Natural Fabrials: Symbiosis on Roshar

[Blightsong]

Introduction

In the Unified Theory of Roshar post started by Djarskublar there was some discussion of the origin of different magic systems on Roshar. This discussion gave me some thoughts on the origin of Fabrials, and my conclusion was this; Fabrials as a magic system have existed long before Honor and Cultivation arrived.

 

Adonalsium and Roshar

We know that Adonalsium created Roshar, Listeners, as well as Highstorms. Especially with his creation of Highstorms, it seems to me like he invested Roshar very heavily during his creation of it, and because Highstorms remained we can sure that it remained heavily invested after he left. This makes me believe that he must have manifested a magic system, and it seems very likely to me that that system uses Fabrials, a theory supported by the fact that he basicly shaped the life on Roshar to be living Fabrials.

 

Life on Roshar

 

All life on Roshar that utilize Spren to seem to have gemhearts and gain unnatural abilities from their symbiosis. They also seem to use investiture by going out in Highstorms to transform. This seems far beyond what we have seen on planets that don't have high levels of investiture (example being Threnody) or magic systems. This system of using gems to trap and gain powers from Spren is exactly like what we have seen from Fabrials science, and it has been going on way longer than Shards have even existed.

 

Conclusion

This idea on Fabrials makes a lot more sense to me than any other theories I've seen on it. It's Initiation isn't really in line any of the other shards, or any mixture of them. Let me know what you guys think.

 

 

 

 

[Yata]

I agree with this idea. It is one of the doubtful point in my Roshar's Theory.

The Fabrial system seems to  have more in common with a minor Shardworld magic than a major one. a Fabrial is something a user interacts rather than a magic used by the user. As example a Fabrial has not any kind of willing intent to be activate and this is a pretty anomany in Cosmere's magic.

I like a lot your metaphor of Roshar's liveform as living Fabrial, it work and it's pretty awesome to imagine. May I re-use some of your ideas in my theory ?

[Blightsong]

45 minutes ago, Yata said:

The Fabrial system seems to  have more in common with a minor Shardworld magic than a major one. a Fabrial is something a user interacts rather than a magic used by the user. As example a Fabrial has not any kind of willing intent to be activate and this is a pretty anomany in Cosmere's magic.

I would agree, but Hemallurgy works in similar ways. You can spike something into someone else, and while still having used the magic system, your spirit web hasn't been directly affected by it. Also, Brandon refers to it as a full magic system so that's what I'm basing the idea of it being one off of.

48 minutes ago, Yata said:

May I re-use some of your ideas in my theory ?

Sure, go for it.

[Yata]

13 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

I would agree, but Hemallurgy works in similar ways. You can spike something into someone else, and while still having used the magic system

Yes but to create a Spike you need a willing Intent. Once the Hemalurgic Spike is made, it's already an vector of magic.

While in the Fabrial tech, you may (ok you need an very higher techology but it's just an example) take a industrial machine who cuts in the right way a gem, than the machine places the gem where in some time a Spren would be captured and after that put the gem in the metal framework build by the machine itself (while the gem is try to catch a Spren). To activate a Fabrial it seems there isn't a true need of human interaction, just to set some metal parts in the right configuration.

PS: While I was figuring this process I had an flash of inspiration. The Artifabrial are quite Pokemon Trainer 

Edited August 22, 2016 by Yata

[Blightsong]

15 minutes ago, Yata said:

Yes but to create a Spike you need a willing Intent. Once the Hemalurgic Spike is made, it's already an vector of magic.

While in the Fabrial tech, you may (ok you need an very higher techology but it's just an example) take a industrial machine who cuts in the right way a gem, than the machine places the gem where in some time a Spren would be captured and after that put the gem in the metal framework build by the machine itself (while the gem is try to catch a Spren). To activate a Fabrial it seems there isn't a true need of human interaction, just to set some metal parts in the right configuration.

