Did shards get a choice?

[djammmer]

My understanding is the 16 people that shattered Adonalsium were chosen (or self selected) pre shattering.  I get that.

My question - is did they each choose which shard to take?   Did Rayse specifically choose Odium?   Did Ati choose Ruin?

[Samaldin he/him]

My guess is when they picked up the shards the shard were kind of blank. Thy Intents of the shards only came after some time, dictated by what the Vessel believed in or found important. I base this theory on Leras/Preservation saying that Ati always claimed "Everything passes, nothing is eternal", so Ati didn´t take Ruin, Ati transformed a blank Shard into Ruin.

[antgrgmn he/him]

Just now, Samaldin said:

My guess is when they picked up the shards the shard were kind of blank. Thy Intents of the shards only came after some time, dictated by what the Vessel believed in or found important. I base this theory on Leras/Preservation saying that Ati always claimed "Everything passes, nothing is eternal", so Ati didn´t take Ruin, Ati transformed a blank Shard into Ruin.

However, the letter says that Ati was once a kind and gentle man. This make it hard for me to believe that he shaped the shards intent.

[Samaldin he/him]

I see no problem with Ati having been a kind and gentle man, while still shaping Ruin. His believe in things ending could have just been a stronger aspect of his personality than his caring nature. This believe itself could have been a positive character trait (i think Leras and Ati were gay, but Yolish society didn´t accept that and his belief was that someday that prejudice would end).

[CaptainRyan he/him]

I think Frost's letter implies that Rayse was a hateful person and that his Shard matched that - i.e. The Shard Odium was already of Hatred and that Intent matched Rayse's temperament. I could be wrong about that though.

[Samaldin he/him]

5 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I think Frost's letter implies that Rayse was a hateful person and that his Shard matched that - i.e. The Shard Odium was already of Hatred and that Intent matched Rayse's temperament. I could be wrong about that though.

Rayse being hatefull also works with the theory that the Intent is shaped by the Vessel. Maybe the Intent is shaped by the primary personality trait, when the Shard is picked up, but slowly overrides the human mind. So Rayse was always hatefull, but he had a reason for it, after picking up a shard he shaped the Intent to be Odium and that in return destroyed everything else of his character. Actually i wouldn´t be surprised if having a Shard slowly destroys the soul of the Vessel, humans probably were never intended to wield these powers.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

4 minutes ago, Samaldin said:

Rayse being hatefull also works with the theory that the Intent is shaped by the Vessel. Maybe the Intent is shaped by the primary personality trait, when the Shard is picked up, but slowly overrides the human mind. So Rayse was always hatefull, but he had a reason for it, after picking up a shard he shaped the Intent to be Odium and that in return destroyed everything else of his character. Actually i wouldn´t be surprised if having a Shard slowly destroys the soul of the Vessel, humans probably were never intended to wield these powers.

Frost refers to Odium's Intent as: "He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context."

I would imagine that is Odium was a reflection of Rayse's anger then it would not be referred to as "God's", which is, I think, Frost's way of saying Adonalsium.

For the record, I do want to say that I am unsure of whether or not the Intents came with the Shards immediately or later. You could very well be correct but I am merely sharing my take on what we know.

[Samaldin he/him]

Even if the Intent is shaped by the Vesel, the Shard itself is of Adonalsium, which in my eyes would make the Intent divine. Also Frost could simply be wrong about the Intent being "Gods own divine hatred" since probably something like the shattering only happend once. Also i believe there is a WoB that different Shards could have been created by the shattering if different people would have been there, so the people had at least some influence on the Intents.

Also i apologize if my posts sound aggressive, i don´t mean to be. (Especially since it would make me look really bad if i end up wrong, which could very well happen^^)

[+Kolten]

My guess is that in order for adonalsium to split, people had to be chosen that would attract certain intents, and the power once split would naturally go to them. This would explain why they would need rayse's help despite him being rather blatantly hateful. They needed a hateful person to capture gods  divine hatred so to speak.

