome if he bonded with a Spren. Depending on the Spren, it would help him a lot on going down the road of redemption. Also it would be cool if he bonded with a Sprenger AND still had Nightblood. That would lead to excellent dialogue I think. 

 

 

This reminded me of a theory I thought of a little while back. The idea was that Szeth would become a Dustbringer. Szeth follows Shin laws, but he breaks the laws of other countries, which seemed unlike the Skybreaker ideals. He was, however, obedient to the Shin, which is one of the Dustbringer attributes. They are also described as misunderstood by others. 

[Savanorn he/him]

5 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Nale doesn't have his best interests at heart, sure, but why would he allow Szeth to advance Odium's power? Isn't he trying to stop the Desolations? I can understand the logic of him being a more destabilizing element and conflicting with Kaladin and the other protagonists, but actually aligning with Odium is something I don't see happening, considering how much both Szeth and Nale don't want the Desolation to win.

Excellent question, I'd answer it but it looks like cuimhne already did...

4 hours ago, cuimhne said:

That is a good point, to an extent. I don't think Nale would knowingly allow Szeth to advance Odium's power, but it is possible that Szeth will unknowingly work for Odium. 

Mistborn: Secret History spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

Kelsier has a powerful Connection to Ruin, even though Ruin is seen as the bad guy. Kelsier wants Preservation to win, but almost everything he does helps Ruin instead. 

 

So yeah. Pretty much this. 

Basically I follow the Corrupted Heralds theory and I think that Nale is serving Odium by his actions if not by his intent.

 

[JUQ he/him]

On 10/27/2016 at 7:52 AM, Lord_of_Awesome said:

Kholi

I usually don't make fun of typos, but this one was too funny. I doubt if you know him, but Virat Kholi is very famous. http://www.cricbuzz.com/profiles/1413/virat-kohli

On 10/27/2016 at 8:51 AM, The Ninja Yodeler said:

Hell, Shallash goes around destroying any effigy she can find of herself.

Oh dear. I've just finished re-reading both Stormlight books and can't find where you got this from. I obviously haven't been paying enough attention.

[AngelEy3 he/him]

1 minute ago, JUQ said:

I usually don't make fun of typos, but this one was too funny. I doubt if you know him, but Virat Kholi is very famous. http://www.cricbuzz.com/profiles/1413/virat-kohli

Oh dear. I've just finished re-reading both Stormlight books and can't find where you got this from. I obviously haven't been paying enough attention.

Interludes. She's going around destroying artwork and it's told from the perspective of her guards/crew