PS: While I was figuring this process I had an flash of inspiration. The Artifabrial are quite Pokemon Trainer 

Are you sure that one doesn't need intent to be able to capture a Spren? I'm not sure if we have found that out yet. I think a good example in favor of my theory (if Listener forms and Fabrials magic are similar) is that Listeners need to adopt a certain mind set to be able to bond a new Spren.

 

edit: Thinking about this I'm more and more certain that intent is needed to create a Fabrial. We have never seen a Spren accidentally trap itself in a gemstone, and it would seem like a fairly large thing to leave out of the story up until now to not show this if it were possible.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Blightsong

[Yata]

I have not reference for this. But from the informations, seems that a specific cut is able to capture a specific spren and only the Artifabrian (and later the Listener) developed the method (but the Listeners may have some spy as Artifabrian's Slave and they simply stole gem or informations)

Edited August 22, 2016 by Yata

[Blightsong]

17 minutes ago, Yata said:

I have not reference for this. But from the informations, seems that a specific cut is able to capture a specific spren and only the Artifabrian (and later the Listener) developed the method (but the Listeners may have some spy as Artifabrian's Slave and they simply stole gem or informations)

A specific cut is needed, but that doesn't mean intent isn't. Similar to how you need to spike the right place in hemallurgy, but still need intent.

 

Brandon's quote on Rosharan magic systems:

INTERVIEW: Feb 17th, 2016

Calamity-Seattle

QUESTION

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them [have been seen?]

BRANDON SANDERSON

I would see the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

TAGS

Roshar, Brandon on magic systems, surgebinding, voidbringing, fabrials, Old Magic,

Edited August 22, 2016 by Blightsong
Added quote

[Yata]

Yeah I know, it's only my interpretation of the Spren capture... It may be horribly wrong

[+hwiles]

10 hours ago, Blightsong said:

..................

Life on Roshar

 

All life on Roshar that utilize Spren to seem to have gemhearts and gain unnatural abilities from their symbiosis. They also seem to use investiture by going out in Highstorms to transform. This seems far beyond what we have seen on planets that don't have high levels of investiture (example being Threnody) or magic systems. This system of using gems to trap and gain powers from Spren is exactly like what we have seen from Fabrials science, and it has been going on way longer than Shards have even existed.

.................

 

An excellent observation; it would most likely have taken a tremendous amount of time for Greatshells, and indeed all gemhearted creatures, to evolve and create a relatively stable ecosystem.  The violent/turbulent conditions on Roshar and the large amount of investiture present could have greatly accelerated the evolutionary process, particularly if it was being specifically guided by Adonalsium, but it would be a bit of a stretch to suggest it occurred within only a few thousand years.  Ergo, trapping spren in gems (which is the foundation of fabrial science) as a magic system must predate the Shattering.

Well done!

[Jondesu]

Awesome theory!  I followed your link here after posting nearly the same theory, so I'm just here to pass along an upvote! 

jW

[Djarskublar]

I like this too, one thing: what are the implications if greatshells and Listeners are basically just living fabrials? Listeners get more variety in spren capture because they are sapient. Would it be possible to create a human fabrial? Kinda like spiking someone makes them a Hemalurgic construct.

Crazy thought: what if Plate is just a person with the right fabrial used on them? Dump a ton of Investiture on a person by fabrial, and change their form so they can retain it. I don't think it likely by any means, but I could see something like this being possible. Hmmm... Implications.

[+hwiles]

3 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

I like this too, one thing: what are the implications if greatshells and Listeners are basically just living fabrials? Listeners get more variety in spren capture because they are sapient. Would it be possible to create a human fabrial? Kinda like spiking someone makes them a Hemalurgic construct.

Crazy thought: what if Plate is just a person with the right fabrial used on them? Dump a ton of Investiture on a person by fabrial, and change their form so they can retain it. I don't think it likely by any means, but I could see something like this being possible. Hmmm... Implications.

LOL.  All I can think about now is Eshonai getting stormform spiked away from her and given to The Lopen.  Thank you for making my day!

