Vindicator Posted September 20, 2016 Posted September 20, 2016 Okay, so I think we all know that the Bands of Mourning are incredibly powerful - but that's not really what I'm interested in. It's the limitations that interest me. If Kelsier created them post-Catacendre, that raises the question of just how many metals are woven into the Bands. We know gold, nicrosil, iron, steel and zinc are inside, but what of the others? Lerasium is unlikely since it all got used up. Atium as well, given that the Pits were destroyed, and Marsh holds the last few bits. From there, we can assume malatium is not in it as well. What about aluminum, though? Or duralumin? Electrum? It doesn't seem like Kelsier learned of them, although Spook could have told him (but he might not have known as well, since there's no reason for a Tineye to really learn about those metals, and he didn't become Mistborn until after the Catacendre). Also, how long did it take for bendalloy and cadmium to be found? Given the possibilities, the Bands of Mourning could very well be more limited than what we see at first glance, and I can see how it might not help against a weaker, but atium-using Mistborn if that happens in the future books.
joey Posted September 20, 2016 Posted September 20, 2016 I am not exactly an expert but it was The Lord Ruler who made the bands, Spoiler Spook was the tineye and Kelsier was always Mistborn after snapping and was killed by The Lord Ruler Since The Lord Ruler came into contact with preservation he presumably knew all of the allomantic metals and he swapped out bendalloy for atium so it could be burned to stop Ruin getting hold of his Shardpool I think.
Vindicator Posted September 20, 2016 Author Posted September 20, 2016 Err... how far have you read into the Bands of Mourning? If you haven't, you shouldn't be reading this, but: Spoiler It's not the Lord Ruler who made them, and all evidence points to Kelsier being the one who did it.
joey Posted September 20, 2016 Posted September 20, 2016 Kelsier wasn't a Feruchemist as well as a Mistborn which he would needed to be to create the Bands and he wouldn't have known of the metals unlike Rashek. I have read it but I didn't see anything that suggests Spoiler That Kelsier made the bands or I may have missed that
Yata he/him Posted September 20, 2016 Posted September 20, 2016 (edited) @joey Actually a lot of proof point to Kelsier as creator (or at leas co-creator) of the BoM. Of course He has not FullBorn's power but He has a Mistborn's helper, a lot of Hemalurgic Spike with Feruchemical Powers and some willing Metalborn who "gift" him their power when their time come to an end. He experimented a lot with Hemalurgy, the only one who may create the Bands of Mourning is Kelsier's team. Edited September 20, 2016 by Yata
Vindicator Posted September 20, 2016 Author Posted September 20, 2016 Well, the Lord Ruler was already dead by then, and he definitely did not create it because of something that we saw in Secret History: Spoiler He chose to 'go Beyond' to the Spiritual Realm after Vin kills him in Mistborn: The Final Empire. That, plus what the figure says in the coppermind Wax obtains from Hoid makes it very unlikely TLR made the Bands. Remember, the original ones were pawned off for the atium.
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted September 20, 2016 Posted September 20, 2016 Starting from the beginning, there is all the spear imagery. Then there is Marasi monologuing about how Kelsier will someday return. Then there was Alik's description of the Sovereign. THEN the whole temple turned out to be a con. Finally, there is the memory in the coppermind which tells us that Kelsier, at the very least, has copper feruchemy. And then there was the note about Secret History. These are just the ones I can recall off the top of my head. Going back to earlier books, Kell had lines in HoA. In AoL it is mentioned that he sometimes appears to his followers. How he got Feruchemy is anyone's guess. My theory is that he got it the way the original Feruchemists did. I also think that involves tapping a Lerasium/Atium alloy and that Harmonium is that alloy. Obviously, that is just conjecture. I doubt it was with hemalurgy though; he doesn't strike me as the type to want to open himself to outside influence unduly.
