On the subject of magic...

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

So I've been wondering. Every fantasy book that has magic usually has it either misused in some way, or separated into two types; Light and Dark, sometimes more. My question is; What defines, 'dark' and 'light' magic? What defines the other magic 'types'? Other than the age-old dark is evil, light is good thing. Ideas, Comments, Thought's?

[Landis963 he/him]

2 hours ago, ShadowLord_Lith said:

So I've been wondering. Every fantasy book that has magic usually has it either misused in some way, or separated into two types; Light and Dark, sometimes more. My question is; What defines, 'dark' and 'light' magic? What defines the other magic 'types'? Other than the age-old dark is evil, light is good thing. Ideas, Comments, Thought's?

Usually (unless the author's making some kind of point about conservative hypocrisy, or doesn't want to ascribe that kind of morality to their magic) Dark type magics are geared toward hurting oneself and others, while light type magics are geared toward helping oneself and others.  This is a huge generalization, but that's how it usually goes in high fantasy works that are looking to cut a few corners in their worldbuilding (say, to make good gameplay and come in on schedule and under budget - looking at you, Warcraft).  

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

Try reading the Traitor Son Cycle (if your old enough), It's magic system is very good and story is storming amazing

[Voidus]

Whether the person using the magic is wearing a hood and cloak or armour and a sword.

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

Can you guys maybe expound on that? Go into more detail in what you think makes dark magic 'dark' and light magic 'light'?

I mean there are plenty of people who use dark magic while wielding a sword and armor, or while in robes or hooded cloaks. Same with light magic. I don't think that clothing defines the magics archetype.

Edited August 19, 2016 by ShadowLord_Lith

[Voidus]

5 hours ago, ShadowLord_Lith said:

Can you guys maybe expound on that? Go into more detail in what you think makes dark magic 'dark' and light magic 'light'?

I mean there are plenty of people who use dark magic while wielding a sword and armor, or while in robes or hooded cloaks. Same with light magic. I don't think that clothing defines the magics archetype.

That was a joke
In most series it's a subjective cultural definition not a hard boundary, in general what Landis said, dark magic tends to be about hurting others or can only be used to hurt others, light magic is used to help others. Or Dark magic is more powerful but corrupting somehow, while light magic is not.

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

Thanks. ( I knew it was a joke btw, I was just being a jerk. Sorry)

That's what I thought, though I wanted people to post what they personally thought made dark magic dark and light magic light. If it is entirely they light positive darn negative thing, then that's alright. Thanks for the opinions!

Also, out of curiosity... How in Halacia do you get the little subtitle thing under your name? You know, the little faded letters beneath the big bold ones that make your name?

[Voidus]

On 8/20/2016 at 11:58 AM, ShadowLord_Lith said:

Thanks. ( I knew it was a joke btw, I was just being a jerk. Sorry)

That's what I thought, though I wanted people to post what they personally thought made dark magic dark and light magic light. If it is entirely they light positive darn negative thing, then that's alright. Thanks for the opinions!

Also, out of curiosity... How in Halacia do you get the little subtitle thing under your name? You know, the little faded letters beneath the big bold ones that make your name?

Top right corner of the page where your name is then profile > edit profile and it's the member title option.

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

Thanks!

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

If anyone has any questions about magic or other such things (usually in general) ask them here. I'm trying to repurpose this thread. Just ask me too and I'll let it die.

[Tsidqiyah he/him]

@ShadowLord_Lith Back to your original question: I think Dark magic tends to be more internally motivated. Think the force "Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, [Hate leads to violent/vengeful/rage based murder]" Dark magic is usually motivated  by powerful selfish emotions with the aim to get power, riches, stuff. I disagree that is can only hurt. even the dark side of the force can heal ... Vader hoped to heal his lungs in various of the books. On the other hand Light magic is usually externally motivated by positive/selfless emotions. I am aware of a lot of light  systems that can hurt. So for me the difference is more in the emotions that motivates the actions of the user. 

 

Now for my question.  I am working on developing a magic system based on modifying or changing materials, Not like gold into lead but making leather behave like steel or forming a brick wall into a single mass. so does anyone have examples on similar systems do they work as a central plot focus or are they too vague to drive a story.

 

 

[ShadowLord_Lith he/him]

@Tsidqiyah, I don't know about changing leather from flimsy to unbreakable without a physical change of the substance, but doesn't soulcasting change things into other things depending on the gem used? Personally, I think that soulcasting could be a way to drive a plot on almost any world other than Roshar. The reason it couldn't be a plot-driving force on Roshar is because the world is used to it, there isn't any form of conflict except whether or not it's sacrilege, and the ardents aren't all that worried about that idea yet.

If your magic provides a conflict that you can work with, whether emotional, political, physical, or some other kind, it can drive a plot just as well as anything else.

An example of magic that drives the plot would be Roshar surges, I mean, look how the re-surge-ance of the  Knights radiant did. It is the whole purpose of the plot, without it almost nothing else would happen.

Look at kaladin, without his knight radiant status he would've died while caring bridges, and he would never have gotten to work for Dallinar etc... So, yes, your magic can definitely drive the plot depending on the situation. 

I hope this was helpful for you! 

Edited October 14, 2016 by ShadowLord_Lith

[Kynedath]

On the topic of light and dark magic, I think that it's a mixture of the two different answers I've already seen. I don't really like "light and dark magic" based systems, but that being said, I love magic in general. What I personally think happens in light/dark magic systems is that they both have a different source, like the positive or negative emotions Tsidqiyah mentioned. However, I also think that the different types of magic have different purposes as well. Light magic would be drawn from a "positive" power source and put out positive effects, while dark magic would come from a "negative" source and put out harmful effects. Take surgebinding and voidbinding for example. I haven't read into this too much, but from what I understand, surgebinding comes from Honour's investiture, while voidbinding comes from Odium's investiture (I think? Again, I'm not sure). We don't know too much about what voidbinding does at this point, but we know loosely what surgebinding does. I think that we can assume that voidbinding has different, more violent uses for it's powers. Less flying and sticking, more dismembering and explodifying.

Moving on to Tsidqiyah's question, I think that the modification of materials would be a great basis for a magic system, so long as you carry through properly. I can see potential if you are creative enough with it's use. For example, make a hail of arrows the mass of straw or some such shenanigans, therefore shielding the hero from harm. It's kind of like allomancy. Even just a coinshot is able to do so many things! I told my friends about a magic system where they push on metal with their minds, and my friends gave me a blank stare in return. But look at what it actually is in the universe! The most basic of concepts can be extremely effective bases for magic. I like it.

[ManWithTheMetalArm he/him]

I never really liked the terms "light and dark" when describing magic, as it feels limiting, mainly because one culture's definition of what is "light" and what is "dark" will probably differ from another culture's. I prefer the terms "order" and "chaos", which are much more general. And despite what you may think, while you definitely don't want total chaos, you don't want total order either. Total order means stability at all costs, which is impossible. Everything is in a constant state of change, from they way people age, to the way societies change with each new generation, to even nature herself. In the eyes of total order, that is simply unacceptable. It's like Dark Seid, he wants to destroy all life in the universe not because he's evil and a dick like that, but because he sees nothing but chaos in the universe, and wants to remake it to instill ultimate order.