[Djarskublar]

6 minutes ago, hwiles said:

LOL.  All I can think about now is Eshonai getting stormform spiked away from her and given to The Lopen.  Thank you for making my day!

That's not quite what I meant, but yeah that'd be great too!

I mean like having a fabrial used on you to rewrite your spiritweb and change what you are, like making a Hemalurgic construct or Soulstamping somebody. Hmmm... I've been thinking about writing up a post about spiritweb rewrites...

[Spoolofwhool]

You could probably create a fabrial which works similar to how Listeners change form. It would use stormlight, a massive amount, to change the wearer's cognitive by the spren's concept and provoke a physical change in the process. 

Overall though, while natural fabrial creatures are definitely old. I'm less sure about machine fabrials being that old. It feels more to be that they are a manifestation of investiture from one of the current shard, that was very close to the natural system on Roshar, since the manifestation of investiture bases itself on both the shard(s)'s intent and the planet. I do admit though that it could be an old system as well. There's just not enough proof either way.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Blightsong]

3 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I'm less sure about machine fabrials being that old. It feels more to be that they are a manifestation of investiture from one of the current shard, that was very close to the natural system on Roshar, since the manifestation of investiture bases itself on both the shard(s)'s intent and the planet.

Only the initiation of the magic system bases itself on the Shard, the actual powers are from the Shardworld. This is what originally gave me pause, the initiation of Fabrials don't seem based off of any of the shards present. I think it is more likely to be of Adonalsium, as it seems like life on Roshar has been using that system specifically (not just the surges present on the world, but actually trapping Spren in gemstones for an effect) since long before Honor and Cultivation arrived.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Blightsong said:

Only the initiation of the magic system bases itself on the Shard, the actual powers are from the Shardworld. This is what originally gave me pause, the initiation of Fabrials don't seem based off of any of the shards present. I think it is more likely to be of Adonalsium, as it seems like life on Roshar has been using that system specifically (not just the surges present on the world, but actually trapping Spren in gemstones for an effect) since long before Honor and Cultivation arrived.

The thing is though, I can see at least in some part how fabrials are related to the intent of a shard. Honor has to do with binding and uniting, and with a fabrial you're binding a spren into a gem, to the machine. The other part of the concept of fabrials could come from the other shard involved in it, possibly Odium. The concept Odium provides probably isn't hatred, and we don't know all that much about how fabrials work to say for certain. Besides, how the manifestation of investiture bases itself around a concept isn't always that intuitive. After all, allomancy works by preserving the user's strength, not through actual end-neutral methods. 

As to saying that a reason that fabrials are pre-Honor, Cultivation and Odium is because a similar spren bonding is occurring naturally, I don't think that's honestly a very good reasoning. First of all, as far as I'm aware, the only natural occurrence of using spren bound in gems is by the Listeners for form changing. However, even that isn't natural. Eshonai did say that that method is more novel, and, if I recall correctly (I don't have my copy of WoR to consult), was based off of fabrial technology. Other than Listeners, we don't have any other examples of natural spren bonding into gems, unless the spren of greatshells bond into their gemhearts, which I doubt. Also, by the reasoning you have presented, an argument could also be made that nahel bonding was also always possible and is a part of the world due to Adonalsium. In nahel bonding, just like with greatshells, a spren is bonding with a living entity in order to grant it certain perks. Only difference being that in the former case, the entity can manipulate surges and hold stormlight, and in the latter, they get size, and possibly other enhancements.

[Blightsong]

47 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The thing is though, I can see at least in some part how fabrials are related to the intent of a shard. Honor has to do with binding and uniting, and with a fabrial you're binding a spren into a gem, to the machine. The other part of the concept of fabrials could come from the other shard involved in it, possibly Odium. The concept Odium provides probably isn't hatred, and we don't know all that much about how fabrials work to say for certain. Besides, how the manifestation of investiture bases itself around a concept isn't always that intuitive. After all, allomancy works by preserving the user's strength, not through actual end-neutral methods. 

