Lighteyes origin? [Mistborn spoilers]

[dayman]

I'm almost positive Dalinar saw some light eyes in WoK flashbacks. I can't recall a description, but he does seem to take notice when he sees dark eyes in positions of power. And I'm pretty sure the Radiants had light eyes (although that isn't inconsistent with the first posts theory). 

[Elenion he/him]

48 minutes ago, dayman said:

I'm almost positive Dalinar saw some light eyes in WoK flashbacks. I can't recall a description, but he does seem to take notice when he sees dark eyes in positions of power. And I'm pretty sure the Radiants had light eyes (although that isn't inconsistent with the first posts theory). 

Seeing as they had Shardblades, I'd find it weird if they didn't have light eyes.

[VinKohlin she/her]

Did Noahdon(Sorry don't know how to spell his name) aka the guy who wrote the book the way of kings in WoK have light eyes? If so then my theory is even more likely wrong.

Edited August 3, 2016 by VinKohlin

[Pathfinder]

13 hours ago, VinKohlin said:

Did Noahdon(Sorry don't know how to spell his name) aka the guy who wrote the book the way of kings in WoK have light eyes? If so then my theory is even more likely wrong.

So I re-read the scene and Dalinar does not comment on it which leads to two possibilities. One, Nohadon is light eyes, because if he was darkeyes Dalinar would comment on how it was unusual for a king to be dark eyes like he has commented on it in the past. Or two, Nohadon is dark eyes, but Dalinar does not comment on it, because he is either now used to it having seen it in other visions, or was so busy gathering information for Navani to prove or disprove his visions that he did not pay attention to it. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

It should be noted that the Dark of darkeyes has nothing to with what we would call dark eyes on Earth. There are darkeyes with blue and green eyes, which we might call light. So it's not color, but tint. Or possibly that lighteyes literally have a faint glow behind the iris making the light part of the word refer to something else entirely. (It's kind of how I see it in my head. The eyes aren't actually lighter; they simply appear to be because they actually have a faint light shining through the iris. So darkeyes would have normal eyes, while lighteyes eyes would look kind of freaky to us.)

[Pathfinder]

8 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It should be noted that the Dark of darkeyes has nothing to with what we would call dark eyes on Earth. There are darkeyes with blue and green eyes, which we might call light. So it's not color, but tint. Or possibly that lighteyes literally have a faint glow behind the iris making the light part of the word refer to something else entirely. (It's kind of how I see it in my head. The eyes aren't actually lighter; they simply appear to be because they actually have a faint light shining through the iris. So darkeyes would have normal eyes, while lighteyes eyes would look kind of freaky to us.)

I agree and disagree. Yes I agree it is a matter of tint, but Kaladin remarks that the eye color is so dark, from afar it is typically just viewed as almost black. You really have to look hard into a person's eyes to tell if it is a blue dark eyes, green dark eyes, and so on. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

We'd have to actually see their eyes to know I think, due to how cultural the whole thing is to them. A question to ask Brandon might be how a Scadrian's eyes would be viewed on Roshar. Would they be seen as Dark or Light? 

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

We'd have to actually see their eyes to know I think, due to how cultural the whole thing is to them. A question to ask Brandon might be how a Scadrian's eyes would be viewed on Roshar. Would they be seen as Dark or Light? 

According to the book, all darkeyes are so dark you cannot tell unless you use the right light. 

 

page 50 The Way of Kings

Like Kaladin, the slave wore the remains of a brown sack tied with a rag, and he was darkeyes, of course - perhaps a deep dark green, though with darkeyes it was hard to tell. They all looked brown or black unless you caught them in the right light. 

 

page 653 The Way of Kings

"Sigzil said these violet eyes of mine aren't native to Alethkar. He thinks I must have Veden Blood in me."

"Your eyes aren't violet," Moash said

"Sure they are," Dunny said. "You can see it in bright sunlight. They're just really dark."

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Note that this comes from people in the world and the culture of that area. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying culture shapes perceptions so any Vorin character's view is suspect.

How often, especially in older books, is dark skin viewed as uniformly black, often described as jet or ebony? In reality, there are many variant shades of brown and you don't need perfect vision to see the difference in gradiation. But if your culture has taught you that all that matters is that that skin is 'dark' are you really going to notice? 

Vorin culture has taught that darkeyes eye color doesn't really matter. What matters is that it's dark. Lighteyes eye colors matter, so everyone takes note. It may well be that darkeyes eyes are actually very hard to differentiate; but it is equally possible that the culture has caused a strong tendency to view the eyes as 'dark' without bothering to look beyond that.

[Pathfinder]

21 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Note that this comes from people in the world and the culture of that area. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying culture shapes perceptions so any Vorin character's view is suspect.

How often, especially in older books, is dark skin viewed as uniformly black, often described as jet or ebony? In reality, there are many variant shades of brown and you don't need perfect vision to see the difference in gradiation. But if your culture has taught you that all that matters is that that skin is 'dark' are you really going to notice? 

Vorin culture has taught that darkeyes eye color doesn't really matter. What matters is that it's dark. Lighteyes eye colors matter, so everyone takes note. It may well be that darkeyes eyes are actually very hard to differentiate; but it is equally possible that the culture has caused a strong tendency to view the eyes as 'dark' without bothering to look beyond that.

I get what you are saying, and based on your response to the quote there is no conclusive way for me to convince you so all that is left is a WoB. (please don't take that statement negatively. I understand where you are coming from, just I disagree). The only other thing I could say, is that does occur on earth as well. I had an ex-girlfriend who was of Asian descent that had brown eyes so dark they looked black and she used to complain how hers is so dark you can't tell the color and how her ethnicity tends to have that. Now obviously that is not true of all asian ethnicities, but in her own experience she met a lot that also had the so dark it is black eye color. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Sounds like my husband! His eyes are a super dark olive green. Naturally his passport says brown. On the other hand, my father's eyes are obviously green, but I wouldn't call them 'light.' I do think it could go both ways, which is why I'd love to get a WoB on this too. 

