Lighteyes origin? [Mistborn spoilers]

[VinKohlin she/her]

Okay so I'm probably wrong but the other day while listening to WoK and drawing a picture of Shallan, which was terrible by the way, I got to the part where Dalinar has his vision of the recreiance. (I so did not spell that write.) And when the people all rushed for the shard blades while the idea struck me that maybe there were only dark eyes on Roshar but then after the recreiance, since shard blades make you a light eyes, poeple got light eyes from the shard blades and as they married and stuff their light eye color and dark eye color combined to make a bunch of different colors. What do you guys think?

 

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

I've thought about that as well

[Elenion he/him]

33 minutes ago, VinKohlin said:

Okay so I'm probably wrong but the other day while listening to WoK and drawing a picture of Shallan, which was terrible by the way, I got to the part where Dalinar has his vision of the recreiance. (I so did not spell that write.) And when the people all rushed for the shard blades while the idea struck me that maybe there were only dark eyes on Roshar but then after the recreiance, since shard blades make you a light eyes, poeple got light eyes from the shard blades and as they married and stuff their light eye color and dark eye color combined to make a bunch of different colors. What do you guys think?

 

From my basic understanding of genetics, here's what I get.

1. In real life, dark eyes are dominant to light eyes
2. Any darkeyes who married lighteyes would have dark-eyed kids unless the darkeyes had a light-eyed parent somewhere in their ancestors
3. The light-eyes gene could only have survived in large numbers because of artificial selection: lighteyes might only want to marry other lighteyes
4. If we assume #3, then the population would have formed two different sub-societies of genes, one dark and one light
5. That leads to the problem: the same mechanism of selection that would keep the light-eyed gene alive would impair the formation of intermediate phenotypes (in short, very few crossbreeds would be made between lighteyes and darkeyes because they hate one another)

The way I see it, either the lighteyed gene would have died out or it would have to have existed in a reproductively-isolated part of the population (in our case, isolated by culture), and so in-between eyes would have been hard to come by. However, I'm sure there's some geneticist on the forums who would be a better source than I.

[Rasarr she/her]

I thought pretty much the same as @VinKohlin, although I'm guessing rather than mixing of Lighteyes and Darkeyes genes forming different colours, it's the order from which the blade has come that sets your eye colour - for example, if you grabbed a Windrunner Blade, you'd have blue eyes and your descendants would also, and if you grabbed a Truthwatcher Blade, you'd have green eyes, and so would your descendants. 

As for what @Elenion says, this sounds good, but we have to remember that there's also sDNA and Roshar's weird genetics to be considered - just the fact that you can have black-and-blond hair if your father is black-haired and your mother blond-haired proves that Rosharan humans don't really match up with Earth humans. Shardblade influences the eye colour, so sDNA plays some part in it, thus the light eyes may be dominant to dark eyes on Roshar - or it could be a toss of the dice. It could also be that all Rosharans have dark eyes per DNA, but lighteyes have lighter eye colour encoded in their sDNA, which would further complicate things. 

[Elenion he/him]

1 hour ago, Rasarr said:

I thought pretty much the same as @VinKohlin, although I'm guessing rather than mixing of Lighteyes and Darkeyes genes forming different colours, it's the order from which the blade has come that sets your eye colour - for example, if you grabbed a Windrunner Blade, you'd have blue eyes and your descendants would also, and if you grabbed a Truthwatcher Blade, you'd have green eyes, and so would your descendants. 

As for what @Elenion says, this sounds good, but we have to remember that there's also sDNA and Roshar's weird genetics to be considered - just the fact that you can have black-and-blond hair if your father is black-haired and your mother blond-haired proves that Rosharan humans don't really match up with Earth humans. Shardblade influences the eye colour, so sDNA plays some part in it, thus the light eyes may be dominant to dark eyes on Roshar - or it could be a toss of the dice. It could also be that all Rosharans have dark eyes per DNA, but lighteyes have lighter eye colour encoded in their sDNA, which would further complicate things. 

I have no idea what sDNA is, but the argument itself appears sound. 

[Pathfinder]

48 minutes ago, Elenion said:

I have no idea what sDNA is, but the argument itself appears sound. 

It was commented in world that a dark eyes and a light eyes marrying could have a light eyes child, or a dark eyes child, or occasionally a child with one light eye and one dark eye. sDNA is referring to spiritual dna which typically has to deal with what magic system you have access to (what planet you were born on, etc). 

[Elenion he/him]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It was commented in world that a dark eyes and a light eyes marrying could have a light eyes child, or a dark eyes child, or occasionally a child with one light eye and one dark eye. sDNA is referring to spiritual dna which typically has to deal with what magic system you have access to (what planet you were born on, etc). 

Weird. And I thought Sanderson's magic was complicated on the physics level!

