Radiant Returned Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 How much can Shards manifest in the Physical Realm and have we seen them secretly appearing in books? If not, why don't they interfere more? It's been a while since I read HoA so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe we ever see a Shard fully in the Physical Realm. Sazed's body only appears in the Cognitive realm, and Ati's body falls to the ground in the PR once he is killed. Ati at one point physically is one Scadrial, but because his power isn't fully awakened he can't fully manifest in the physical realm. This is I guess why he only appears where his power is focused. If he were able to fully come in the Physical realm, I would guess that his weakness of not being able to read metal (presumably because it glows to bright like that of the soul in the Cognitive realm) would be overcome if he had a physical body that could just read the words on the plate as opposed to sending Marsh (though if I'm missing/forgetting something here please let me know). The Sel Shards are obviously shattered so they're ruled out. Hemalurgy never takes a physical form we see in Era 2 Mistborn, but I think this can be attributed to his zen, non-interference approach. Honor is Shattered so the only Shards who theoretically could take a Physical form in the books so far are Endowment and Cultivation. Endowment I'm not sure about, because her Intent seems to drive her to share her power and do her goals through endowing people on the planet with Breath. But Cultivation on the other hand, if she has both the ability to manifest in the Physical Realm, as well as no restrictions we know of to prevent her from doing this, is it possible that Cultivation is living on Roshar and having a hand in the events there? She could be cultivating new leaders for the war that is coming. This leads me to my theory, one that I'm not sure I actually think is true but is one worth pondering: Could Navani be Cultivation? She not only could be cultivating Dalinar as a leader, and before him Elhokar and Gavilar, but it would make sense that she could fall in love with Dalinar, who is very Honorable and even bonded to the Stormfather. Lastly, if a Shard can take a Physical form, how likely do y'all think it is we have a future book with an actual Shard as a major character? Obviously would be way down the line, but facing not only an evil entity like Ruin was in Mistborn but the possibility of a Shard taking control and ruling as a literal God-King would be insanely interesting to read about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 Shards have manifested physically in multiple books. Atium, lerasium, the Well of Ascension, the Mists, the shardpool in Elantris, shardblades, and probably shardplates, are all a shard's power in the physical realm, with a physical form. However, I assume you're talking more like the complete shard creating a physical avatar which they can use to interact with the world. I presume this is possible, though I doubt we have seen anything of the like yet. Nor do I think that it is likely to occur. Regarding your other theory. I do not think that Navani is Cultivation. Main point is that Hoid knows Cultivation, and, I'm fairly certain, has seen, or even spoken to Navani, and I don't doubt that he would recognize her if he did. Yes, it may be possible for her to try to hide it, but I doubt it. Also, shards seem inclined to not take direct involvement with the actions of people, and if Navani were Cultivation, she would be doing so to a great degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PallonianFire Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 The closest would be the one that you didn't mention: Preservation. The mist spirit is definitely in the PR, and affects it when he stabs Elend at the Well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 1 hour ago, PallonianFire said: The closest would be the one that you didn't mention: Preservation. The mist spirit is definitely in the PR, and affects it when he stabs Elend at the Well. I don't think the mist spirit is really in the physical realm. It seemed more to me like a cognitive shadow, the remnants of cognitive that Leras has left, with a tiny bit of power, enough power to cause slight effects in the physical realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PallonianFire Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 20 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: I don't think the mist spirit is really in the physical realm. It seemed more to me like a cognitive shadow, the remnants of cognitive that Leras has left, with a tiny bit of power, enough power to cause slight effects in the physical realm. I think the way I'd describe it (my words here, not remotely canon or anything) is that the mist spirit is a sort of "bleed over" from the CR to the PR. That it is physically present in the world, but the being that it's a presence of is mostly in the CR. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 Just now, PallonianFire said: I think the way I'd describe it (my words here, not remotely canon or anything) is that the mist spirit is a sort of "bleed over" from the CR to the PR. That it is physically present in the world, but the being that it's a presence of is mostly in the CR. I can agree with that. The mist spirit is cognitive interacting with the physical realm in a similar method that the shades of Threnody do. However, I don't think it is anywhere close enough to qualify as a physical manifestation of a shard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PallonianFire Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 That's fair. I just think it's the closest to that which we've seen, and I found it interesting that Preservation wasn't mentioned in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Returned Posted August 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said: However, I assume you're talking more like the complete shard creating a physical avatar which they can use to interact with the world. Yes this is what I'm talking about. Yes Shards seem to be opposed to directly interfering in day to day life. But WHY? What do they do all the time that is so interesting? Harmony makes sense, his Intents explain why he can't take an active role in things. But the other Shards don't have such a hold. Cultivations Intent is the opposite, to cultivate is to tend to something until it improve and to continue to do that. It makes sense that she would want to be actively involved in her world. The Navani thing is just something I thought of while typing this post so I'm not big on it, but it IS possible. Until we find out why other Shards haven't actively been in a physical avatar on their planets (which we don't know for sure they haven't), we can't rule out that it could have a role in a future book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PallonianFire Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I just remembered this, but I'm pretty sure that a human body isn't capable of containing the power of a Shard. It's why Vin's body vaporized when she Ascended. Same with Sazed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Returned Posted August 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 5 minutes ago, PallonianFire said: I just remembered this, but I'm pretty sure that a human body isn't capable of containing the power of a Shard. It's why Vin's body vaporized when she Ascended. Same with Sazed. I didn't think they're bodies vaporized, just transcended. Maybe the body is inaccessibly while the Shard is alive, but it isn't destroyed, as Ati's body falls to the ground when he's killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 33 minutes ago, Radiant Returned said: I didn't think they're bodies vaporized, just transcended. Maybe the body is inaccessibly while the Shard is