Forum Game RP thing

[JUQ he/him]

So, I thought of this forum game thing where we think up a plan for defeating Kelsier at the time of the Final Empire.
The background: We are a group of strategists working for Lord John Ovden (don't ask, the name is a personal joke). We know that Kelsier will attack the Keep. He will have all ten metals that he knows of. We have a little less Atium than him. However, we are also defenseless, with no Allomancers or Feruchemists. Suddenly, a figure approaches, and makes an offer. He will provide us with eight Twinborn. We can choose which kinds we want, but we are limited to ten metals. What Twinborn should we use, and how should we use them to defeat Kelsier?
(HoA spoilers)

Spoiler

We have no knowledge of Hemalurgy

 

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, The True Survivor said:

So, I thought of this forum game thing where we think up a plan for defeating Kelsier at the time of the Final Empire.
The background: We are a group of strategists working for Lord John Ovden (don't ask, the name is a personal joke). We know that Kelsier will attack the Keep. He will have all ten metals that he knows of. We have a little less Atium than him. However, we are also defenseless, with no Allomancers or Feruchemists. Suddenly, a figure approaches, and makes an offer. He will provide us with eight Twinborn. We can choose which kinds we want, but we are limited to ten metals. What Twinborn should we use, and how should we use them to defeat Kelsier?
(HoA spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

We have no knowledge of Hemalurgy

 

Interesting idea, except for the huge flaw in that there were no twinborns during the time of the Final Empire. Feruchemy isn't even known either for the most part. So the idea doesn't match the setting at all. 

[JUQ he/him]

@Spoolofwhool It's not meant to match the setting. It's just a fun idea. Don't worry about the inconsistencies. Please.

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

Simple victory, steel compounders, pewter compounders, bronze compounders, and just for fun; one or more gold or zinc compounder. This might become more difficult if one couldn't use compounders.

[JUQ he/him]

34 minutes ago, ShadowLord_Lith said:

Simple victory, steel compounders, pewter compounders, bronze compounders, and just for fun; one or more gold or zinc compounder. This might become more difficult if one couldn't use compounders.

Explain your plan

[Spoolofwhool]

Just now, The True Survivor said:

Explain your plan

Steel compounders build a hugely charged metalmind then go out and one-shot Kelsier at such a high speed that he doesn't notice is what I presume the plan is. Since you can compound steel enough that you're moving well faster than people are aware, I'm fairly sure one could move faster than even Kelsier could well notice, even with tin. The only defense Kelsier really could have is if he were burning atium, but since he wouldn't start burning atium until he engaged another mistborn, he wouldn't be prepared in advance. Also, I'm doubtful of atium even helping against a steelrunner with enough of a charge since the reaction time and physical movement time would still be well too slow.

[JUQ he/him]

17 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Steel compounders build a hugely charged metalmind then go out and one-shot Kelsier at such a high speed that he doesn't notice is what I presume the plan is. Since you can compound steel enough that you're moving well faster than people are aware, I'm fairly sure one could move faster than even Kelsier could well notice, even with tin. The only defense Kelsier really could have is if he were burning atium, but since he wouldn't start burning atium until he engaged another mistborn, he wouldn't be prepared in advance. Also, I'm doubtful of atium even helping against a steelrunner with enough of a charge since the reaction time and physical movement time would still be well too slow.

Atium improves the mind, allowing the body to  react in time.

[Spoolofwhool]

Just now, The True Survivor said:

Atium improves the mind, allowing the body to  react in time.

There are still limits, and I'm fairly certain steel feruchemy can go well beyond that. Besides, I still addressed the fact that Kelsier wouldn't be burning atium in advance, unless of course he was aware that the keep had a steel compounder.

[Savanorn he/him]

I think there's a game section in the forum? 

But realistically I'd suggest splitting the scenarios into one that allows compounding and one that does not. Maybe give points for style and originality. 

Basically because as the above posters have noted compounding is pretty OP. Personally I think that some compounders are more dangerous than Mistborn. 

Add into this that almost no one in TFE era Scadrial even knows what compounding is, it is even more potent. 