As to saying that a reason that fabrials are pre-Honor, Cultivation and Odium is because a similar spren bonding is occurring naturally, I don't think that's honestly a very good reasoning. First of all, as far as I'm aware, the only natural occurrence of using spren bound in gems is by the Listeners for form changing. However, even that isn't natural. Eshonai did say that that method is more novel, and, if I recall correctly (I don't have my copy of WoR to consult), was based off of fabrial technology. Other than Listeners, we don't have any other examples of natural spren bonding into gems, unless the spren of greatshells bond into their gemhearts, which I doubt. Also, by the reasoning you have presented, an argument could also be made that nahel bonding was also always possible and is a part of the world due to Adonalsium. In nahel bonding, just like with greatshells, a spren is bonding with a living entity in order to grant it certain perks. Only difference being that in the former case, the entity can manipulate surges and hold stormlight, and in the latter, they get size, and possibly other enhancements.

I think you are attaching (pun intended) yourself to the idea that Honor involves binding physical things. This just isn't the case. Honor is kind of about binding concepts. I think you got this idea from adhesion being a surge on Roshar, but the surges are Natural to Roshar, the Shardworld. The shard only has power over how initiation (or how the power is gained). Bringing this thought back to your comments on preservation, the above quote also implies that the powers of Allomancy are the fundamental forces of that planet, not an outgrowth of the shard. If you look at the initiation of Allomancy, although, it is intuitive to the intent of the shard. Snapping only occurs during moments of intense self preservation. Looking at other magic systems through this lends you can see almost every magic system we know the initiation for is very intuitive to its shard. Surgebinding is gained by developing a quality within yourself (a definition of Cultivation) and by honoring your oaths (a definition of Honor). Hemalurgy needs to rip apart someone's soul to work, and reduces the amount of investiture within while holding the charge, slowly ruining that piece. You need to endow things with your investiture in awakening to give it a command. Fabrials don't have this kind of intuitive initiation, it's very general, that's what sparked my idea.

 

Where did you get the idea that the Listeners' changing forms is based off of Fabrial technology? They are all able to to do it naturally, they evolved the ability. How is this not natural? Also, we know that Chasmfiends actually change forms the same way that Listeners do. When they mature they go out onto the plains, pupate, and change into adult Chasmfiends during a Highstorm. I would also like to point out that the Listeners could do this before ever being introduced to the various Shard-Spren or before Shards ever arrived to Roshar.

 

Your likening of Nahel Bonds and Fabrials is quite a stretch. The chasm fiend doesn't need to develop a quality, or keep any oaths. You don't need a gemheart to form a Nahel bond. Listeners can't even for Nahel bonds, and likewise Human's don't have gemhearts to change forms with.

 

 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, Blightsong said:

I think you are attaching (pun intended) yourself to the idea that Honor involves binding physical things. This just isn't the case. Honor is kind of about binding concepts. I think you got this idea from adhesion being a surge on Roshar, but the surges are Natural to Roshar, the Shardworld. The shard only has power over how initiation (or how the power is gained). Bringing this thought back to your comments on preservation, the above quote also implies that the powers of Allomancy are the fundamental forces of that planet, not an outgrowth of the shard. If you look at the initiation of Allomancy, although, it is intuitive to the intent of the shard. Snapping only occurs during moments of intense self preservation. Looking at other magic systems through this lends you can see almost every magic system we know the initiation for is very intuitive to its shard. Surgebinding is gained by developing a quality within yourself (a definition of Cultivation) and by honoring your oaths (a definition of Honor). Hemalurgy needs to rip apart someone's soul to work, and reduces the amount of investiture within while holding the charge, slowly ruining that piece. You need to endow things with your investiture in awakening to give it a command. Fabrials don't have this kind of intuitive initiation, it's very general, that's what sparked my idea.

 

Where did you get the idea that the Listeners' changing forms is based off of Fabrial technology? They are all able to to do it naturally, they evolved the ability. How is this not natural? Also, we know that Chasmfiends actually change forms the same way that Listeners do. When they mature they go out onto the plains, pupate, and change into adult Chasmfiends during a Highstorm. I would also like to point out that the Listeners could do this before ever being introduced to the various Shard-Spren or before Shards ever arrived to Roshar.

