Theory: There are 10 types of "proper" Fabrials

[cometaryorbit]

Fabrials are the third magic system on Roshar

 

There should be 10 types of fabrial

Brandon's also said that Roshar could be considered to have 30 magic systems. We know there are 10 Surges, and the Ars Arcanum mentions “the ten levels of Voidbinding”. So that leaves 10 forms of the third system, Fabrials.

The known types

The Ars Arcanum mentions five fabrial types: Augmenter, Diminisher, Conjoiner, Reverser, Alerter.

The Augmenter/Diminisher and Conjoiner/Reverser are paired; the Alerter doesn't seem to have a counterpart. Navani unveils a sixth type near the end of WOR, the Attractor.

New types

Just as how Surges come in pairs, I'd suggest that fabrial types are inherently paired. So we can speculate on the counterparts of the two “unpaired” known types.

The opposite of an Attractor would be a Repeller. Could be used to keep things dry, drive away pests or mold etc., or maybe deflect arrows.

The opposite of an Alerter might be something like a “Jammer”. This might not just block Alerter Fabrials, but also stuff like Spanreed communication.

That leaves two types totally unknown.

EDIT: By "proper" fabrials I mean the things Artifabrians make. Not the "ancient fabrials" like Soulcasters, Oathgates, Shardplate.

Edited October 3, 2016 by cometaryorbit
"proper" vs ancient fabrials

[Yata he/him]

I like this theory, but nothing prevent from "surge" with an hypotetical pair with "void" to be the last the hypotetical 10 types

Edited October 3, 2016 by Yata

[Dahak he/him]

The Authour of the Ars Arcanum appears to believe there is a third more obscure group of ten magical effects and doesn't suggest that they are fabrials, which she regards as more prosaic.

"My research suggests indeed there should be another set of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that is someting entirely different" p1004-5 Way of Kings

[cometaryorbit]

On 10/3/2016 at 2:08 AM, Yata said:

I like this theory, but nothing prevent from "surge" with an hypotetical pair with "void" to be the last the hypotetical 10 types

Thanks!

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the surge/void pairs. If you're suggesting one Surge plus one Voidbinding power, like how Twinborn have Allomancy and Feruchemy, I'm not sure that would be considered a separate system - Twinborn aren't considered a fourth Metallic Art on Scadrial.

 

On 10/4/2016 at 5:47 AM, Dahak said:

The Authour of the Ars Arcanum appears to believe there is a third more obscure group of ten magical effects and doesn't suggest that they are fabrials, which she regards as more prosaic.

"My research suggests indeed there should be another set of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that is someting entirely different" p1004-5 Way of Kings

That's true. However, that Calamity signing WoB says that the three systems are Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and fabrials (and the Old Magic is off on its own). I'm thinking this is one of those early in the books misunderstandings like (Mistborn/Warbreaker spoilers)

Spoiler

there are only 10 Allomantic metals, atium is paired with gold, you have to transfer all Breaths you have at once.

I don't think the AA author realizes what is really going on with Fabrials.

(Nor do we... and I have a feeling this theory is only scratching the surface. Those ancient Surge-using Fabrials - Soulcasters, the Regrowth fabrials, and maybe Oathgates - have got to fit in somewhere. They might be Fabrial/Surgebinding system hacks like Scadrial's Compounding using Allomancy to fuel Feruchemy... or each fabrial type might have a Greater and Lesser version. Maybe Oathgates are super-Conjoiners or something?)

[marianmi]

Maybe soulcasters and Regrowth fabrials are not something "created", but linked somehow to an order's spren. E.g. similar in how the plate is created, they are connected to a radiant's spren, possibly can only be "created" by a max level radiant of a specific order.

Edited October 8, 2016 by marianmi

[Yata he/him]

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the surge/void pairs. If you're suggesting one Surge plus one Voidbinding power, like how Twinborn have Allomancy and Feruchemy, I'm not sure that would be considered a separate system - Twinborn aren't considered a fourth Metallic Art on Scadrial.

Sorry I made mayself Unclear.

You listed in this way the Fabrial type with a pair correlation (order not relevant):

1) Augmenter - Diminisher

2) Conjoiner - Reverser

3) Alerter - (Fabrial not found )

4) Attractor - Repeller

I simply added the surge fabrial to a fifth pair:

5) Surge - Void

This would made ten type (as for your initial hypotesis) of Fabrial divided in 5 pair. Every member of a pair has an effect opposite to the other member.