Like Kelsier could come up against Pewter compounder and die right there because he can't reasonably know that he can't block his blows. 

[JUQ he/him]

Okay, let's remove the Compounding aspect.

[Voidus]

Steelrunners can't do much to actually kill him in the timeline of the first trilogy, try to actually punch him while you superspeed and you'll shatter your arm into a thousand pieces. You could very slowly and carefully try to stab him I guess but that'd have to be approaching the limits of how much speed you could tap at once.

[Savanorn he/him]

20 minutes ago, The True Survivor said:

Okay, let's remove the Compounding aspect.

Could also place limits on compounders if you prefer that.

 

4 minutes ago, Voidus said:

Steelrunners can't do much to actually kill him in the timeline of the first trilogy, try to actually punch him while you superspeed and you'll shatter your arm into a thousand pieces. You could very slowly and carefully try to stab him I guess but that'd have to be approaching the limits of how much speed you could tap at once.

Even just a stabbing or caning would seem serviceable. 

But unless I am mistaken we don't fully understand the limits, functions and applications of superspeed. 

Like could an experienced steelrunner tap variable amounts of speed during a single action to limit damage to themself and maximise effect? Would it be practical?

[Spoolofwhool]

4 hours ago, Voidus said:

Steelrunners can't do much to actually kill him in the timeline of the first trilogy, try to actually punch him while you superspeed and you'll shatter your arm into a thousand pieces. You could very slowly and carefully try to stab him I guess but that'd have to be approaching the limits of how much speed you could tap at once.

All the steelrunner would have to do is hold a knife or a sharpened wooden stake and run at him. Right before hitting him, they let go of the piece of wood, sharp end facing him and run around him. The momentum of the stick would probably be enough to go through him. A glass knife would work as well. 

[Voidus]

Maybe if they were particularly careful they could avoid completely ruining the trajectory but then you hit the same problem, you'd have to slow down enough that you're basically wasting the speed. A bow is a much better way to launch a sharp piece of wood than a person is.

[ScarletSabre he/him]

The solution, if we're using Steelrunners, would be to have two of them, and have them carry a chain between them at head/chest height, and clothesline Kelsier into the Cognitive Realm, or just take his head off At that speed, piano wire or harp wire, something sharp and malleable enough to be carried without the awkwardness of two guys carrying a plank of wood on their shoulders, would at the very least cause a deadly injury to Kelsier before he could notice, and he wouldn't have a Steel Bubble up like Wax would to deflect it/warn him of it.

Also, my own mention of guys carrying wood on their shoulders suddenly made me think of Bridge Four.... I wonder what Sadeas would have done with some Steelrunner Bridgemen, or how Steelrunner Bridgemen would be able to carry the chain/plank for an attack like this.... with a few of them we'd have a battering ram hitting with the power of a train.

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

If compounders aren't allowed, I'd probably have 1 (A-tin F-bronze) twinborn on top of the keep (on watch) as well as 4 crashers( waxes type of twinborn), one on each side of the keep.

Then I'd have 3 haze-killer trained (A-pewter F-Iron) twinborn protecting the nobility( who have taken refuge in the keeps center-most room, no windows at all only a thick, barred door).

Finally I'd have 1(A-zinc F-Steel) and 1(A-copper F-Steel) twinborn waiting with the nobility: to hide their alomantic pulses, exude a powerful air of depression, despair, and hopelessness throughout the keep, and to speed all the nobility to safety if kelsier defeats the other three twinborn.

Does this work? Did it at least amuse you? I didn't include an alomantic bronze twinborn because kelsier would be burning copper, in the most-likely scenario, anyway. 

Edited October 7, 2016 by ShadowLord_Lith

[Voidus]

11 hours ago, Rawrbert said:

The solution, if we're using Steelrunners, would be to have two of them, and have them carry a chain between them at head/chest height, and clothesline Kelsier into the Cognitive Realm, or just take his head off At that speed, piano wire or harp wire, something sharp and malleable enough to be carried without the awkwardness of two guys carrying a plank of wood on their shoulders, would at the very least cause a deadly injury to Kelsier before he could notice, and he wouldn't have a Steel Bubble up like Wax would to deflect it/warn him of it.