I am quite aware that Honor is about binding concepts. I fully support the idea that Honor is behind surgebinding, (though Honor only), because of its base concept of binding like-minded individuals and spren. I am also well aware of how manifestations of investiture occur. I don't think you are correct though about snapping having to do with with self-preservation. By indications, and WoBs, it occurs as a result of heavy stress on the physical self causing spiritweb damage, which establishes the connection to Preservation. Also, you're saying that you looked at the overall allomancy mechanics and, without advanced knowledge, thought, "yeah, that's of Preservation since it's obviously preserving the user's strength."?

I never said that Listener form-changing is based off of fabrials. I said the usage of gem-imprisoned spren technique that Listeners adapted was based off of fabrials, IIRC. Originally, Listeners just stood out in the highstorm and hoped they bonded the right spren, if I remember what Eshonai said. 

12 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

Your likening of Nahel Bonds and Fabrials is quite a stretch. The chasm fiend doesn't need to develop a quality, or keep any oaths. You don't need a gemheart to form a Nahel bond. Listeners can't even for Nahel bonds, and likewise Human's don't have gemhearts to change forms with.

The point I was making is that everything is based on the same mechanic, of bonding or binding spren. This is most likely the concept that Roshar adds to the manifestations of investiture, same as how Scadrial adds metals. While different entities go about it differently, and methods which are more natural are simpler than those as a result of a manifestation of investiture from Odium, Honor or Cultivation, the base concept of all of them is the same, including in fabrials. You are incorrect though that Listeners cannot form a Nahel Bond. WoB says that it is a possibility, which seems to me to be a fair chances. 

 

Overall, I think you're slightly misconstruing what I said, hopefully this clears it up, though I'm happy to provide more information if need be.

[Blightsong]

29 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I am quite aware that Honor is about binding concepts. I fully support the idea that Honor is behind surgebinding, (though Honor only), because of its base concept of binding like-minded individuals and spren. I am also well aware of how manifestations of investiture occur. I don't think you are correct though about snapping having to do with with self-preservation. By indications, and WoBs, it occurs as a result of heavy stress on the physical self causing spiritweb damage, which establishes the connection to Preservation. Also, you're saying that you looked at the overall allomancy mechanics and, without advanced knowledge, thought, "yeah, that's of Preservation since it's obviously preserving the user's strength."?

Wait, why do you think that Surgebinding is only of Honor? "The process of trying to acquire or develop a quality or skill." Is a verbatim definition of Cultivation and seems instrumental to the Nahel bond. Not to mention that Brandon has confirmed numerous times that Surgebinding is a result of more than one Shard's power. You say Surgebinding's base concept is binding likeminded individuals and Spren (again, bonding isn't specifically honorable, keeping the oaths is where that comes in. These same bonds happen between cognitive entities and humans on other shardworlds separate from Honor), but this is highly subjective. One could just as easily say that Surgebinding's base concept is advancing one's ideology, One could not form a bond without this.

 

Yes, while the cracking within the soul via physical stress is the mechanics of how it is done, that way of initiation was chosen because of the shard present on world. I also find it kind of telling that pre-Harmony I cannot find one example of someone snapping via mental stress alone, it's always when their near death. Surgebinding, while still using a similar process of filling in cracks in the soul, seems as if it can happen just from mental issues or mental stress.

 

59 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I never said that Listener form-changing is based off of fabrials. I said the usage of gem-imprisoned spren technique that Listeners adapted was based off of fabrials, IIRC. Originally, Listeners just stood out in the highstorm and hoped they bonded the right spren, if I remember what Eshonai said. 

Ohhhh, I thought the 'gem' you ere referring to was their gemheart. Thanks for clarifying. I think the fact that they use gemstones to get the right Spren is kind of irrelevant, the actual biological process is what matters here. This just means that they found a hack in the magic system.