As for ruin, it is not de facto evil. Ati  could have been a revolutionary who saw great need for change and wiping the slate clean. The intent of the shard just took it to an extreme over time

[Oversleep]

15 minutes ago, Samaldin said:

i believe there is a WoB that different Shards could have been created by the shattering if different people would have been there

There is a WoB that Adonalsium could Shatter into different Shards, but Ibelieve that that WoB doesn't mention different people.

Brandon talking about that Scadrial could have had it worse, because they got the one of the best possible Ruins make me think Intents were not related to the original Shardholders.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Oversleep

[Samaldin he/him]

4 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

There is a WoB that Adonalsium could Shatter into different Shards, but Ibelieve that that WoB doesn't mention different people.

Brandon talking about that Scadrial could have had it worse, because they got the one of the best possible Ruins make me think Intents were not related to the original Shardholders.

Found the quote (Entry 114). The questions asks about Intents, so if the Intents aren´t a constant i would assume that the people responsible for the shattering determinded the Intents. Of course it could have also been the method they used which determined the Intents instead of the people, which would make them kind of pre-determined...

I NEED DRAGONSTEEL TO GIVE US ANSWERS!!!^^

[+Kolten]

Knowing Brandon Sanderson, it will come together in a brilliantly obvious way that has been foreshadowed since elantris

[Radiant Returned he/him]

My theory for the Shattering has always been that Adonalsium's personality was shattered into 16 different pieces, and the Shardholders took them up with some pre-meditation but without maybe all the details figured out among themselves because they didn't know exactly how the pieces would come out. Sanderson's exact words:

Quote

Um...it...Adonalsium could have been shattered in other ways.

To me that just means obviously you could separate a person's personality in more than just one way, I never gleaned that the Shardholders made their own intents. The fact that Ati was a nice guy but turned into Ruin comes across to me as him understanding the dangers of the Shard, but thinking that with who he is that he would be the one best able to fight off the Shard's natural desires. After a while, it finally warped him. The same holds true to Rayse, except he wanted to remain the person he was except powerful, so he took on the hate-fueled Shard (probably without the direct permission of his colleagues) out of greed and lust for power. 

[goody153]

Wouldn't it be funny if the way how who took which shard works is that it was first come first serve, so some of them are probably just like "w/e i'll just take this" and possibly tanavast/bavadin/rayse got to pick first so they picked honor/autonomy/odium independently.

And probably nice dudes like Ati wouldn't have wanted a shard of destruction like Ruin but got nothing else left to pick out so he just took it lol

Edited July 23, 2016 by goody153

[Ari he/him]

There's a WoB that implies or states that it wasn't accidental who got what Shard, either. So I'm pretty sure once they saw how Adonalsium had split, there would have been some level of agreement as to who picked up what- I've been searching on Theoryland but I think it's either tagged in a non-obvious way or just difficult to search for using the relate terms such as Adonalsium or Shards, so I can't give you the exact wording.

[+Kolten]

SH spoilers

It would seem there needs to be a fairly strong connection to either the power or the intent to truly ascend to a shard. It mentions how kelsier's connection juice trick did not really let kelsier truly control preservation very well because he had more ruin in him anyway. Also it mentions that part of the reason Sazed could ascend was because he had developed a connection to ruin and to preservation. So I would think that to some degree the original 16 had to be at least somewhat aligned with the shards intent. Unless of course the intents came later . . .

[Radiant Returned he/him]

14 hours ago, Kolten said:

SH spoilers

 

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It would seem there needs to be a fairly strong connection to either the power or the intent to truly ascend to a shard. It mentions how kelsier's connection juice trick did not really let kelsier truly control preservation very well because he had more ruin in him anyway. Also it mentions that part of the reason Sazed could ascend was because he had developed a connection to ruin and to preservation. So I would think that to some degree the original 16 had to be at least somewhat aligned with the shards intent. Unless of course the intents came later . . .

 

I think it's very possible though that the method for the original shard holders was different, specifically because the description of Ati doesn't seem to have any similarities to Ruin's intent. 