Don't underestimate self delusion though; I know a man who, after 20+ years of marriage is still convinced his wife has blond hair. Anyone else would inform you that she very clearly has brown hair, which she has never dyed. He, however, was determined to marry a blond... and no amount of evidence will convince him that he didn't.

[Jofwu he/him]

I also agree that it seems they don't mean light and dark eyes in the same way that we do. I don't think it's clear what level of "lightness" qualifies you as a lighteyes... Though since there's never any sense of ambiguity to it, I assume it's a pretty sharp contrast between the two. I don't get the sense that there's a middle ground in lightness.

Gavilar's eyes are "pale green". Teleb's eyes are "light green". Roshone's are "brilliant green" and seem to glow in the dark. But Mosh has "dark green" eyes. We don't see any one with "dark blue eyes" as far as I can remember, but I don't see how it would be any different. And the existence of tan eyes (light brown), tells me that the same thing is true in the opposite direction. I don't think they're using it to mean the same thing we would.

[nervousnerd he/him]

I rechecked the visions myself and it was mainly only when Dalinar saw Radiants with especially light (almost white) eyes that he mentioned it and at Feverstone Keep where the man in charge was a darkeyes.

I agree that lighteyes were likely descended from Radiants and this is evidenced by Hoid saying that the reason lighteyes were rulers was a good one. I'm not entirely sure if that means that all Rosharans were darkeyes before the Radiants though. Especially since we haven't really explored many of the other nations.

It does make me wonder why the lighteyed ex-radiants who betrayed humanity would be given power after this act and also why they would take it when they already gave up the power they had before.

I also wonder how many of the Radiants there actually were, or at least how many laid down arms (and seemingly returned to their homes and ended up in charge). It seems like there would probably be a larger amount of lighteyes in the world if the numbers I have imagined were true. I suppose that if Bondsmiths were limited, that other orders may have had limits as well though.

[Djarskublar he/him]

Well I don't think they just came into power. They abandoned their responsibility. What they are saying is that the people who picked up the now dead Shardblades became lighteyes (proof: Moash) and because they had Blades they came into power. Then the lighteyes controlled the place.

[nervousnerd he/him]

17 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Well I don't think they just came into power. They abandoned their responsibility. What they are saying is that the people who picked up the now dead Shardblades became lighteyes (proof: Moash) and because they had Blades they came into power. Then the lighteyes controlled the place.

Hmm. I can't believe that I never saw it that way. I had always just assumed that since the Radiants were still alive after abandoning their shards, that they were the lighteyed ones who ended up ruling as well (not to say that it is not possible that they did). If what you say is the case though, then I do not see how Hoid can think it is a good reason. There is something missing here.

[VinKohlin she/her]

13 minutes ago, nervousnerd said:

Hmm. I can't believe that I never saw it that way. I had always just assumed that since the Radiants were still alive after abandoning their shards, that they were the lighteyed ones who ended up ruling as well (not to say that it is not possible that they did). If what you say is the case though, then I do not see how Hoid can think it is a good reason. There is something missing here.

I agree that something here is missing. We need to figure out why Hoid thinks there is a good reason behind lighteyes ruling. That would help I think.

[Djarskublar he/him]

I figured out what's missing here: they were friends with TLR when he... Oh wait. But seriously though, speak sofly and carry a big stick. When that big stick is a Shardblade, you win.

Maybe when the Shardblade rewrites you a bit to make your eyes different, it also rewrites you a bit to be more inclined to lead. Not a lot, but enough that after millenia, the lighteyes were the ones most likely to be on top at any given time. If that made any sense.

[nervousnerd he/him]

22 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

I figured out what's missing here: they were friends with TLR when he... Oh wait. But seriously though, speak sofly and carry a big stick. When that big stick is a Shardblade, you win.

Maybe when the Shardblade rewrites you a bit to make your eyes different, it also rewrites you a bit to be more inclined to lead. Not a lot, but enough that after millenia, the lighteyes were the ones most likely to be on top at any given time. If that made any sense.

Nah. I really don't see it as the fact that he thinks all light eyes are better leaders (for your reasoning or any other). I think it is more that it started out for a good reason for lighteyes to be in charge. I don't think dead spren blades change much about you besides your eye color and how other people see you.

I suppose it could just have been that they were the most powerful with their new blades but that doesn't seem like a good reason to me, even if it is a logical reason for people to follow someone (not dying and all).

[Djarskublar he/him]

Well there is the fact that there were more people than blades in the vision, so combat ensued. It's may the best man win there. Be you the best warrior, the most cunning, or the fastest runner, there is going to be something about the men who ended up as bearers that make them more likely to survive. Those survival skills would likely translate to better leadership. Warrior = conquerer. Cunning = politician with some serious weapons leverage.

Them realize that the weakest of those that ended up as bearers were probably weeded out by stronger people. When you suddenly have 300 shardbearers walk in to your kingdom and say they are in charge now. There isn't really anything you can do.

[nervousnerd he/him]

Quote

"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."

I saw this quote. It seems to indicate that I was wrong about many Radiants returning home after laying down arms as well.

Edited August 28, 2016 by nervousnerd

[dayman]

Is Zahel light eyes? 

[Rasarr she/her]

As an ardent, he's irrelevant-colour-eyes. Nevertheless, a minor, everyone-probably-knows spoiler:

Vasher is said to have brown eyes, IIRC, so I guess he'd be treated as darkeyes on Roshar.