 

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The point I was making is that everything is based on the same mechanic, of bonding or binding spren. This is most likely the concept that Roshar adds to the manifestations of investiture, same as how Scadrial adds metals. While different entities go about it differently, and methods which are more natural are simpler than those as a result of a manifestation of investiture from Odium, Honor or Cultivation, the base concept of all of them is the same, including in fabrials. You are incorrect though that Listeners cannot form a Nahel Bond. WoB says that it is a possibility, which seems to me to be a fair chances. 

 

Overall, I think you're slightly misconstruing what I said, hopefully this clears it up, though I'm happy to provide more information if need be.

I guess I just disagree that it's the same mechanic, we just refer to them similarly, by calling them a bond. In a Nahel bond the Spren and Human's souls are actually fusing together. When a Spren gets trapped in a gem it's isn't being fused to the spirit web of the gem. The gem with the correct atomic make up and color simply is able to be invested with a Spren. What factual evidence do we actually have that putting a Spren in a gem and fusing a Sprens spirit web to a human's is the same mechanic

 

Your not wrong that it's not impossible, but the Listener would likely have to be spiritually different from all past Listeners for this to happen. Current (unless something has changed recently) and past Listeners have not been able to have have Nahel bonds so I guess what I was trying to say is that Listeners of the past could not form Nahel bonds. This technicality doesn't really alter my arguement.

 

Yup, thanks for the clarification.

 

 

 

[Djarskublar]

Well @Blightsong that isn't stictly true. My reading of that WoB lead me to believe that surgebinding was available to the Listeners the same as humans, just that nobody realizes it. Saying historically no is akin to saying that on Scadrial there were, historically, fewer metals. Technically, that's true. If you asked someone back then, they would give you a blank look if you started talking about speed bubbles. Doesn't mean there weren't Bendalloy Mistings.

Aside from that, which as you say doesn't affect your theory, your stance holds up better under scrutiny.

@Spoolofwhool Allomancy is about preserving your strength. Not sure how to link WoB especially since I'm on mobile, so here is a relevant partial quote, "So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift- allowing a person  to preserve their own strength and rely upon the strength granted by the magic." (from the Reddit ama in 2011) Basically surgebinding isn't just of Honor, and Allomancy is about preserving the user's strength. And in the end, none of your points are really addressing the actual topic. Where does fabrial science come from, in your opinion? I agree with Blightsong that it doesn't fit any of the Shards, and that a bunch of life on Roshar appear to be using biological fabrials to pupate/change form. You say it comes from a Shard, but haven't specified one. You think Honor is Surgebinding, and Odium has Voidbinding, so does that leave Cultivation to fabrials? I think Blightsong's theory is far more meritorious than the idea of fabrials being of Cultivation, especially considering the high (i.e. basically guaranteed) probability that Cultivation is already involved with Surgebinding.

[Blightsong]

17 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Well @Blightsong that isn't stictly true. My reading of that WoB lead me to believe that surgebinding was available to the Listeners the same as humans, just that nobody realizes it. Saying historically no is akin to saying that on Scadrial there were, historically, fewer metals. Technically, that's true. If you asked someone back then, they would give you a blank look if you started talking about speed bubbles. Doesn't mean there weren't Bendalloy Mistings.

I would agree if that quote was all the information we had on this subject, I forgot to link something in the above post so here's the relevant quote from WoR

 

Listener Song of SprenEdit

9th Stanza
The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt.
Our minds are too close to their realm
That gives us our forms, but more is then
Demanded by the smartest spren,
We can’t provide what the humans lend,
Though broth are we, their meat is men.^[21]

[Djarskublar]

Well, you mentioning that made me wonder what 'meat' the spren are getting out of this is. The answer: Stormlight or the bond itself. Either works. Surgebinders have a better bond and use a LOT more Light.

And this quote is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. It is the blank look. "Bendalloy? What's that?" to "Listener Radiants? Airsick lowlander!"

Just because they don't believe it is possible doesn't make it so. My point literally was addressing things like this.

