Theory on the God Beyond

[Ciridae]

I was rereading all the interludes from the SA and came across Ym's description of his religion.

Quote

He believes, long ago, there was only one being which he simply calls One. One knew everything but had experienced nothing. And so One became Many in order to experience all things. As each experience is different, it brings completeness to One. Eventually, all will be gathered back in when the sum of land is attained and they will once again become One. Every person is a different mind of a single being experiencing different lives.

(taken from Ym's page on the Coppermind)

We know from Secret History that after you die, you enter the Cognitive Realm as a Shadow before being 'sucked' into the Beyond. Maybe that's exactly what happens to everybody, they become part of a whole again, part of the sum of all experiences.

I know there isn't much in the books to support this theory, other than the fact that it is an existing religion, but I do think it would fit with the overall theme of something (Adonalsium) being shattered into lots of tiny pieces.

Thoughts?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Everybody (except insufferably stubborn people) goes to the Beyond when they die. There is a being/force referred to as The God Beyond.

I like this idea, mostly because I don't think the similarity is idle coincidence.

[Djarskublar he/him]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Everybody (except insufferably stubborn people) goes to the Beyond when they die. There is a being/force referred to as The God Beyond.

I like this idea, mostly because I don't think the similarity is idle coincidence.

Agreed, especially considering that a bunch, if not all, of the religions Sazed mentioned ended up being important to what he did at the end with changing Scadrial.

On the other hand, Brandon has said he won't say what happens in the Great Beyond to not trample on anyone's beliefs in real life, so chances aren't great that it will be that cosmerically significant.

So I guess I like the idea, but don't think it's likely.

[Rasarr she/her]

2 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

On the other hand, Brandon has said he won't say what happens in the Great Beyond to not trample on anyone's beliefs in real life, so chances aren't great that it will be that cosmerically significant.

Out of sheer curiosity, why would it be so? I'm honestly asking, because I've seen that statement before and I seriously don't understand. How would the fact that dead people in fictional universe merge with some grander deity/exist in a land of fluffy clouds/go to one of seventy eight hells trample on anyone's beliefs? It's fiction, after all.

[goody153]

Tbqh the idea that the shards are the most powerful entities in Cosmere is already great and interesting with their abilities being the same but limited by their intent etc etc. This Great Beyond God stuff would just turn cosmere into one of those work where the author does this godawful trope about "a great power greater than the current one" that they always reiterate like 2-4 times which usually turns their work into an awful mess or mediocre stuff that was once good.

[Ciridae]

11 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Tbqh the idea that the shards are the most powerful entities in Cosmere is already great and interesting with their abilities being the same but limited by their intent etc etc. This Great Beyond God stuff would just turn cosmere into one of those work where the author does this godawful trope about "a great power greater than the current one" that they always reiterate like 2-4 times which usually turns their work into an awful mess or mediocre stuff that was once good.

That is true and i understand that for the main plot the Shards are the main focus. But I feel like Brandon has mentioned the God Beyond enough on different planets and in different stories for it to have some relevance (even if it's not the solution to the whole afterlife issue)

I find the WoB (which btw I have not come across, so thank you @Djarskublar) much more interesting, even if Brandon is a fantasy author he does take into consideration the views of his audience. I have to admit I am disappointed (because I am religious and still would not be offended if Brandon explained a Cosmere Afterlife). Like @Rasarr said, it is just fiction. But that argument does end this discussion.

[goody153]

@Ciridae Well my complain is really just about the overall story impact of having something more powerful than the shards and that having something "beyond" than shards actually makes the cosmere feel cheap instead of cooler. But that's just me.

[Ari he/him]

I'm pretty sure that The God Beyond merely refers to the Vessel of Adonalsium that died and went into the Beyond.

[Djarskublar he/him]

Fair enough goody, but there was Adonalsium at one point, which was at least 16x more powerful than a shard. Shards really aren't all THAT buff

[goody153]

3 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Fair enough goody, but there was Adonalsium at one point, which was at least 16x more powerful than a shard. Shards really aren't all THAT buff

That's just ok, since the shards came from the Adonalsium so i can understand that since it's a setup for the shards and why are the "gods" or shards there in the firstplace but having an "opposite" to adonalsium or something greater that have to fight or something in the end of everything sounds really awful and generic.

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by goody153

[Djarskublar he/him]

Ah, but monotheistic fantasy just isn't as interesting. Either He/She/It picks a side, which sucks, or it doesn't actually do anything, which is pointless.

If It picks a side it's either the 'hero defeats God' trope which is usually shoddily done with lots of Douche ex Machina (pun intended), or the 'God chosen hero' which is just boringly predictable.

Polytheistic fantasy, on the other hand, is great! Try some Dragonlance, for example.

[Yata he/him]

A lot of people don't have flexibility and the ability to astract concepts. I imagine someone will find the Cosmere's death as a blasphemy (just if he/she stops a moment to figure the whole process).

As: The mind (a thing developed by mortal experience) ascends to the Beyond (see as Heaven). While the Soul (gifted by God) will be thorn apart to be re-used to another people.

But quite everything is blasphemy for someone.

A belief is a delicate thing, easy to be offense. There are also many people who exploit this peculiar Human's weakness (to be deceived with faith-relate matter) therefore I think Mister Sanderson's concern is not so excideeding.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Yata

[Rasarr she/her]

@Yata - thank you, that does explain it.