Vindicator Posted September 20, 2016 Author Posted September 20, 2016 13 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Starting from the beginning, there is all the spear imagery. Then there is Marasi monologuing about how Kelsier will someday return. Then there was Alik's description of the Sovereign. THEN the whole temple turned out to be a con. Finally, there is the memory in the coppermind which tells us that Kelsier, at the very least, has copper feruchemy. And then there was the note about Secret History. These are just the ones I can recall off the top of my head. Going back to earlier books, Kell had lines in HoA. In AoL it is mentioned that he sometimes appears to his followers. How he got Feruchemy is anyone's guess. My theory is that he got it the way the original Feruchemists did. I also think that involves tapping a Lerasium/Atium alloy and that Harmonium is that alloy. Obviously, that is just conjecture. I doubt it was with hemalurgy though; he doesn't strike me as the type to want to open himself to outside influence unduly. He did spike his eye with one though...
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted September 20, 2016 Posted September 20, 2016 One spike. There is a pretty big difference between one and 19. With one he can't be controlled. With three he can be. So the most I'd give him is two. Too many could also mess up his spirit web enough to alter his personality (which I doubt he'd like) and could possibly allow another Shard access to him. I doubt he had too many options with the one we know he has. I also suspect that it does not do what we think it does... because this is Brandon writing and Kelsier acting and nothing is ever simple with either. There is ALWAYS another secret.
Vindicator Posted September 20, 2016 Author Posted September 20, 2016 3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: One spike. There is a pretty big difference between one and 19. With one he can't be controlled. With three he can be. So the most I'd give him is two. Too many could also mess up his spirit web enough to alter his personality (which I doubt he'd like) and could possibly allow another Shard access to him. I doubt he had too many options with the one we know he has. I also suspect that it does not do what we think it does... because this is Brandon writing and Kelsier acting and nothing is ever simple with either. There is ALWAYS another secret. That's true, and given the Bands of Mourning I guess he wouldn't need to spike himself too much. I wonder just how much he learned about Hemalurgy, though. More than TLR ever did? Unlikely, given the millenium Rashek had, but you never know.
Yata he/him Posted September 20, 2016 Posted September 20, 2016 7 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: One spike. There is a pretty big difference between one and 19. With one he can't be controlled. With three he can be. So the most I'd give him is two. Just to say, three Spikes aren't enough to be controlled....4 Spikes at least are needed to control an human being. We have also a WoB who said that the Sovreign's Spike doesn't have nothing of real interesting effect. I may imaginate Kelsier (or whatever he is) doesn't want to lose at all cost that power (maybe Feruchemical Nicrosil to be able to Compound also without BoM) or Feruchemical Alluminium if the theory (with some base) about this power and its impossibility to put it in a Medallion
Savanorn he/him Posted September 20, 2016 Posted September 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Vindicator said: Okay, so I think we all know that the Bands of Mourning are incredibly powerful - but that's not really what I'm interested in. It's the limitations that interest me. If Kelsier created them post-Catacendre, that raises the question of just how many metals are woven into the Bands. We know gold, nicrosil, iron, steel and zinc are inside, but what of the others? Lerasium is unlikely since it all got used up. Atium as well, given that the Pits were destroyed, and Marsh holds the last few bits. From there, we can assume malatium is not in it as well. What about aluminum, though? Or duralumin? Electrum? It doesn't seem like Kelsier learned of them, although Spook could have told him (but he might not have known as well, since there's no reason for a Tineye to really learn about those metals, and he didn't become Mistborn until after the Catacendre). Also, how long did it take for bendalloy and cadmium to be found? Given the possibilities, the Bands of Mourning could very well be more limited than what we see at first glance, and I can see how it might not help against a weaker, but atium-using Mistborn if that happens in the future books. In regards to this, I think Harmony left behind the books with a lot of the information that Rashek tried to suppress...it's easy to imagine Nicrosil and Bendalloy could be in them, I'd almost guarantee aluminium and duralumin would be, as well as electrum. Basically, it's feasible that all sixteen metals were left behind by Harmony. Now, whether Kel would necessarily have access to them so rapidly post end of the world is another matter... 9 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: One spike. There is a pretty big difference between one and 19. With one he can't be controlled. With three he can be. So the most I'd give him is two. Too many could also mess up his spirit web enough to alter his personality (which I doubt he'd like) and could possibly allow another Shard access to him. I doubt he had too many options with the one we know he has. I also suspect that it does not do what we think it does... because this is Brandon writing and Kelsier acting and nothing is ever simple with either. There is ALWAYS another secret. I'd suspect that being Kelsier, he may have just taken the single steel spike. This noted, I think there must be some way to gain feruchemy, just like one can gain allomancy.