[Blightsong]

6 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Well, you mentioning that made me wonder what 'meat' the spren are getting out of this is. The answer: Stormlight or the bond itself. Either works. Surgebinders have a better bond and use a LOT more Light.

And this quote is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. It is the blank look. "Bendalloy? What's that?" to "Listener Radiants? Airsick lowlander!"

Just because they don't believe it is possible doesn't make it so. My point literally was addressing things like this.

The two parties in your analogy have two very important things different about them. People just didn't know what bendalloy was, so they couldn't utilize it. Listeners seem to know why they can't bond Spren.

 

Based on what we know about the Nahel bond (the relevant information being that the bond pulls the Spren closer to the physical realm) and the knowledge from the quote (Listener's are closer o the cognitive realm than humans) we can deduce that Listeners in the past have not had a basic prerequisite for bonding a Spren.

 

It also just logically makes sense. Honor and Cultivation would have known if Listeners could form bonds, and there is no reason they would keep this from the Spren or the Listeners. I also have a feeling that the Spren would have naturally been able to tell if they could form a bond with the Listeners. Syl seemed to be able to instinctively seek out Kaladin. In conclusion, I think that if it had been possible in the past it would have already happened.

[Djarskublar]

25 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

The two parties in your analogy have two very important things different about them. People just didn't know what bendalloy was, so they couldn't utilize it. Listeners seem to know why they can't bond Spren.

 

Based on what we know about the Nahel bond (the relevant information being that the bond pulls the Spren closer to the physical realm) and the knowledge from the quote (Listener's are closer o the cognitive realm than humans) we can deduce that Listeners in the past have not had a basic prerequisite for bonding a Spren.

 

It also just logically makes sense. Honor and Cultivation would have known if Listeners could form bonds, and there is no reason they would keep this from the Spren or the Listeners. I also have a feeling that the Spren would have naturally been able to tell if they could form a bond with the Listeners. Syl seemed to be able to instinctively seek out Kaladin. In conclusion, I think that if it had been possible in the past it would have already happened.

I can see a reading of it that interprets it as they know what's up, but I don't think it is the case. If it were, they wouldn't have decided that stormform was a good idea. I think that is shown well by them thinking it is a betrayal... that makes no sense. They didn't stop forming bonds with the Listeners. The spren basically just entered a new business relation. The listeners didn't even have a monopoly on them in the first place. 'The spren betrayed us, they bonded with that chull over there!'

For your second point, I understand that Nahel bonding was possible as soon as H/C invested, but none occurs until after the Heralds were created. Then the spren were like hey that's cool, maybe these other humans can do this too if we go help them. BoM spoilers

just like those unkeyed feruchemical stores. Wayne didn't realize there was anything in that gold mind until he perceived it as such.

perhaps the same thing is going on with the spren. Until they think they can bond with the Listeners, they can't actually do it. Which makes a ton of sense anyway seeing as they are Cognitive entities, they need to slightly change their Cognitive aspect to be able to do it. Brandon has said that everyone on Roshar would tell you it is impossible, not that it can't be done.

Besides all that, there isn't anything different about them now that would allow it. The Listeners have always been what they are. I don't think anything has changed to let them get a Nahel bond. They were always able, they just didn't know it.

[Spoolofwhool]

I'm going to table the discussion about surgebinding into the Theory of Roshar topic so this one can be kept on track regarding listeners. As to nahel bonding and Listeners, it was stated that the reason why, so far there are not nahel bonds with Listeners, is simply because the spren decided not to. This is, after all, why Listeners allied with Odium.

I'm going to leave this thread for now. I'm just going to reiterate my original point. I don't think machine fabrials are a natural result of Roshar's investiture before Honor, Odium or Cultivation arrived. The reason I think so is because it is a bit too artificial compared to other phenomenon of spren bonding which are naturally occurring. Overall though, I don't think we have enough information regarding fabrials and the manifestations of investiture on Roshar to really say for certain, and chances are it's not going to be what any of us think.