alive, but it isn't destroyed, as Ati's body falls to the ground when he's killed. Pretty sure the bodies are vaporized then recreated. Sazed described it as such. 41 minutes ago, PallonianFire said: I just remembered this, but I'm pretty sure that a human body isn't capable of containing the power of a Shard. It's why Vin's body vaporized when she Ascended. Same with Sazed. We're not talking about putting the entire power of the shard in the avatar. We're more imaging creating a living body that lacks a cognitive but which is directly controlled by the shard as an extension of its cognitive. Back to the main question of why shards don't use avatars. Honestly, I don't see why they need to. They're god-entities who can see anywhere and in most cases talk to anyone anywhere directly in their thoughts. Why waste time moving a physical pawn to interact with people when you can move them directly? Even if you want a more subtle manipulation that should still be possible. Also, doing so might actually limit the shard. Controlling the avatar might force them to concentrate to much on it that they won't be able to pay attention to much else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PallonianFire Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 18 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: We're not talking about putting the entire power of the shard in the avatar. We're more imaging creating a living body that lacks a cognitive but which is directly controlled by the shard as an extension of its cognitive. I don't think that would be possible. A physical body without a Cognitive aspect? That's somehow also the Shard? That doesn't make sense. To put only a piece of its power into a body, I'm pretty sure the Shard would have to splinter itself. And then you get, in essence, a Returned-type person instead of an avatar of the Shard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I personally suspect that Shards can, if they really focus, make their actual, physical bodies manifest in the physical realm while they are still alive, much like the bodies of Ruin, Preservation and later Vin, manifested after they died. In fact, my personal favorite theory is that for Ruin to have reclaimed his power in the Atium, he would have had to manifest his physical body and burn the atium like an Allomancer. I'm guessing that this is difficult and dangerous for the Shard, but that's pure speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROSHtaFARian2.0 Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 Yeah, we know that human bodies burn out from the full power of a Shard, but theoretically that doesn't preclude a Shard from manifesting in a physical form that only looks human but doesn't have the actual limitations of a human body. If two Shards cooperating can create a planet, I can't imagine why creating a physical avatar would be beyond their capabilities. Personally I think the answer may be as simple as when you have a group of seventeen individuals with different personalities and different Intents altering those original personalities....you're going to get sixteen vastly different approaches to 'godhood'. Honestly, the only three Vessels we can say with any certainty haven't been walking around in physical form are Ati, Leras and Sazed. Ati and Leras were both vastly limited in power and mobility by each other, and Sazed takes a decidedly distant approach to interacting with his Shardworld thanks in large part to his Intent. We really have no way of knowing if Aona, Skai or Tanavast ever manifested physically before Shattering....and no way of knowing if Rayse, Bavadin, Edgli or Cultivation have ever done so either. Even if they haven't, that doesn't mean they couldn't...just that for a variety of possible reasons, they've chosen not to. Maybe it would make them vulnerable in some way, maybe they just don't see a point to it, maybe they just don't like humanity enough to want to interact with them that closely if they don't have to, haha. But there's still seven other Vessels who could potentially have a much more hands on approach to interacting with humanity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant Returned Posted August 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 19 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said: Honestly, I don't see why they need to. They're god-entities who can see anywhere and in most cases talk to anyone anywhere directly in their thoughts. Why waste time moving a physical pawn to interact with people when you can move them directly? None of the Shards can just talk to anyone they want that we see? Sazed (and before him Ruin) had to have the person Hemalurgically Spiked to be able to talk to them, in SA Honor is able to talk to Dalinar but it seems that there's a special connection there that enabled that, he wouldn't have been able to talk to anyone. The shattered power of Devotion only talked to people when they were in her Shardpool, and Endowment has only done it when a pre-Returned dies. I think it's safe to say that as Cognitive aspects, Shards can only talk to people if they're spirit is damaged in some way, like Hemalurgy or minor insanity. So a big upside of being able to manifest as a physical avatar is actually talk face to face with anyone. This brings me back to the point of a possible God-King in the future, who's definition of god hood is direct control so he rules in a physical form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 Don't we see Ati's body when he dies? We don't know what happened on Sel -- was the big Odium/D&D battle mostly in the CR? Not sure if we have any good answers. One could be that the CR connects the PR and the SR, so manifesting in the PR could make the shard significantly more vulnerable and/or weaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 16 minutes ago, Argel said: Don't we see Ati's body when he die Yep. We also saw Vin's body reappear at the same time. That's a large part of why I think that the various Shards' bodies are still floating around somewhere. Part of the debate here is whether the Shards can manifest in those bodies if they really want to. The other part is whether the shards can create a physical avatar, related to their "original" body or not. A large part of the debate seems to be centered on, if this is possible, why we haven't seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djarskublar Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 Perhaps we have sort of seen this, or the effect anyway. The nightwatcher may be Cultivation, and the nightwatcher likely has a physical form. I'm of the opinion that they could totally create and manipulate an avatar. The idea that it would take too much concentration is ludicrous. Ati controlled a whole bunch of inquisitors at once with no issues. Whether it is highly dangerous for some reason... I can see that, but I cant imagine they are unable to do it in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PallonianFire Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 We have WoB that the Nightwatcher is a splinter of Cultivation on the order of the Stormfather:Honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djarskublar Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 44 minutes ago, PallonianFire said: We have WoB that the Nightwatcher is a splinter of Cultivation on the order of the Stormfather:Honor. Oh alright then. Haven't kept up with that aspect of Archive. Cool to know though. I've lurked here for a long time, and only in the last 6 months have I kept up at all or posted. My point about concentration still holds though. Shards have their conscious expanded. No way would controlling a puppet like an avatar pose a problem. Creating it in the first place is the tough part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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