Also, my own mention of guys carrying wood on their shoulders suddenly made me think of Bridge Four.... I wonder what Sadeas would have done with some Steelrunner Bridgemen, or how Steelrunner Bridgemen would be able to carry the chain/plank for an attack like this.... with a few of them we'd have a battering ram hitting with the power of a train.

That would definitely rip their arms off

[Spoolofwhool]

11 minutes ago, Voidus said:

That would definitely rip their arms off

I agree with Voidus. The equal-opposite reaction-action as a result of the chain hitting Kelsier would rip their arms off. However, if we go back to the idea of letting go of an object right before hitting him with it and apply it to the chain or wire.... then I think we might have something.

Although, with something fine enough, like piano wire as suggested, I'm not sure how much reaction force there would be since it would just slice through Kelsier. I'm not that up-to-date on my slice-people-with-wires-knowledge.

[Voidus]

11 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I agree with Voidus. The equal-opposite reaction-action as a result of the chain hitting Kelsier would rip their arms off. However, if we go back to the idea of letting go of an object right before hitting him with it and apply it to the chain or wire.... then I think we might have something.

Although, with something fine enough, like piano wire as suggested, I'm not sure how much reaction force there would be since it would just slice through Kelsier. I'm not that up-to-date on my slice-people-with-wires-knowledge.

Depends whether or not it catches on any bones I'd say, but then the easy ability of it to cut through flesh cuts both ways cause then even with just a little reaction force it would cut through the hand holding it too.

[Spoolofwhool]

21 minutes ago, Voidus said:

Depends whether or not it catches on any bones I'd say, but then the easy ability of it to cut through flesh cuts both ways cause then even with just a little reaction force it would cut through the hand holding it too.

Just wear metalgloves or thick leather ones. That should be enough I think. 

[Savanorn he/him]

Okay I'll bite. But three questions. 

 

How much atium does Kel have? 

How much does Kel know? Like is this a special assassination for him o "routine" so far as he knows? 

Finally How much time do our twinborns have to store before big K drops by?

 

 

[JUQ he/him]

1 hour ago, Savanorn said:

Okay I'll bite. But three questions. 

 

How much atium does Kel have? 

How much does Kel know? Like is this a special assassination for him o "routine" so far as he knows? 

Finally How much time do our twinborns have to store before big K drops by?

1. Let's say five minutes (if that's okay with you)
2. It's just a routine Keep attack for him
3. Our Twinborns have around three days

[Savanorn he/him]

As to those pointing out the limits of steelrunning, if this action reaction force truly applied how would a person even run or jump? The force of their own limbs hitting the ground (with several times bodyweight behind them) ought to smash their legs apart. 

[Voidus]

19 minutes ago, Savanorn said:

As to those pointing out the limits of steelrunning, if this action reaction force truly applied how would a person even run or jump? The force of their own limbs hitting the ground (with several times bodyweight behind them) ought to smash their legs apart. 

Steelrunning is... weird.
There's all sorts of issues with actually running at those speeds, from friction to hang time to those that you mentioned, presumably feruchemys weirdness comes into it a bit in terms of preventing damage from tapping too much but I believe Brandon has explicitly used steel as an example of the limits of compounding, I don't remember if it was in character or not but there was definitely something about trying to hit someone and breaking your arm, will try to track down a quote on it.

[Savanorn he/him]

1 hour ago, Voidus said:

Steelrunning is... weird.
There's all sorts of issues with actually running at those speeds, from friction to hang time to those that you mentioned, presumably feruchemys weirdness comes into it a bit in terms of preventing damage from tapping too much but I believe Brandon has explicitly used steel as an example of the limits of compounding, I don't remember if it was in character or not but there was definitely something about trying to hit someone and breaking your arm, will try to track down a quote on it.

It is certainly weird. I mean, don't get me wrong, sometimes there's got to besome handwavium. But once you start...

Thanks Void. 

I recall the MAG mentions this, not sure if it is also elsewhere.