[VinKohlin she/her]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

It was commented in world that a dark eyes and a light eyes marrying could have a light eyes child, or a dark eyes child, or occasionally a child with one light eye and one dark eye. sDNA is referring to spiritual dna which typically has to deal with what magic system you have access to (what planet you were born on, etc). 

So sDNA is basically spiritual DNA in the cosmere that effects you no matter where you're from? (within the cosmere of course).

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, VinKohlin said:

So sDNA is basically spiritual DNA in the cosmere that effects you no matter where you're from? (within the cosmere of course).

I am not the best person to explain this, as there is a lot to it, spiritual i believe (if i recall correctly, so please someone help me out), is your link to your magic. so yes, no matter what planet you are from in the cosmere, you have spiritual dna. It does not always mean you can use the magic, just that you have the sDNA linked up to that particular magic system. Now how it exactly applies to someone like Iyatil :

Spoiler

of southern scadrial descent, born on a different planet, and came to roshar

i have no idea. 

Edited August 1, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Emerald101 he/him]

sDNA also forms the spiritweb, which creates the Hemalurgic bindpoints, among other things.

[VinKohlin she/her]

Just now, Emerald101 said:

sDNA also forms the spiritweb, which creates the Hemalurgic bindpoints, among other things.

So without sDNA the entirety of the magic system in the cosmere wouldn't work. Am I correct?

[Elenion he/him]

7 hours ago, Emerald101 said:

sDNA also forms the spiritweb, which creates the Hemalurgic bindpoints, among other things.

What is this spiritweb you speak of? Sorry, I'm woefully uneducated about the Cosmere.

[VinKohlin she/her]

Just now, Elenion said:

What is this spiritweb you speak of? Sorry, I'm woefully uneducated about the Cosmere.

As am I.

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, VinKohlin said:

So without sDNA the entirety of the magic system in the cosmere wouldn't work. Am I correct?

 

9 hours ago, Elenion said:

What is this spiritweb you speak of? Sorry, I'm woefully uneducated about the Cosmere.

 

8 hours ago, VinKohlin said:

As am I.

Well the entire cosmere is broken down into three realms, the physical, the cognitive, and the spiritual. The physical is pretty self explanatory. The cognitive we have seen so far in the Stormlight archive where Rosharians refer to it as Shadesmar. If you have read Secret History then you have seen Scadrial's version of it. Then there is the spiritual realm. I believe there was a WoB where it stated that is where all magic resides, but don't quote me on that. So everyone in the cosmere has a "spirit web". When there are cracks made into this web, due to trauma or the very nature of that world's magic system, then investiture can fill in those cracks. The person is then considered "invested" and can use that magic system. The way hemalurgy works is you use the spike to "rip out" that person's spirit web that contains the capability to use that magic, and "staple" it to your own, gifting you with the ability. I believe everyone in the cosmere has sDNA, just whether certain abilities are inheritable I believe depends planet to planet. Scadrial is passed down. Rosharian you need to get a spren. Nathis you need to either born with breath, or have it given to you (and you cannot Return unless you were born there). I believe there is a Cosmere 101 thread that probably explains this better than I do. I have enough of a grasp to keep up with a lot of the discussions but a lot of it is still pretty over my head. Once you get into focuses, manifestations, and how nicrosil works, my eyes go blank lol. 

[Elenion he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

 

 

Well the entire cosmere is broken down into three realms, the physical, the cognitive, and the spiritual. The physical is pretty self explanatory. The cognitive we have seen so far in the Stormlight archive where Rosharians refer to it as Shadesmar. If you have read Secret History then you have seen Scadrial's version of it. Then there is the spiritual realm. I believe there was a WoB where it stated that is where all magic resides, but don't quote me on that. So everyone in the cosmere has a "spirit web". When there are cracks made into this web, due to trauma or the very nature of that world's magic system, then investiture can fill in those cracks. The person is then considered "invested" and can use that magic system. The way hemalurgy works is you use the spike to "rip out" that person's spirit web that contains the capability to use that magic, and "staple" it to your own, gifting you with the ability. I believe everyone in the cosmere has sDNA, just whether certain abilities are inheritable I believe depends planet to planet. Scadrial is passed down. Rosharian you need to get a spren. Nathis you need to either born with breath, or have it given to you (and you cannot Return unless you were born there). I believe there is a Cosmere 101 thread that probably explains this better than I do. I have enough of a grasp to keep up with a lot of the discussions but a lot of it is still pretty over my head. Once you get into focuses, manifestations, and how nicrosil works, my eyes go blank lol. 

So when you Snap (for allomancy), you break on the spiritual level and so are now invested?

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Elenion said:

So when you Snap (for allomancy), you break on the spiritual level and so are now invested?

