Natural Fabrials: Symbiosis on Roshar

[Blightsong]

54 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

I can see a reading of it that interprets it as they know what's up, but I don't think it is the case. If it were, they wouldn't have decided that stormform was a good idea. I think that is shown well by them thinking it is a betrayal... that makes no sense. They didn't stop forming bonds with the Listeners. The spren basically just entered a new business relation. The listeners didn't even have a monopoly on them in the first place. 'The spren betrayed us, they bonded with that chull over there!

This reasoning doesn't make sense to me. Knowledge that they cannot form Spren bonds and why does not equal knowledge that story form was a bad idea (although Eshonai's sister straight up did know what Stormform would do and still thought it was a good idea). It also doesn't say that they thought it was a betrayal, but rather that Listeners "Often felt" that it was a betrayal. Someone can feel someway and have it not be true. I could easily see how Listeners would feel that way, beings that they evolved along side suddenly abandoning them for foreigners. They know, logically, that it is because Spren need beings that exist more in the physical realm to form a Nahel bond, but that doesn't change the feeling of betrayal.

 

54 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

For your second point, I understand that Nahel bonding was possible as soon as H/C invested, but none occurs until after the Heralds were created. Then the spren were like hey that's cool, maybe these other humans can do this too if we go help them. BoM spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

just like those unkeyed feruchemical stores. Wayne didn't realize there was anything in that gold mind until he perceived it as such.

perhaps the same thing is going on with the spren. Until they think they can bond with the Listeners, they can't actually do it. Which makes a ton of sense anyway seeing as they are Cognitive entities, they need to slightly change their Cognitive aspect to be able to do it. Brandon has said that everyone on Roshar would tell you it is impossible, not that it can't be done.

Besides all that, there isn't anything different about them now that would allow it. The Listeners have always been what they are. I don't think anything has changed to let them get a Nahel bond. They were always able, they just didn't know it.

 

 We only know that Shardblades didn't exist exist before Spren saw and copied Honorblades, this does not mean that they never formed Bonds. As seen with Seons, the splinter's ability to transform into a Shardblade is not a prerequisite for a bond. We also know that Spren never copied the Nahel bond from Honorblades because Honorblades don't actually form bonds, this is a misconception.

 

I understand that the whole "they couldn't do it until they thought they could" thing might be the case, as this concept is key to the Cosmere's overall magic system, but it doesn't logically or logistically make sense that they wouldn't have figured out that they can long ago. It's not like all these sapient Spren are just roaming nomads, they have societies, social structures, and cities in the cognitive realm. We also know they have scholars that likely know much more about realmatics than we currently do, scholars that had thousands upon thousands of years to figure this out. If they could have figured it out, they would have. Also, if it was possible don't you think that one of the Shards would have told them by now? We know that Vessels gain a grand knowledge over the laws of the universe and of their magic systems, so why wouldn't they have informed the Spren that they could bond with Listeners. It certainly would have helped in defeating Odium.

 

I just think that it wouldn't make sense for this to be possible without the Spren knowing by now, and there is in-text evidence that what I think is the case. The quote from the Listener's song pretty much spells out what I'm saying, and I don't really think there is a reason for Brandon to have put that in the chapter headings if it was false information. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Djarskublar]

Fair point about the scholars. I hadn't thought of them.

On the other hand, don't you think a bonded spren would end up becoming a shardshield or something in a moment of extreme stress to protect their bonded human? Or that spren scholars would have explored the limits of the bond and discovered that they could manifest in that manner? The spren could already bond with the Listeners anyway, why would they look to see if there was yet another way they could bond with Listeners? (or humans for that matter)

Maybe the spren originally thought that because the humans weren't native to Roshar, they couldn't bond with them in a meaningful way. Then they just stuck to that tradition until they saw Honorblades and were like 'hey wait, maybe these humans aren't useless after all.'

I have no reason to believe a Vessel would have told them. When has a Vessel told anyone anything useful? Sazed explained a couple things after his Ascension, but by no means did he say much about even allomancy and feruchemy, let alone Hemalurgy. He didn't give the people the tech they didn't know about either. He is disappointed that people haven't discovered the radio yet, but he isn't telling. On Roshar, by your logic, Cultivation would have warned everyone that the desolations were not over. It took until a few years before they were back for the Stormfather to start showing visions to relevant people. I do not believe the Shards would have told anyone anything about their magic systems.

There are simply more questions than answers right now. We can only guess. The spren scholars simultaneously kinda break both our arguments, but one of us has to be correct here, right? It seems like a pretty binary proposition.

