[Cosmere Spoilers] What to make of the Unmade?

[marianmi]

51 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Last thought. Taravangian's opinion does not make for a good argument I think. I doubt his knowledge of realmatics is anywhere near profound, and I don't think he is even aware of the actual existence of shards and splinters. He just thinks the Unmade are more powerful spren than normal, not that they represent an extension of something greater than that. Also, his actual opinion on them is based from guesswork.

As Mraize said, Taravangian does indeed lacks deep knowledge. However, I was impressed he could predict Wit (well, I think he's referring to Wit):

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But who is the wanderer, the wild piece, the one who makes no sense? I glimpse at his implications, and the world opens to me. I shy back. Impossible. Is it?

Also, he knows about "Investiture", he knows bits about the Nahel Bond:

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One danger in deploying such a potent weapon will be the potential encouragement of those exploring the Nahel bond. Care must be taken to avoid placing these subjects in situations of powerful stress unless you accept the consequences of their potential Investiture.

And he knows Parshendi can obtain power:

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The Parshendi. One of them. Yes they are the missing piece. Push for the Alethi to destroy them outright before this one obtains their power. It will form a bridge.

I am curios what he means by "bridge".

[Spoolofwhool]

3 minutes ago, marianmi said:

As Mraize said, Taravangian does indeed lacks deep knowledge. However, I was impressed he could predict Wit (well, I think he's referring to Wit):

Also, he knows about "Investiture", he knows bits about the Nahel Bond:

And he knows Parshendi can obtain power:

I am curios what he means by "bridge".

None of this says anything about whether he has actual realmatic knowledge, which was my point. Yes he knew about investiture, which is significant and I can't explain it, but still extremely slight. The fact that he knows about the Nahel Bond and the Parshendi forms of power isn't that amazing, it was known in the past and scraps of knowledge have likely persisted and been found in his library. Jasnah after searching figured they held power and he has had longer. In any case, the "bridge" is probably the Everstorm which would bring about the True Desolation.

Whether he referring to Wit is unknown. Also, not too impressive, though fairly. If he did analytically predict the specific actions that could push Jah Keved, it's not untowards that he could've spotted the deviations in the mob mentality over the last few years and figured that there was someone acting with some sort of higher knowledge and guessed he was from another world potentially. However, if he did follow stories and deviations, then chances are that the theory that the wanderer is Mraize may be more likely, as I don't think Hoid has been on Roshar for long enough.

In any case, since it appears we're all agreed on splinters being sentient and self-aware, but not necessarily intelligent, lets move the topic back towards the actual point of this topic, the Unmade. If you want to discuss the facets of the Diagram, as you seem to be, please make another topic.

[cometaryorbit]

"Bridge" - probably a way for Odium to exert power/influence on Roshar. He is not on the planet after all. (Though I am not really sure what that means/why it matters, since the bulk of Shards' being/Investiture is apparently in the Spiritual Realm & distance apparently doesn't matter there.)

It may be the Everstorm, but might be more general. Dalinar's visions refer to "the Everstorm, the True Desolation, the Night of Sorrows". There may be more Odium manifestations coming.

--

As for whether the Parshendi gods are the Unmade: the "Our gods were born splinters of a soul" one seems pretty clear that they are. But that doesn't fit with the others. I'm thinking that the Parshendi understanding of their past is probably missing some key facts - they probably lost a lot while limited to dullform/mateform.

" Tis said it was warm in the land far away
When Voidbringers entered our songs." - WOR Ch 30 Epigraph

I'm thinking that the Listeners had their Rhythms and Forms before Odium and his Unmade ever showed up. Back then their "gods" were probably local spren, spren left by Adonalsium before any of the three Shards arrived or even existed. These were the "gods" that gave them the forms-not-of-power like warform & nimbleform, the ones referred to when the epigraph says stormform "brings the gods their night".

Then the Unmade showed up and offered the Forms of Power with Odium-spren bonding, and the Listeners became Voidbringers. Then their "gods" were the Unmade.

[1stBondsmith he/him]

Thank you for bringing this post to the subject it was written for. I find the same holes in our information as @comentaryorbit just listed, so I still don't know if there is a firm connection between Listener Gods and the Unmade. I still don't know to what degree they are controlled by Odium, and still don't know if they predate his arrival. 

To a few of the other points. It appears, because of what I just stated, that there is little to be gained knowledgewise if they are slivers, splinters, or possessed spren. Their actions remain and their connection tot he Listeners is still cloudy.

