Surgebinding While Using Shardplate

[Jaconis]

1 hour ago, Sand Master said:

As for the steelpushing argument, I think there may be a misunderstanding going on. Both the ground and the air push back on the coin with the same amount of force that the coin pushes on them, not with the amount of force that the steelpush puts on the coin. The coin doesn't need a lot of force to push on the air and move it. The ground, on the other hand, can take (and therefore provide) much more force. It's the same as if you were trying to physically push something through the air, as opposed to straight down. Moving your hand through the air doesn't push you back, does it? You have friction with the ground, and even if you didn't, your inertia would keep you from moving very much anyway. But if you push against the ground, you go up. That's how push-ups are possible. Steelpushing is basically just a really long arm that pushes on things.

I don't want to hijack this thread more than I already have, so this will be my last post on the matter.

The air or ground behind the coin make no difference to Newton's Third Law. An allomancer exerts a force on the coin, that coin exerts an equal and opposite force on the allomancer. When an allomancer pushes on a coin with just enough force to move it, they wouldn't move. This is because the force required to move a small mass like the coin does not generate enough acceleration on a much larger mass like an allomancer to cause movement. This is true whether there is the ground or a building behind the coin, assuming the allomancer is still pushing with the same amount of force. What changes is the mass being pushed. With the force staying the same, the mass has increased significantly, so acceleration has become nothing. This is what's important, the same force is applied to the allomancer as before. This means that since that force wasn't enough to move him before, it's not enough to move him now. If the force pushing against coin and ground is enough to move the allomancer, unless the push changes in magnitude, he should move just pushing on the coin. This is how rocket ships work. The engines push downwards with an enormous continuous force, and the rocket sees an equal and opposite force upward. If you needed something to push against, a rocket would stop accelerating as soon as it left the ground, but it doesn't. It keeps going, and uses the same principle in space as well. 

Another example is firing a gun. You pull the trigger, gun powder ignites, explodes, and pushes on the bullet with a large burst of force. There is an equal and opposite force exerted on the gun, which is why you get recoil. The bullet is tiny, so it has a huge acceleration, but the gun has much more mass, and therefore accelerates significantly less. If the way the mistborn physics seem to be were real, there would be no recoil, no equal and opposite force, unless you were shooting against something massive like the ground. 

[Jondesu]

27 minutes ago, Jaconis said:

I don't want to hijack this thread more than I already have, so this will be my last post on the matter.

The air or ground behind the coin make no difference to Newton's Third Law. An allomancer exerts a force on the coin, that coin exerts an equal and opposite force on the allomancer. When an allomancer pushes on a coin with just enough force to move it, they wouldn't move. This is because the force required to move a small mass like the coin does not generate enough acceleration on a much larger mass like an allomancer to cause movement. This is true whether there is the ground or a building behind the coin, assuming the allomancer is still pushing with the same amount of force. What changes is the mass being pushed. With the force staying the same, the mass has increased significantly, so acceleration has become nothing. This is what's important, the same force is applied to the allomancer as before. This means that since that force wasn't enough to move him before, it's not enough to move him now. If the force pushing against coin and ground is enough to move the allomancer, unless the push changes in magnitude, he should move just pushing on the coin. This is how rocket ships work. The engines push downwards with an enormous continuous force, and the rocket sees an equal and opposite force upward. If you needed something to push against, a rocket would stop accelerating as soon as it left the ground, but it doesn't. It keeps going, and uses the same principle in space as well. 

Another example is firing a gun. You pull the trigger, gun powder ignites, explodes, and pushes on the bullet with a large burst of force. There is an equal and opposite force exerted on the gun, which is why you get recoil. The bullet is tiny, so it has a huge acceleration, but the gun has much more mass, and therefore accelerates significantly less. If the way the mistborn physics seem to be were real, there would be no recoil, no equal and opposite force, unless you were shooting against something massive like the ground. 

With both rockets and guns, the force applied is momentary (just repeated very very often in the case of the rocket). The Steelpush, on the other hand, is a constant force being applied, even though the Allomancer and the coin aren't in physical contact. The push-up metaphor used earlier is very apt, or I've seen it described like a piston. That completely changes the dynamic and the way the force is translated to movement compared to a gun or rocket.

jW

[Jaconis]

Going back to the actual topic of this thread, something I didn't think of to support the feedback loop theory:

When a muggle (non-Radiant) uses shardplate, they get the benefits of holding stormlight without the surgebinding, i.e. increased speed and strength. To me, this lends credence to the feedback loop theory in particular. The infused gems feed the plate (spren) who then feed it back to the wearer, providing them with the increased strength and speed shardplate is famous for. They wouldn't be able to surgebind, as that requires a spren bond to give you access to the surges to manipulate, but the investiture could still enhance the user, even without a bond. 

This doesnt help my theory (that living plate feeds the Radiant), as in theory the Radiant would act in place of the gems in living plate, but the feedback loop theory in general helps with the question of where the radiant gets the mass of stormlight needed for larger battles. Or rather, it would help them not waste any. Combined with the fact that Kaladin seems to have gotten an efficiency upgrade with each level up, a full Radiant could potentially need very little stormlight to be sustained for a long time. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Jaconis