Speculation On Roshar's Afterlife

[ScarletSabre]

WARNING - MINOR WORDS OF RADIANCE SPOILERS AND MAJOR MISTBORN; SECRET HISTORY SPOILERS AHEAD

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So, after rereading this - http://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/ , I'm once again wondering just what's going on in the Cognitive Realm in Roshar... Jasnah sees the floating flames of life flicker out as the sailors are executed... but unlike in Mistborn; Secret History, we don't see any Cognitive Shadows appear in Shadesmar with her.

What Ivory says to her about being unable to return to the Physical Realm because there's only a Junction "Only when a piece of you is there.", implies that she's Elsecalled herself bodily into the Cognitive Realm, and is reminiscent of Kelsier's problem in SH, where he can't return to the Physical Realm because his tether to the piece of himself there has been cut. I'm once again wondering about the way Shadesmar works compared to what we've seen of the Cognitive Realm in SH, and here are my thoughts at the moment.

The solidity of the sea and the ground are flipped. That's always bothered me until now, as I just had a thought. I hadn't considered the cognitive aspects of both Spren and animals. Jasnah can see the glowing souls of marine life through the obsidian beneath her, and I think that since the Cognitive Realm is a reflection of how souls percieve the Physical Realm, the sea life all across Roshar is percieving the water around them as a solid mass, which reflects in Shadesmar.

The beads making up the solid land and all that's on it are a reflection of human interaction with Spren, since they can see manifestations of emotion and rain, to name but a few, in the Physical Realm. Kaladin's mother even tells him as a child that some people believe that everything has a Spren, and a soul, even Tubers. This belief in every piece and aspect of their world having a soul and manifestation would reflect in the Cognitive realm as people wouldn't think of things as wholes as they would on Scadrial, but considering, if just subconsciously, the individual makeup of everything, the flames and sticks of a fire rather than the campfire ball of mist that we see Kelsier interact with. (I'm now even more curious to see Shadesmar in Shinovar, where there are no Spren...)

And I'm once again drawn to the theory that the Vorin Tranquiline Halls are actually the Spiritual Realm, and Braize is Damnation, taking the souls and Cognitive Shadows when they should be appearing in Shadesmar.

Thoughts? 

Edited October 19, 2016 by Rawrbert
Added spoiler warning

[Eki]

You should probably put spoiler tags for SH either in the post, or in the title.

[ScarletSabre]

8 minutes ago, Eki said:

You should probably put spoiler tags for SH either in the post, or in the title.

Good point, done that!

[Spoolofwhool]

I haven't read Secret History so I could be off-point for this, but based on what I know, I don't see why the sailors would become cognitive shadows when they die. From what I know, cognitive shadows occur when a person dies physically, but they are connected to a large enough well of investiture to keep their cognitive grounded. Otherwise their cognitive and spiritual would just go immediately to the Beyond. As such, I don't see anything strange with the sailors' flames just disappearing when they're killed; they don't have anything rooting them in the cognitive so they're going straight to the Beyond. 

An interesting theory for sure. I'm hoping to read Secret History soon enough so I can understand realmatics more.

[Shardbearer]

@Spoolofwhool, yeah you kind of need to read SH to understand what's unusual about this.

SH spoilers:

 

Spoiler

 

The land and sea are also flipped in Scadrial's region of the CR. Kel could walk around on the mist because he was a Cognitive Shadow. Hoid needed a "human boat" to get around on the mist. When Kel goes to a lake or ocean, he climbs onto land that looks like obsidian, just like the ocean we see in Shadesmar.

Also, I don't think there is a significant difference in how Cognitive Entities are viewed across planets. A tuber is an object. It has a spren. A table has a spren. A suit of armor has a spren. A ship has a spren. We see this through Shallan and Jasnah's POVs.

If you cut a tuber in half it becomes two objects and so each has it's own spren.

