Shardblade/ copper

[Nightblade]

So I was thinking about Copper Mistings, And copper allows a misting to block Emotional Allomancy and hide from Seekers, If someone is burning copper and someone tries to lash them with surgebinding would the copper cancel the lashing?

[Yata he/him]

There is no reason to this to happen.

But if you want to performe this feat...probably a Alluminium Misting may removes hostile (and not) Investiture's effect

[Pagerunner he/him]

Since you can still steelpush on an item in a coppercloud, I would think no. Copper has a very specific effect of blocking Allomantic pulses, not stopping all Allomantic power. IIRC, it can be used to hide from an Awakener's Lifesense, though, and now that I think about it I wonder if it could be used to keep someone from imprinting on a primer cube... so there are some specialized applications, but I think they're a little more specific than what you've proposed.

[PantsForSquares he/him]

On 9/9/2016 at 3:12 PM, Yata said:

There is no reason to this to happen.

But if you want to performe this feat...probably a Alluminium Misting may removes hostile (and not) Investiture's effect

Horrifyingly enough, the Aluminum Misting would only be able to cancel the effects of the Investiture. If you quickly Lashed an Aluminum Misting to the sky, and they burn off the Investiture, they're still going to have to deal with the fact that they're essentially being shot through the air.

And it since it wouldn't affect the consequences of Surges, Windrunners, Skybreakers and Dustbringers can deal with them fairly easily (Gravitation shenanigans for the first two, and setting them on fire for the third). I'm not sure how it would interact with Soulcasting, however.

Edited September 10, 2016 by PantsForSquares

[Yata he/him]

Yeah also if someone with a decent reflex may burn Alluminium in the first seconds...it will not be a great fall.

About the Soulcasting I imagine that feruchemical Alluminium is a great defence aganist it. Maybe also the allomantical one...if you dischage the Investiture pushed into you to made you change (but I am unsure)

[PantsForSquares he/him]

15 hours ago, Yata said:

Yeah also if someone with a decent reflex may burn Alluminium in the first seconds...it will not be a great fall.

About the Soulcasting I imagine that feruchemical Alluminium is a great defence aganist it. Maybe also the allomantical one...if you dischage the Investiture pushed into you to made you change (but I am unsure)

Not quite. If you rapidly Lash (see: Szeth vs. Dalinar) someone, you're still giving them some initial velocity. Basic free-fall physics tells you that the maximum height achieved by an object thrown upwards depends upon its initial velocity in the upwards direction (and air resistance, I suppose). Angle it right, and you can just shoot them up into the air, and burning aluminum isn't really going to do much about it. They'd have to be burning aluminum while someone tried to Lash them, or otherwise cut off the Lash really early on.

I'd imagine that tapping an aluminummind, instead of storing into it, might act as a defense against Soulcasting. Strengthening your Identity might act as some sort of buffering effect against Soulcasting. Storing in a Nicrosilmind is a bit sketchy, but it might also work.

[BrightVoid he/him]

But of course you are not considering a constant aluminum burn, that would make you unlashable.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

28 minutes ago, BrightVoid said:

But of course you are not considering a constant aluminum burn, that would make you unlashable.

i thought the aluminum would use itself up. Maybe the Inquisitors just fed Vin a small amount of it.
On that thought, you could dispel Investiture without being wasteful by using Aluminum pills

[PantsForSquares he/him]

2 hours ago, BrightVoid said:

But of course you are not considering a constant aluminum burn, that would make you unlashable.

Definitely. The downside, of course, is that a supply of aluminum isn't infinite - whereas Stormlight is far easier to come by. If you could pre-empt getting Lashed, then it might work.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that Allomancers are, for the most part, at a large disadvantage against Surgebinders. There are a few powers that are incredibly strong against Surgebinders, but there are only five I can think of: Bronze (if they can sense Surgebinding), Pewter (physical augmenting), Chromium (Cause them to lose Stormlight upon touch? Hellacious!), Aluminum (prevents direct effects), and Bendalloy (I'm really curious to see how this interacts against a Shardblade).

A full Mistborn with full reserves of all 16 metals can probably tackle a fledgeling Radiant with creative use of their powers. Atium burns would leverage a serious advantage, but that's limited in the time of Stormlight/Era 2. For the most part, however, a Mistborn is going to be far more well-rounded than any given Radiant.

[Spoolofwhool]

4 minutes ago, PantsForSquares said:

Definitely. The downside, of course, is that a supply of aluminum isn't infinite - whereas Stormlight is far easier to come by. If you could pre-empt getting Lashed, then it might work.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that Allomancers are, for the most part, at a large disadvantage against Surgebinders. There are a few powers that are incredibly strong against Surgebinders, but there are only five I can think of: Bronze (if they can sense Surgebinding), Pewter (physical augmenting), Chromium (Cause them to lose Stormlight upon touch? Hellacious!), Aluminum (prevents direct effects), and Bendalloy (I'm really curious to see how this interacts against a Shardblade).