I do not believe the Oathpact occurred after Honor's death. What a strange reinterpretation of what I said. I think the Oathpact was made as a deal to limit Oduim and resulted in the death of Honor; giving of himself to protect others.

Prediction for the future... The Unmade: "There going to be big!"

[PallonianFire he/him]

1 hour ago, 1stBondsmith said:

I still don't know to what degree they are controlled by Odium, and still don't know if they predate his arrival. 

Did you miss the WoB about how the Unmade are splinters of Odium? It is impossible that they could predate him. Whether he directly controls them or not is up in the air (I tend to think he doesn't; that he's still constrained on Braize, and he's sort of trusting them to carry out his work while he's stuck).

[1stBondsmith he/him]

Yes, I got the WoB, but I am not fully convinced a splinter is only made of power that becomes self aware. I don't know if a being, most particularly a spren, could become a splinter with high investiture. My example is the Stormfather. If he can, when why not the Unmade? I am nNOT arguing that it happened that way, but that the WoB you are referring to did not limit the way it was done, just that no Human was made into a Splinter. Spren are different.

[Yata he/him]

4 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Yes, I got the WoB, but I am not fully convinced a splinter is only made of power that becomes self aware. I don't know if a being, most particularly a spren, could become a splinter with high investiture. My example is the Stormfather. If he can, when why not the Unmade? I am nNOT arguing that it happened that way, but that the WoB you are referring to did not limit the way it was done, just that no Human was made into a Splinter. Spren are different.

The problem is...that all the Spren are already Splinters. They don't need anything more to become something they already are.

The Stormfather (I will use his Listener name to design his old self as "Rider of the Storm") was a Splinter also before the Tanavast's Shadow Merging (to be honest we don't know of WHO he is a Splinter but there are already tons of topic about). The only "features" the Stormfather has...it to be both a Splinter and a Sliver at the same time. But this only because it is the fusion of a Splinter (Rider of the Storm) and a Sliver's Shadow (Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow).

A Splinter is what the Investiture becomes, when it's not more a Thing but become a Being if you don't like the "standard definition"

Edited October 3, 2016 by Yata

[1stBondsmith he/him]

So, agreeing with and understanding @Yata, can a splinter (even a spren splinter from old Roshar) get enough investiture from Odium to become His splinter now? Could the Unmade, being spren get a massive investiture like other beings on Roshare do, become his Splinters, and carry out his directives? The only reason I even bring this up, instead of just saying "Oh, then they came after Odium came to Roshar, and do his bidding, independently", is that they are referred to as Old Gods, "one will likely betray the rest", and the uncertainty from the Old Songs of the listeners about their roles, quoted by @Spoolofwhool  above. Seems enough there not to dismiss the idea.

[Yata he/him]

Maybe it's possible to "taint" a Splinter with other Investiture (and in the end I think it's what happened to the Rider of the Storm in the early time but as I said there are other topic who talk about the Rider's Origin). But I don't think a similar Spren may be called a Spren of X only because X used his investiture to corrupt it....For example The Radiant Spren has a mixture between H&C's Investiture.

Similarity an Unmade with your Hypotesis would be a mix of Adonalsium and Odium...Not Odium Alone and the WoB explicity states their Status as Splinter of Odium. Often when the there are confused topic, Brandon avoid to give clear answer that point the readers in the wrong way

[PallonianFire he/him]

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So, agreeing with and understanding @Yata, can a splinter (even a spren splinter from old Roshar) get enough investiture from Odium to become His splinter now?

It really sounds like you're misunderstanding what splinters are. Splinters are pieces of Investiture, not something that "gets Investiture" and becomes a splinter. The Unmade are pieces of Odium, which he purposely broke off of himself. It's similar to (but not exactly the same as) Endowment breaking pieces of itself off and giving them to Returned as Divine Breaths.

[1stBondsmith he/him]

I appreciate your patience with me @PallonianFire, I was headed more toward what @Yata just posted. I am positing they were a spren (Investiture from Adonalsium or Cultivation or Honor, or a combination) originally, and that Odium's investiture was added/tainted/modified these original, self-aware investiture we call spren. There is precedence of this given, and some hinted at with other beings. But I happily acknowledge that this may be a bridge too far and that the other may just be the case. There is a lot of information there about them that seems they could be older. If I guess wrong, I happily embrace the correction you provided.