I call it "Void" thinking about the Voidbining...We don't know nothing of this magic system but maybe if a Fabrial may emulate surgebinding (maybe to not the same extent) may also emulate Voidbinding (to a more unkown extend).

 

To be honest I see some little problem to my own idea, but I think we may put it in the list of possibilities

EDIT: Fixed mistype

Edited October 8, 2016 by Yata

[cometaryorbit]

25 minutes ago, Yata said:

I simply added the surge fabrial to a fifth pair:

5) Surge - Voidi

This would made ten type (as for your initial hypotesis) of Fabrial divided in 5 pair. Every member of a pair has an effect opposite to the other member.

I call it "Void" thinking about the Voidbining...We don't know nothing of this magic system but maybe if a Fabrial may emulate surgebinding (maybe to not the same extent) may also emulate Voidbinding (to a more unkown extend).

Oh okay - the unknown 5th pair being Surgebinding Fabrials (all considered one type) and Voidbinding Fabrials (all considered one type)?

Yeah that could totally work.

[Yata he/him]

7 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Oh okay - the unknown 5th pair being Surgebinding Fabrials (all considered one type) and Voidbinding Fabrials (all considered one type)?

In my idea, yes. After all both (Augmenter - Diminisher) and (Attractor - Repeller) are really a set of Fabrial for different effect

[marianmi]

But that would mean that the surgebinding fabrial needs a kr spren trapped, I don't think that's how soulcasters work, or the regrowth fabrial used in dalinars vision.

[Yata he/him]

10 minutes ago, marianmi said:

But that would mean that the surgebinding fabrial needs a kr spren trapped, I don't think that's how soulcasters work, or the regrowth fabrial used in dalinars vision.

Maybe, but it's not the only possibility.

After all Sugebinding ability is not strictly related to Radiant Spren. Simply the Nahel Bond allow to someone to gain Surgebinding's power. But it's not the only way...whatever metod the Honorblade uses (For months I worked on the idea of Honorblade as Hacked Powerful Fabrial) may be (maybe replicated).

Or for example, Spren are sometime described as "living surges"....Maybe there are Spren who once in a Fabrial may finalize their Surge.

In the end there are also the possibility of a Radiant Spren in the Soulcaster...but I find it very unlikely, this hypotetical Spren have to be a Cryptic or an Ivory's like. And I suppose Pattern or Jasnah would say something about...After all they were all near the Davar's Soulcast for the whole Ship-travel

[marianmi]

No, surgebinding is granted by Honor, through the honorblades he created and the spren he created (with cultivation).

So using any other spren (not created by Honor) for surges should be impossible.

Edited October 8, 2016 by marianmi

[Yata he/him]

Actually Surgebinding as all the Magic Systems is a Manifestation of Investiture. It's indipendent from the Shard's will.

This mean that also if Honor didn't craft the Honorblade (if they are really made by him). The Surgebinding as magic system was alredy there. Simply we don't know how it will manifest without this direct intervention of the Shards.

What I wanted to say, it's we saw at least two way to access the Surges (more specificaly Surgebinding): One is using a Nahel Bond who emulate the Honorblade, another is the Honorblade themself...but we can't say there isn't a third way (maybe the natural one).

I don't want to say "It must be a third way" simply "It could be a third way"

[marianmi]

Investiture comes from a Shard. Shard has total control over the Investiture - I mean who gets access to it. You don't have a "natural" way to get to investiture, either you have a "key" to access it, or you don't. Usually, part of the "key" is a person's "DNA" (an attribute called Identity in Mistborn). The Honorblades are themselves a "key", they're a way to access Honor's Investiture that for anyone as long as they have a spiritual connection to the Honorblade - this means that a person's Identity (which is an aspect of the spiritual realm) is changed by the Honorblade's bond to allow a person to surgebind via Honor - but this is possible only because the Honorblade was created by Honor.

Similarly, the Nahel bond alter's a person's Identity to allow access to the surges. This is again possible because the 10 spren are a "key" made by Honor.