A full Mistborn with full reserves of all 16 metals can probably tackle a fledgeling Radiant with creative use of their powers. Atium burns would leverage a serious advantage, but that's limited in the time of Stormlight/Era 2. For the most part, however, a Mistborn is going to be far more well-rounded than any given Radiant.

This is true. Really, the most determining factor in a fight between a mistborn and a surgebinder is resource. How much they have access to what lets them use their abilities. 

Question though is whether chromium (and nicrosil) would affect other manifestations of investiture as well. We know that aluminium is special in that it nullifies most manifestations of investiture. We don't know, however, whether chromium is the same, and would be able to leech from a surgebinder, for example. 

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

It depends on how you approach the problem:

Allomancy is very low powered but also more versatile; they aren't restricted by resource providing they have ready access to their metal, which on most Shardworlds isn't too much of an issue, + they aren't using an external fuel source to power their abilities.

Surgebinders/Radiants are much stronger in terms of Investiture potential and force, but they're also bound by Oaths, so their applications of their powers are a little limited + are hindered by a geographically based resource.

In terms of realmatic theory, I'd say copper hides/shields the cognitive identity of things and as Shardbladescut on all three realms, it wouldn't be immune...bendalloy and cadmium bubbles could be a different story

[Spoolofwhool]

31 minutes ago, AnanasSpren said:

In terms of realmatic theory, I'd say copper hides/shields the cognitive identity of things and as Shardbladescut on all three realms, it wouldn't be immune...bendalloy and cadmium bubbles could be a different story

Spren shardblades and honorblades can only cut spiritual and physical. Only Nightblood, that we know of, can cut all three realms.

[Yata he/him]

8 hours ago, PantsForSquares said:

Not quite. If you rapidly Lash (see: Szeth vs. Dalinar) someone, you're still giving them some initial velocity. Basic free-fall physics tells you that the maximum height achieved by an object thrown upwards depends upon its initial velocity in the upwards direction (and air resistance, I suppose). Angle it right, and you can just shoot them up into the air, and burning aluminum isn't really going to do much about it. They'd have to be burning aluminum while someone tried to Lash them, or otherwise cut off the Lash really early on.

It's off topic but a Lashing is not a "object thrown upwards" but actually a free falling. You don't start with an initial velocity but instead with an initial acceleration (that remain costanct as long as the lash lasts).

in the first second after being infused the subject would accelerate (thanks to the accelation of 6.86 m/s^2) from 0 to 3,43 m/s (12 Km/h) on Roshar and then continue to go faster...of course I didn't considerate friction and double/triple Lashes.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

18 hours ago, PantsForSquares said:

Not quite. If you rapidly Lash (see: Szeth vs. Dalinar) someone, you're still giving them some initial velocity. Basic free-fall physics tells you that the maximum height achieved by an object thrown upwards depends upon its initial velocity in the upwards direction (and air resistance, I suppose).

Quote

Per the Coppermind: Gravitation Surge can be manipulated by the Surgebinder to alter the direction and strength of an object's gravitational attraction.^[18]

It's still free-fall, but it's falling due to gravity rather than being thrown. You are correct that it would depend on when they burn aluminum to cancel it, but it is less initial velocity than what you seem to be assuming. Granted, multiple Lashings could increase the starting acceleration, but they would all be cancels at the same time.

[PantsForSquares he/him]

5 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It's still free-fall, but it's falling due to gravity rather than being thrown. You are correct that it would depend on when they burn aluminum to cancel it, but it is less initial velocity than what you seem to be assuming. Granted, multiple Lashings could increase the starting acceleration, but they would all be cancels at the same time.

I was kind of referring to the "initial velocity" that would be left upon cancellation. Burning aluminum does nothing to cancel that, and a Windrunner/Skybreaker could just pump all their Stormlight into a single, massive Lash. Even if the Aluminum Gnat was able to cancel it, it would still send them hurtling. Probably shouldn't have used "initial velocity" as the term, though, but if this was being solved as a physics problem, the velocity at cancellation would be treated as such.

Also, weirdly enough, due to the dependence upon t^2, the best way to survive a super-lash would be cancelling it before 1 second.

[Sarevok]

On 11-9-2016 at 6:08 AM, PantsForSquares said:

The more I think about it, the more I realize that Allomancers are, for the most part, at a large disadvantage against Surgebinders. There are a few powers that are incredibly strong against Surgebinders, but there are only five I can think of: Bronze (if they can sense Surgebinding), Pewter (physical augmenting), Chromium (Cause them to lose Stormlight upon touch? Hellacious!), Aluminum (prevents direct effects), and Bendalloy (I'm really curious to see how this interacts against a Shardblade).