I've always assumed that the reason land and sea are swapped is because there is more cognitive activity on land, which results in a lot of beads or mist to sink through, whereas the sea is has less cognitive activity and so you can walk on the solid space between objects, or maybe on the surface of the sea  which is one large entity.

 

Edited October 19, 2016 by Shardbearer
spoiler tags not working

[Spoolofwhool]

51 minutes ago, Shardbearer said:

@Spoolofwhool, yeah you kind of need to read SH to understand what's unusual about this.

SH spoilers:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The land and sea are also flipped in Scadrial's region of the CR. Kel could walk around on the mist because he was a Cognitive Shadow. Hoid needed a "human boat" to get around on the mist. When Kel goes to a lake or ocean, he climbs onto land that looks like obsidian, just like the ocean we see in Shadesmar.

Also, I don't think there is a significant difference in how Cognitive Entities are viewed across planets. A tuber is an object. It has a spren. A table has a spren. A suit of armor has a spren. A ship has a spren. We see this through Shallan and Jasnah's POVs.

If you cut a tuber in half it becomes two objects and so each has it's own spren.

I've always assumed that the reason land and sea are swapped is because there is more cognitive activity on land, which results in a lot of beads or mist to sink through, whereas the sea is has less cognitive activity and so you can walk on the solid space between objects, or maybe on the surface of the sea  which is one large entity.

 

That doesn't explain my question of why the sailors not having cognitive shadows is weird. The stuff about everything being flipped is beyond me, and I don't really mind that, I'm more interested in the single facet of my question regarding the theory. 

[ScarletSabre]

11 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

That doesn't explain my question of why the sailors not having cognitive shadows is weird. The stuff about everything being flipped is beyond me, and I don't really mind that, I'm more interested in the single facet of my question regarding the theory. 

It's because in Secret History... Kinda major spoilers ahead... For Realmatics, not so much for plot.

Spoiler

We see that EVERYONE that dies has a Cognitive Shadow, not just Allomancers or Feruchemists, and Preservation even tells Kelsier that everyone passes through the Cognitive Realm before moving on to the Spiritual/Great Beyond.

Invested people just last longer before going on, and the more innate Investiture, such as Mistborn, (who last longer in the CR than Mistings and non-Allomancers), resisting the tug to move on.

At a certain level of Investiture, such as Vessels, the tug can be resisted indefinitely and unconsciously, one has to make a conscious choice to let go and be taken to the Beyond.

Granted, this could only be true on Scadrial, but would the process of death be different for another part of the Cognitive Realm to the point that there's no sign of a Cognitive Shadow at all?

 

Edited October 19, 2016 by Rawrbert
Clarifying Spoileriness

[Tsidqiyah]

1 minute ago, Rawrbert said:

It's because in Secret History... Kinda major spoilers ahead...

  Hide contents

We see that EVERYONE that dies has a Cognitive Shadow, not just Allomancers or Feruchemists, and Preservation even tells Kelsier that everyone passes through the Cognitive Realm before moving on to the Spiritual/Great Beyond.

Invested people just last longer before going on, and the more innate Investiture, such as Mistborn, (who last longer in the CR than Mistings and non-Allomancers), resisting the tug to move on.

 

Don't people on Scadrial have more innate investiture from Preservation then the people on Roshar, who were not created by a Shard? This could explain the near complete lack of cognitive shadows in Shadsmar. They do end up there then go beyond so quickly Jasnah can see the middle step of the transition. 

[ScarletSabre]

5 minutes ago, Tsidqiyah said:

Don't people on Scadrial have more innate investiture from Preservation then the people on Roshar, who were not created by a Shard? This could explain the near complete lack of cognitive shadows in Shadsmar. They do end up there then go beyond so quickly Jasnah can see the middle step of the transition. 

Do we have any WOBs on that? We have them that Nathalians have more innate Investiture than other Shardworld races, but I don't think we have any WOBs on races having LESS innate Investiture outside of being Drabs.