So, any other spren that was not created by Honor cannot modify a person's Identity in a way that allows access to Investiture from Honor => no surgebinding.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to surgebind w/o the 10 spren or the 10 honorblades, but it's extremely hard - for example Hemalurgy (or Forgery) might be required.

Since Odium is not on Roshar, but on another planet, I think that he can't give access to the 10 surges. So this leaves Cultivation. But Cultivation is already invested in the 10 types of spren, and i don't think you have large amount of cultivation spren buzzing around the planet.

Edited October 8, 2016 by marianmi

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, marianmi said:

Investiture comes from a Shard. Shard has total control over the Investiture - I mean who gets access to it.

I don't think that control is always there. On Roshar, Honor is dead, so who's actually controlling it? Stormfather is Tanavast's or Honor's Cognitive Shadow and probably Honor's largest Splinter, but we see in WOR he can't prevent Nahel bonds from forming.

(Major Mistborn First Trilogy spoilers)

Spoiler

Ruin didn't get to prevent his enemies from burning atium - Elend used it in his big battle vs Marsh, who was basically Ruin's champion at the time.

The Shards can do some stuff, though - Preservation caused Atium (and presumably Malatium) Mistings to Snap instead of Cadmium and Bendalloy.

Also, while Surgebinding seems to be primarily Honor's system due to the whole Oath/Bond thing, Cultivation is involved too. Pattern & Wyndle seem to be primarily of Cultivation. Shallan doesn't even use Oaths, just truths.

Edited October 8, 2016 by cometaryorbit
fixed spoiler

[Zeldan he/him]

I always just thought that Fabrials were really just  a way of channeling surges for those without a Nahel bond, similar to a staff in Skyrim, where no innate ability is needed in order to use it, merely filled soul gems/spren trapped inside the gemstone. In this way, I don't believe that Fabrials are the third type of magic, merely a different method of using an existing magic system.

 

[Wandering Investor]

At the end of WoR, Szeth mentions they will face people with "shards" and "power" when referring the fighting his own people. Could the stone shamans have a different set of powers they keep secret? Unless their power revolves around creating the fabrials.

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

At the end of WoR, Szeth mentions they will face people with "shards" and "power" when referring the fighting his own people. Could the stone shamans have a different set of powers they keep secret? Unless their power revolves around creating the fabrials.

They have 7 Honorblades, It's already fit with both "Shards" and "Powers"

[Wandering Investor]

Only if they're well practiced enough to be considered a threat. It could definitely account for the shards part, but the powers part would require bonding the blade and using it. Not impossible, but the blade was given to a truthless, so I would not expect them to use it regularly.

[Yata he/him]

11 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

Only if they're well practiced enough to be considered a threat. It could definitely account for the shards part, but the powers part would require bonding the blade and using it. Not impossible, but the blade was given to a truthless, so I would not expect them to use it regularly.

They are trained to use the Blade as the Shin's culture allows this (by WoB). And usually a truthless doesn't get a Blade, Szeth is a special case (by WoB). 

Probably Szeth was already trained to use the Honorblade when he became a Truthless and I find weird he was the only one. It's possible Szeth (and others were trained to use all the Blades' power) after all Szeth was enough expert of another HonorBlade's powers to believe Kaladin was able to heal thanks to Progression's Surge

Edited November 1, 2017 by Yata

[Gigalemesh he/him]

On 03/10/2016 at 6:48 AM, cometaryorbit said:

Just as how Surges come in pairs, I'd suggest that fabrial types are inherently paired. So we can speculate on the counterparts of the two “unpaired” known types.

Where does the idea that surges come in pairs come from? I haven't seen that anywhere. Unless you are referring to the pairs of surges surgebinders have access to but those are each in two different pairings so I don't see how you can use that to conclude fabrials are paired. That being said some of them do have obvious pairings so it might mean they all do.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Gigalemesh
Spelling

[Calderis he/him]

@Gigalemesh here you go.

Quote

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Do the Honorblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial.

 

[Gigalemesh he/him]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Gigalemesh here you go.

 

Okay thanks, however that still represents a double pairing for each surge, rather than the single pairing of allomancy. Since it's not as simple as a 1-to-1 pairing, that makes it hard to correlate it to a 1-to-1 pairing for anything else.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, that analogy was not terribly good. I still think fabrial types are paired, but yeah, there isn't really much evidence for it.