I would think iron and steel would help a bunch too. A hail of coins would be deadly to a knight without armour (we don't yet know if all orders get armour, do we?) and probably some annoyance to one with armour. An unaware knight might also carry metal on his/her body that the mistborn could push/pull on.

[PantsForSquares he/him]

6 minutes ago, Sarevok said:

I would think iron and steel would help a bunch too. A hail of coins would be deadly to a knight without armour (we don't yet know if all orders get armour, do we?) and probably some annoyance to one with armour. An unaware knight might also carry metal on his/her body that the mistborn could push/pull on.

All of the Orders had access to Shardplate, but not all of Knights used it.

Source:

Quote

Question

Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate.

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by PantsForSquares

[Spoolofwhool]

 

37 minutes ago, Sarevok said:

I would think iron and steel would help a bunch too. A hail of coins would be deadly to a knight without armour (we don't yet know if all orders get armour, do we?) and probably some annoyance to one with armour. An unaware knight might also carry metal on his/her body that the mistborn could push/pull on.

The investiture of the shardplate might interfere with the metal a KR is holding within. Also, I doubt there would be much metal they would be carry, other than a few trinkets. Money is probably the largest source of metal someone might carry, though not so much in some areas now, and Roshar doesn't use metal money. 

[Savanorn he/him]

I agree with the aforementioned guys, copper doesn't really defend against attacks and so there is little reason for it to start with shardblades. 

On the note of Allomancy v other magic system. . . 

Mistborn are easily the most versatile magic wielders we have seen and only would become more so as new metals are discovered. If only because they're gifted with such a spread of powers. 

It would be like if a single Radiant had all ten surges. 

I will note though that provided with a decent supply of stormlight I don't think coinshots would be very helpful at all, not offensively at least, Szeth could happily tank stabs with spears and Kal and Shall survived ridiculous falls. Hell, Jasnah is impaled right through the heart. 

The surgebinder V allomancer debate is largely one of available investiture and knowledge. But it is also limited by what we know of the Surges (which is still extremely limited). 

I mean, lack of mutual knowledge greatly bias the match in favour of the surgebinder. Realistically they may simply appear unkillable to a mistborn with no knowledge or special weapons (daggers and coins alone would seem to lack the potency) and even with some atium it is entirely possible a mistborn might land a good "killshot" only to see the surgebinder recover with shocking speed. It also seems to me that the order of strength and speed granted by even a very limited intake of stormlight is considerably greater than that granted by allomantic pewter. 

The final thought I have is in regard to multiple lashings via stormlight in the case of a Windrunner or Skybreaker, but, presuming Serg the Surgebinder can lay hands on Allen the Allomancer (or Mandy the Mistborn) couldnt they just throw a ridiculous amount of stormlight into a lashing, say, ten times normal gravity toward the ground or something. 

This would easily overpower the steelpush and generate an impact the mistborn cannot heal from. 

I would be nore interested in Feruborn matchups v Surgebinders though. 

Like full Ferrochemist  with a stack of metalminds against Szeth. (Or maybe Second Ideal Kaladin).

 

[Yata he/him]

But you have to remember that a Mistborn itself is hard to infuse with Surges' Stormlight while he burns metals....Of course this doesn't give any kind of protection aganist object throwed to them but the Allomancer himself is hard to be directly affect by Investiture (as also another Radiant)

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, Yata said:

But you have to remember that a Mistborn itself is hard to infuse with Surges' Stormlight while he burns metals....Of course this doesn't give any kind of protection aganist object throwed to them but the Allomancer himself is hard to be directly affect by Investiture (as also another Radiant)

Possibly, but I think allomancy is a lot more of a lesser investiture magic than surgebinding so the kinetic investiture gained from burning metals might still allow for some room toinfuse them. It would definitely be harder, but I don't think it would be as hard as another Radiant with stormlight.

[Ari he/him]

On 10/09/2016 at 8:09 AM, Nightblade said:

So I was thinking about Copper Mistings, And copper allows a misting to block Emotional Allomancy and hide from Seekers, If someone is burning copper and someone tries to lash them with surgebinding would the copper cancel the lashing?

I would theorise that Copper blocks any kinetic cognitive Investiture aimed within the cloud, given its effect on emotional allomancy and potentially on lifesense. Given that all of the Rosharan Surges are physical, it wouldn't block any of them.

Now, if you wanted to block a Lashing, I would suggest an Aluminium shield (which blocks all kinetic investiture) or as above, an Invested artifact. (for which kinetic investiture must be a degree of magnitude stronger than the Invested object)