[PallonianFire he/him]

Ah, I see what you meant. I...still don't think that fits with what Brandon said, but I guess we'll have to wait and see. I'm definitely hoping we get more insight in Oathbringer, since it's pretty much guaranteed that we're gonna get a LOT of info on the SF and NW. It would make sense to have the Unmade get a little more page time, too.

[marianmi]

@1stBondsmith I am pretty sure it's impossible to "compound" splinters in the way you described. The only "compounding" I know of is

Spoiler

Ruin+Preservation, and this one was possible by having one person take on 2 shards.

 Otherwise, I am sure someone would be taking on splinters everywhere from all shards, and slowly become Adonalsium.

So I can say pretty sure Odium did not "take over" anything, and the Unmade are broken off him.

Next, the Unmade (or a splinter in general), do not carry on Odium's "directives". They carry on their own "directive" - however, given that they are all "aspects" of hate, they serve Odium by just being what they are (and not by doing what Odium tells them to).

A  point about "taking over" - it looks to me like Honor trusted other people with its power (like the Heralds), whereas Odium does not give its power to people. Instead, looks like Odium works a bit like

Spoiler

Ruin

using his power to <control> people by making them "hate". And it looks like if one of the Unmade can instill "hate" defined as pleasure to kill enemy (the Thrill) in humans , another Unmade can instill something similar in spren. This "taking over" spren (spren that do weird things, and have red eyes) is something like "hate taking over their mind", and not taking over their power/making them a spren of odium/etc...

EDIT: there's also the red lightning spren that are probably spren of Odium, not spren <influenced> by Odium.

Edited October 4, 2016 by marianmi

[Argel he/him]

Reminder: this is the Stormlight Archives forum. Information from other series like Mistborn and Warbreaker are supposed to be in spoilers tags. Or the title could be updated to indicate e.g. "Cosmere Spoilers" (since we have Warbreaker and Mistborn spoilers in this thread). 

Going by the Mistborn End of Era 1 spoiler:

Spoiler

Ruin+Preservation == Harmony example, I would assume that combining splinters from different shards (if possible) would also result in a new Intent reflecting the combination of the source Intents. Given that Rayse is dead-set on keeping his "Odium" Intent pure I cannot imagine him ever doing this.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2016 by Argel

[marianmi]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

Reminder: this is the Stormlight Archives forum. Information from other series like Mistborn and Warbreaker are supposed to be in spoilers tags. Or the title could be updated to indicate e.g. "Cosmere Spoilers" (since we have Warbreaker and Mistborn spoilers in this thread). 

Going by the Mistborn End of Era 1 spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ruin+Preservation == Harmony example, I would assume that combining splinters from different shards (if possible) would also result in a new Intent reflecting the combination of the source Intents. Given that Rayse is dead-set on keeping his "Odium" Intent pure I cannot imagine him ever doing this.

 

right, post updated.

Edited October 4, 2016 by marianmi

[cometaryorbit]

On 10/3/2016 at 8:50 PM, marianmi said:

@1stBondsmith I am pretty sure it's impossible to "compound" splinters in the way you described. The only "compounding" I know of is

  Reveal hidden contents

Ruin+Preservation, and this one was possible by having one person take on 2 shards.

 Otherwise, I am sure someone would be taking on splinters everywhere from all shards, and slowly become Adonalsium.

Well, I know I've seen the theory that (general Cosmere spoilers)

Spoiler

while it's not quite Splinters, Hoid is picking up Investiture/magic systems from all worlds to do something of that general sort.

 

On the original topic...

I'm now thinking the confusion over the Parshendi gods is because the Unmade are actual Splinters of Odium, while there are other spren that predate Odium's arrival and were associated with the Parshendi back then, but were later controlled by Odium or the Unmade. And the Parshendi probably aren't clear on the distinction between the two groups.

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This "taking over" spren (spren that do weird things, and have red eyes) is something like "hate taking over their mind", and not taking over their power/making them a spren of odium/etc...

EDIT: there's also the red lightning spren that are probably spren of Odium, not spren <influenced> by Odium.

I agree that the Unmade or Odium take over spren, but I think the red lightning spren that bond with Parshendi are 'controlled' spren not true Odium spren. I think there's a WOB about Parshendi bonding spren having a 'flaw' for control...

[marianmi]

That control flaw is control of the parshendi, not control of the spren. While indeed we don't know what controlled spren do, it looks to me a stretch and too much of an advantage for odium to take control of a spren that bonds to a parshendi and thus takes control of parshendi.

too complicated

maybe just take control of spren, and that spren does something; and create odium spren that allows control of parshendi - much simpler to folllow