Correct. The snapping, or breaking creates cracks in your spirit web for the investiture to seep in. That's why the prevailing theory (i am not sure if I recall if this was absolutely confirmed), that everyone with magical powers is "damaged" in some way or another. Same thing on Roshar, just it is spren (investiture) that fills up the cracks. That is why everyone wants to know what happened to Jasnah and Renarin in the past that made them able to get a spren, and also argue over whether or not Adolin is "damaged enough" to attract a spren. Right now the question is what level of "damage" or if you even need to be "damaged" (like it was mentioned in mistborn that high emotions, including happiness could snap you) in order to cause cracks in your spirit web for investiture. Also there seems to be a concern regarding how wide you make those cracks. One example is spook when he is a savant. He forced investiture through his cracks far more than he should, widening them till you got the result we see. But then you have Wax who is a steel savant with minimal negative affects. 

[Elenion he/him]

22 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Correct. The snapping, or breaking creates cracks in your spirit web for the investiture to seep in. That's why the prevailing theory (i am not sure if I recall if this was absolutely confirmed), that everyone with magical powers is "damaged" in some way or another. Same thing on Roshar, just it is spren (investiture) that fills up the cracks. That is why everyone wants to know what happened to Jasnah and Renarin in the past that made them able to get a spren, and also argue over whether or not Adolin is "damaged enough" to attract a spren. Right now the question is what level of "damage" or if you even need to be "damaged" (like it was mentioned in mistborn that high emotions, including happiness could snap you) in order to cause cracks in your spirit web for investiture. Also there seems to be a concern regarding how wide you make those cracks. One example is spook when he is a savant. He forced investiture through his cracks far more than he should, widening them till you got the result we see. But then you have Wax who is a steel savant with minimal negative affects. 

I actually haven't read the Wax/Wayne books so I don't really know what savantism is, other than that's what happens when you burn too much.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Elenion

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Elenion said:

I actually haven't read the Wax/Wayne books so I don't really know what savantism is, other than that's what happens when you burn too much.

It comes up in the original trilogy and in the annotations. Another example of a steel savant is Kelsier. He was able to push and pull on different parts of a metal pole when normally you get a line that is the center of the mass of the metal object. 

[Elenion he/him]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

It comes up in the original trilogy and in the annotations. Another example of a steel savant is Kelsier. He was able to push and pull on different parts of a metal pole when normally you get a line that is the center of the mass of the metal object. 

So savantism is like developing additional skills with your metals other than the basic effect? If so, what are other examples?

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Elenion said:

So savantism is like developing additional skills with your metals other than the basic effect? If so, what are other examples?

For copper I believe it is a bigger cloud (I believe there was a WoB for this one). For bronze it is being able to identify specific metals (like in Marsh's case), or other forms of investiture (feruchemy, surgebinding, etc. There is a WoB for this one too). 

this spoiler is due to you not reading the wax and wayne books. it isn't really a spoiler to the series, but it is up to you if you want to read it:

Spoiler

wax creates a steel "bubble" where he pushes lightly in all directions. So when someone shoots at him, his "bubble" reacts to the pressure, and slightly deflects the trajectory enough that a lethal shot might only wound. 

 

Edited August 2, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Elenion he/him]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

For copper I believe it is a bigger cloud (I believe there was a WoB for this one). For bronze it is being able to identify specific metals (like in Marsh's case), or other forms of investiture (feruchemy, surgebinding, etc. There is a WoB for this one too). 

this spoiler is due to you not reading the wax and wayne books. it isn't really a spoiler to the series, but it is up to you if you want to read it:

  Reveal hidden contents

wax creates a steel "bubble" where he pushes lightly in all directions. So when someone shoots at him, his "bubble" reacts to the pressure, and slightly deflects the trajectory enough that a lethal shot might only wound. 

 

Can't anyone use bronze to identify specific metals? Vin does it after only a few days training under Kelsier.

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Elenion said:

Can't anyone use bronze to identify specific metals? Vin does it after only a few days training under Kelsier.

Marsh stated that with practice you could, and that he was surprised that Vin caught on to something that took him (if i recall correctly) years. Vin is the exception to the rule for a lot of things lol.

[Emerald101 he/him]

Vin also had a hemalurgic spike, which amped her power up. Savantism occurs when enough "pressure" is put on the spiritweb to cause the channels to widen and allow more power through. Spook in HoA is the most obvious example of a Savant. Savants a more powerful in their metal, and more likely to develop special tricks/uses (a coppper savant could theoretically shield other's emotions, for example). By WoB, a savant is no longer human.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Emerald101

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Moved this to the Stormlight forum and added a note in the title for Mistborn spoilers.

[Elenion he/him]

9 minutes ago, WeiryWriter said:

Moved this to the Stormlight forum and added a note in the title for Mistborn spoilers.

Nice. Wouldn't want to Ruin this for others. (see what I did there?)