Vindicator Posted September 20, 2016 Author Posted September 20, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Savanorn said: In regards to this, I think Harmony left behind the books with a lot of the information that Rashek tried to suppress...it's easy to imagine Nicrosil and Bendalloy could be in them, I'd almost guarantee aluminium and duralumin would be, as well as electrum. Basically, it's feasible that all sixteen metals were left behind by Harmony. Now, whether Kel would necessarily have access to them so rapidly post end of the world is another matter... Yes, I forgot about the Words of Founding. Then again, I'd presume not all the metals are found everywhere, and even knowing they exist doesn't mean the Southerners would have been able to make them (they were in a state of near-destruction when Kelsier first found them). I believe Harmony wanted people to learn and develop on their own as well, so he would have chosen to withhold some things. IIRC, he did this for electricity or something else in SoS or BoM. If it has electrum you could probably sidestep not having atium, though. I am curious now as to what metals are commonplace in southern Scadrial. Edited September 20, 2016 by Vindicator 1
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted September 20, 2016 Posted September 20, 2016 With regards to the WoB; the question was what ability the spike gives Kelsier. I don't think it gives an ability as its primary function. I also don't think it's steel. It has changed the shape of his brain; I don't fell that's nothing important, even though that's a standard side effect. Kelsier ascended for a longer time than Rashek. I suspect he learned a great deal more than he initially realized. Most of that knowledge would not be conscious but it would probably help in connecting dots. It's four, not three? Thanks for the clarification. I still doubt there would be more than two permanent ones though, either to leave a margin for error or so that he could have the leeway to add another if needed.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted September 20, 2016 Posted September 20, 2016 (edited) On the subject of Kelsier's Metal Knowledge: SH Spoiler Spoiler Kelsier held Preservation for a little while, probably longer than TLR did. Spike-wise, Spook had a collection of them from the dead Inquisitors after Vin blew up Kredik Shaw. That doesn't say who used them, but he and Kel together.. know things. Sazed's Note to Spook mentioned more metals, and with Kel's info: Extrapolation: Kelsiers Metal Knowledge removes the trial and error Vin dealt with for duralumin. Spook being the Lord Mistborn, he has the power/authority to get things done. Combine that power with Kel's ambition.. all manner of things could have been achieved. Actually, here's a thought related to the first spoiler tag. The SoScad Medallion Hacks (they aren't as simple to make as I first assumed) Spoiler Whether TLR or Kelsier was the one behind giving them that knowledge, the common denominator is that they both held Preservation. This means that Preservation is likely the source of the extra info.. again. That knowledge reworking the Medallions let people use powers that they don't normally have access to. "Insert clever idea using that once I'm not tired" Edited September 20, 2016 by The One Who Connects Spellcheck
JUQ he/him Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 Regarding Feruchemy, he could have goaded Sazed into giving it to him. It seems like the sort of thing Kelsier would do. 1
Savanorn he/him Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 12 hours ago, The True Survivor said: Regarding Feruchemy, he could have goaded Sazed into giving it to him. It seems like the sort of thing Kelsier would do. Hmmm. Maybe no goading necessary. I can totally see how Harmony, not being prone to intervene, might justify giving Kelsier feruchemy to advance the goals of humans on Scadrial.
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