[Yata]

Yes Scadrial people has a little more Investiture than the average human (of course a Nalthis guy with his Breath is still greater).

I immagine it would be strange the Nalthis's Cognitive Realm...with a lot of people who die and may last there for a while before go Beyond

[Shardbearer]

@Spoolofwhool Sorry for the confusion, the rest of my post after that first bit was a response to the OP rather than to your question.

[ScarletSabre]

7 minutes ago, Shardbearer said:

@Spoolofwhool Sorry for the confusion, the rest of my post after that first bit was a response to the OP rather than to your question.

Ah, whoops, I never responded to that.... I think you may be right there, but there are no Spren on other worlds in the Cosmere, as far as we know, so I assume that their existance must have some effect on the Cognitive Realm in Roshar.; there was no sign of any Grinders or other types of Spren in the afterlife for Kelsier in SH after all

Perhaps they're not drawn away from Shadesmar strongly enough by any prescence in the CR over where other planets would be, but it makes me wonder.

[Shardbearer]

Something about the Roshar Spiritweb gives extra power to ideas, creating spren, but..

 

Emperor's Soul/SH

Spoiler

Shai still describes objects as having a soul or seeing themselves in a certain way, and Kelsier see's the same thing with the souls of the objects he takes on his journey.

When people on Roshar talk about objects having spren, they're basically referring to the same thing.

 

[Argent]

I think this is a pretty interesting discussion I don't have much to contribute to...

[ScarletSabre]

2 hours ago, Shardbearer said:

Something about the Roshar Spiritweb gives extra power to ideas, creating spren, but..

 

Emperor's Soul/SH

  Hide contents

Shai still describes objects as having a soul or seeing themselves in a certain way, and Kelsier see's the same thing with the souls of the objects he takes on his journey.

When people on Roshar talk about objects having spren, they're basically referring to the same thing.

 

Ooooh, that's a good point, though I was thinking more of personification of concepts like sentient Spren... I think we can all agree that if there were emotional Spren, Kelsier would have attracted enough hatredspren and angerspren over the years to make them visible.

1 hour ago, Argent said:

I think this is a pretty interesting discussion I don't have much to contribute to...

Every word is a contribution  Say what's on your mind, dude!

[Spoolofwhool]

7 hours ago, Rawrbert said:

It's because in Secret History... Kinda major spoilers ahead... For Realmatics, not so much for plot.

  Reveal hidden contents

We see that EVERYONE that dies has a Cognitive Shadow, not just Allomancers or Feruchemists, and Preservation even tells Kelsier that everyone passes through the Cognitive Realm before moving on to the Spiritual/Great Beyond.

Invested people just last longer before going on, and the more innate Investiture, such as Mistborn, (who last longer in the CR than Mistings and non-Allomancers), resisting the tug to move on.

At a certain level of Investiture, such as Vessels, the tug can be resisted indefinitely and unconsciously, one has to make a conscious choice to let go and be taken to the Beyond.

Granted, this could only be true on Scadrial, but would the process of death be different for another part of the Cognitive Realm to the point that there's no sign of a Cognitive Shadow at all?

 

So it's not possible that the sailors had just such a low amount of investiture that their cognitive shadow would've only existed for an unnoticeable period before moving on to the Beyond? 

Regarding the mechanics of the actual theory then. What do you mean that Braize is where the souls and cognitive shadows are? The sailors are existing cognitively in Shadesmar before they die, then you say they're in Braize, so do you mean the cognitive realm location of Braize? Shadesmar though is just a name for the cognitive realm, so they would still be in Shadesmar. The other possibility is that you're saying that the cognitive shadows are being moved to another realm, but they can't really be physical and spiritual doesn't have a location, so you're suggesting a fourth realm where cognitive entities can exist as well? 