I have to agree with @goody153 and @Djarskublar - having something "bigger than Adonalsium" out there actively involved in the events would suck out a lot of fun from the Cosmere; divine shenaningans with the Shards are far more fun.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 8/20/2016 at 0:47 AM, Djarskublar said:

Ah, but monotheistic fantasy just isn't as interesting. Either He/She/It picks a side, which sucks, or it doesn't actually do anything, which is pointless.

If It picks a side it's either the 'hero defeats God' trope which is usually shoddily done with lots of Douche ex Machina (pun intended), or the 'God chosen hero' which is just boringly predictable.

Polytheistic fantasy, on the other hand, is great! Try some Dragonlance, for example.

You have heard of the Lord of the Rings, right? Monotheistic fantasy with a supreme, overriding, omniscient, big G God. Yes, Eru Illuvatar certainly makes the books boring... 

Having a monotheistic universe doesn't have to be boring. It just has to be done well, which for some reason many authors find harder to do than writing a polytheistic one.

[Djarskublar he/him]

6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

You have heard of the Lord of the Rings, right? Monotheistic fantasy with a supreme, overriding, omniscient, big G God. Yes, Eru Illuvatar certainly makes the books boring... 

Having a monotheistic universe doesn't have to be boring. It just has to be done well, which for some reason many authors find harder to do than writing a polytheistic one.

Ehhh. Didn't like it. See my point on Douche ex Machina (pun still intended). That series did not follow Sanderson's laws on worldbuilding, specifically the one where he talks about how magic should do an amount of work in your plot directly correlating with how well the reader understands it. Now granted, Sanderson came up with that idea long after TLotR was written, but that's irrelevant. The magic in that story should barely light a campfire for how well it is explained. It always irked me that Frodo asked Gandalf why magic couldn't do something more to solve their problem, and he said there were opposing forces or something blocking him, but he fought the Balrog just fine. The whole thing felt like he just wrote himself into a corner repeatedly and had to pull Gandalf or eagles out of his butt to save theirs. Blasting the Balrog with a fireball? Fine! Teleporting Frodo even to the edge of Mordor still outside Sauron's direct sphere of influence? Nope! cuz that'd break my plot!

I read it back in junior high, and saw its massive flaws even then. I would like it even less now. There is just no tension since you know nothing can really go wrong- Gandalf will show up and save them... again. And again. And again. People have told me to go read the Silmarillion to understand the magic better, but that is like having to read Secret History to understand any of what happened in Mistborn. I'm not going to accept having to read what is basically a supplement to understand a core series that should stand on its own. Most people haven't heard of the Silmarillion (is that even how that's spelled?), so I shouldn't need it.

I don't care that it revolutionized the fantasy genre, that doesn't actually have anything to do with its quality, only its popularity.

Gah! That was way longer than I wanted it to be. Stupid pet peeves...

Now I wouldn't say monotheistic fantasy can't be good, it is just much more difficult and overused.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Tolkien wasn't just writing a fantasy; he was writing a mythology. The Silmarillion was written FIRST but the editor didn't want to publish it. And there is no 'magic' in Tolkien's world as we think of it. And Gandalf isn't actually a wizard.

Gandalf is a Maia, not human but an angel. Different Maia have different abilities. As a Maia of Nienna and Este, Gandalf tends to focus more on the internal. His powers are likely more subtle, as befits his status as the servant of Vala of mourning (Nienna) and healing (Este.) He is limited when dealing with mortals. The Balrog is ALSO a Maia, aka. a fallen fire angel. Against another of his kind Gandalf is not nearly as limited. He accepted this when he and the other Istari came to Endor. They had a good reason too; the last time the Ainu came to Middle Earth they destroyed a continent. He's also not the most powerful Maia (Sauron, for example, is FAR more powerful.) Not to mention that he cannot truly determine things; only men have that sort of freedom.

Not sure why you felt Gandalf would 'fix' everything; he wasn't anywhere NEAR Sam and Frodo. Everything else was a distraction for them. The eagles appear twice: Gandalf mentions their aiding him in a conversation, and again after the Ring has been destroyed.

As for Sanderson's rules; Next to NO magic in Tolkien's world. What Gandalf does isn't 'magic' exactly. It just looks like it. And even then it is almost never used. If magic is not used why explain? Teleportation, btw, doesn't exist. 'Magic' is very limited, which is why it isn't used, which is why it isn't explained. The Silmarillion, where it crops up more often does explain a lot more. But the Silmarillion, as published, is a synopsis so it doesn't explain as much as it should. The lack of explanation is intentional here, because it wasn't needed then and there. The Silmarillion isn't Tolkien's Secret History; it's his Hero of Ages. He wrote that story first, not knowing it wouldn't be published in his lifetime.

There is also the fact that Brandon writes novels. Tolkien wrote myths that can be read as novels. And Brandon doesn't explain everything at once either. It took three books to learn SOME of how and why allomancy works. 

There is exactly ONE confirmed instance of Deux ex Machina in LotR. (Gollum slipping into the lava.) I notice you avoided my first point; I heard a LOT about Gandalf, who is just a Maia. No comments on Eru, the actual God of the setting? 

I'd love to continue this, but it is WAY off topic, so PM me if you want to keep discussing this. (I'd change this to a PM, but my stupid device won't let me copy my post so I'm stuck.)