And I'm sure Brandon has no problem putting misinformation in the chapter headings. Mistborn has been one long stream of half truths so far.

[Blightsong]

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

Fair point about the scholars. I hadn't thought of them.

On the other hand, don't you think a bonded spren would end up becoming a shardshield or something in a moment of extreme stress to protect their bonded human?

They do do that, here is a quote from WoR during Kaladin and Szeth's fight, "Mist formed in Kaladin's left hand as he raised it to ward, and a silvery shield appeared, glowing softly with light."

 

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

The spren could already bond with the Listeners anyway, why would they look to see if there was yet another way they could bond with Listeners? (or humans for that matter)

We have not seen a Listener bond a Sentient Spren, it way not even be possible. This is a bit like saying "Animals could already fly, why would humans study aviation".

 

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

Maybe the spren originally thought that because the humans weren't native to Roshar, they couldn't bond with them in a meaningful way. Then they just stuck to that tradition until they saw Honorblades and were like 'hey wait, maybe these humans aren't useless after all.'

Maybe, except that from what we have heard from Syl can lead us to believe that they are able to naturally know if they can or cannot bond with certain humans. Syl was attracted to Kalladin purely by instinct. There is no reason to assume that this wouldn't be the case before Honorblades. How would Honorblades have tipped them off that they could bond humans anyways? Like my WoB above proves, the Honorblades don't actually involve a bond. All the Honorblades would have proved is that Humans can use magic, which they probably already knew, not that it involved Spren in any way.

 

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

I have no reason to believe a Vessel would have told them. When has a Vessel told anyone anything useful? Sazed explained a couple things after his Ascension, but by no means did he say much about even allomancy and feruchemy, let alone Hemalurgy. He didn't give the people the tech they didn't know about either. He is disappointed that people haven't discovered the radio yet, but he isn't telling. On Roshar, by your logic, Cultivation would have warned everyone that the desolations were not over. It took until a few years before they were back for the Stormfather to start showing visions to relevant people. I do not believe the Shards would have told anyone anything about their magic systems.

 

Spoiler

We know from secret history that a shard can't directly speak into a human's mind, but can only send vague messages.

This seems to be different from Spren, however, as the Stoemfather was able to directly speak to Syl and Syl indirectly says that the Stormfather is in contact with Spren (by saying that he told them not to bond with humans anymore). It seems Honor is also trying to do exactly what you are saying by sending messages to people in the Highstorms that say that the desolation are not over. Bringing this back to the the Listeners, it would heavily be in Honor and Cultivations interest to tell the Spren if they could bond with Listeners. It would have given them influence among them and generally helped in the desolations. Similarly, Sazed has given Wax information to help him in his schemes.

 

Cultivation specifically seems to have given up, as Wyndle has said, so think on that as you will.

 

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

And I'm sure Brandon has no problem putting misinformation in the chapter headings. Mistborn has been one long stream of half truths so far.

I'm sure that Brandon wouldn't mind doing this, but it wouldn't make sense in the story for the Listeners to have decided to put some crack pot theory in their songs. There is no reason for that information to be there if it isn't factual.

 

The evidence in the quote may not be 100% confimed but at least it's actually based in the text and is presented as fact. Your major quote (the one from Brandon about it not being impossible) doesn't actually confirm or deny what you are saying, you just get that vibe from it.

[Spoolofwhool]

Another point to consider is that it has been stated, though I can't recall how explicitly, that the spren chose to nahel bond with humans instead of listeners. This is, afterall, what led the listeners to join Odium's forces against them. Now while it's possible that the spren chose humans because listeners weren't compatible, I honestly don't think so. WoB does loosely indicate that listeners are compatible. However, bonding with a listener will more than likely result in something different than a human who bonds with the same spren. Possibly still a surgebinder, though perhaps controlling different surges, or being able to control the ones differently.  

Overall, like everything else Roshar, there really isn't enough information to form a concise theory.

[Blightsong]

10 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Another point to consider is that it has been stated, though I can't recall how explicitly, that the spren chose to nahel bond with humans instead of listeners. This is, afterall, what led the listeners to join Odium's forces against them. Now while it's possible that the spren chose humans because listeners weren't compatible, I honestly don't think so. WoB does loosely indicate that listeners are compatible. However, bonding with a listener will more than likely result in something different than a human who bonds with the same spren. Possibly still a surgebinder, though perhaps controlling different surges, or being able to control the ones differently.  

Overall, like everything else Roshar, there really isn't enough information to form a concise theory.

Do you have a source for this, I don't think it was the Sprens choice.