I'm assuming the former, in which I'm taking that you're using Shadesmar poorly to define only the cognitive realm located at Roshar. If that's the case, then something would have to be moving the cognitive shadows from wherever they are in Roshar's cognitive space to Braize's cognitive space, something which Jasnah didn't notice being there. 

So what I'm saying is, while my knowledge of realmatics is still shoddy, I feel it is more likely the cognitive shadows aren't noticeable before going to the Beyond than the possibility that something is moving them instantaneously to another place in the cognitive realm without Jasnah, who is right there, noticing. 

If there are incorrect assumption, which I have no doubt there are, please correct me. 

[marianmi]

I also haven't read SH, but this discussion is fascinating - can't wait to read the Realmatics in it.

@Spoolofwhool I think the OP is saying that cognitive shadows are pulled in Braize's Shadesmar instead of Roshar's Shadesmar. So a person dying is not "shown around"/"given a choice" by Honor and/or Cultivation (well, just Cultivation now), but by Odium. Maybe this happens in all of Roshar EXCEPT Shinovar - maybe dying on Shinovar means you do end-up in Roshar and Cultivation says "Hi". Maybe cognitive shadows appear where the shard is - and after Honor's death they appear on Braize's Shadesmar, because maybe Cultivation is now only in charge of Shinovar - again, dying in Shinovar would be different from dying elsewhere on Roshar.

On a slightly different note - what would happen if you are cut down by a Shardblade or Nightblood? With shardblade, you die on spiritual realm, but with Nightblood, you would be cut from the cognitive too - does it mean you don't get a cognitive shadow and go straight to the Beyond?

 

[Spoolofwhool]

5 minutes ago, marianmi said:

I also haven't read SH, but this discussion is fascinating - can't wait to read the Realmatics in it.

@Spoolofwhool I think the OP is saying that cognitive shadows are pulled in Braize's Shadesmar instead of Roshar's Shadesmar. So a person dying is not "shown around"/"given a choice" by Honor and/or Cultivation (well, just Cultivation now), but by Odium. Maybe this happens in all of Roshar EXCEPT Shinovar - maybe dying on Shinovar means you do end-up in Roshar and Cultivation says "Hi". Maybe cognitive shadows appear where the shard is - and after Honor's death they appear on Braize's Shadesmar, because maybe Cultivation is now only in charge of Shinovar - again, dying in Shinovar would be different from dying elsewhere on Roshar.

On a slightly different note - what would happen if you are cut down by a Shardblade or Nightblood? With shardblade, you die on spiritual realm, but with Nightblood, you would be cut from the cognitive too - does it mean you don't get a cognitive shadow and go straight to the Beyond?

 

That's what I was thinking, except I don't see how there's a method of instantaneously moving a cognitive entity through the cognitive realm since distance is a thing. It's not a matter of a cognitive shadow appearing in Shadesmar, they're already somewhere in Shadesmar because of their cognitive aspect, and killing the physical body just disconnects them from that physical body. That's my main issue, since for what the OP's theory to work as I understand it, there would have to be some sort of universal presence that is everything in the Roshar-location of Shadesmar which is instantly grabbing any cognitive shadow which appears and immediately moving it to the Braize area. It's just that this is something that seems very unlikely, considering Jasnah was on-location and noticed nothing happening. 

[Lord_of_Awesome]

Random idea, unrelated to cognitive shadows, but could it be that the land/sea inversion is caused by how humans perceive the land or the sea to be workable and changeable? If you think about it, with the current levels of technology on Roshar, they would find the land easier to work on, more fluid for man to use, but you can't build houses or mines or cities or kingdoms on the ocean; therefore the sea is seen as unchanging, solid, permanent. It would be interesting later on in the SA timeline to see if, as seafaring and water technologies increase, the sea in the CR becomes more of a thick liquid (kinda like syrup) than purely solid, because people no longer see the sea as unchangeable, but just difficult to work.

 

This making sense to anyone but me?