Also SH spoilers 

Spoiler

The magic the Ire possesses that influences Connection and allows Kelsier to take up the power of Preservation seems like a big clue to me. I'd be willing to bet that magic similar to this was used by the early shardholders immediately after they shattered Adonalsium. 

 

[CaptainRyan he/him]

18 hours ago, Kolten said:

SH spoilers

 

  Reveal hidden contents

It would seem there needs to be a fairly strong connection to either the power or the intent to truly ascend to a shard. It mentions how kelsier's connection juice trick did not really let kelsier truly control preservation very well because he had more ruin in him anyway. Also it mentions that part of the reason Sazed could ascend was because he had developed a connection to ruin and to preservation. So I would think that to some degree the original 16 had to be at least somewhat aligned with the shards intent. Unless of course the intents came later . . .

 

I believe Kelsier's main issue was that he was a Cognitive Shadow. If the Ire magic was insufficient then the Elantrian (forget her name) who planned on picking up Preservation would have been screwed as well. 

[+Kolten]

SH spoilers

some pertinent quotes

Quote

The creature merely laughed louder. “You can barely control it,” Ruin said. “Even assuming it could harm me, you couldn’t accomplish such a task. Look at you, Kelsier! You haven’t form or shape. You’re not alive, you’re an idea . A memory of a man holding the power will never be as potent as a real one with ties to all three Realms.”

So yes a big part of his difficulty was that he was a cognitive shadow . . .

Quote

He pulled Kelsier away as Sazed reached for the powers, one with each hand. Kelsier stood in awe of the way they combined. He’d always seen these powers as opposites, yet as they swirled around Sazed it seemed that they actually belonged to one another. “How?” he whispered. “How is he Connected to them both, so evenly? Why not just Preservation?” “He has changed, this last year,” Elend said. “Ruin is more than death and destruction. It is peace with these things.”

Connection to the shard if definitely part of it, not just anyone could ascend . . .  (also ruin is not necessarily flat out evil, I would say over time the intent pulls people to an extreme, but a kind and generous man who had a spark of ruin in him could probably accomplish great things that were good. I would say that kind and generous does not automatically exclude traces of ruin in a personality)

 

Quote

But hadn’t Preservation told Kelsier that such a thing was impossible? You wouldn’t be able to hold my power anyway, Preservation had said. You’re not Connected enough to me. He’d seen that now firsthand, in the space between moments. Were these creatures somehow Connected enough to Preservation to take the power? Kelsier doubted it. So what was their plan?

So connection seems to be a big deal, but despite that the Ire's device seemed to have no problem hacking it. How much of Kelsier's limitations were due to him being a cognitive shadow, and how much were due to his fake connection though, hard to say. There is enough of an argument for both sides that it could go either way, or at least that is my opinion. Still interesting stuff. There was one more quote I saw from Khriss that might give a clue as to how the adonalsium was originally shattered

Quote

“Anyway, there was a God. Adonalsium. I don’t know if it was a force or a being, though I suspect the latter. Sixteen people, together, killed Adonalsium, ripping it apart and dividing its essence between them, becoming the first who Ascended.” “Who were they?” Kelsier said, trying to make sense of this. “A diverse group,” she said. “With equally diverse motives. Some wished for the power; others saw killing Adonalsium as the only good option left to them. Together they murdered a deity, and became divine themselves.” She smiled in a kindly way, as if to prepare him for what came next. “Two of those created this planet, Survivor, including the people on it.”

the whole "dividing its essence between them" could imply some level of choice among the 16, but the wording is vague . . .

 

[Ari he/him]

12 hours ago, Radiant Returned said:

I think it's very possible though that the method for the original shard holders was different, specifically because the description of Ati doesn't seem to have any similarities to Ruin's intent. 

Also SH spoilers 

  Hide contents

The magic the Ire possesses that influences Connection and allows Kelsier to take up the power of Preservation seems like a big clue to me. I'd be willing to bet that magic similar to this was used by the early shardholders immediately after they shattered Adonalsium. 

 

Uh, not necessarily. Hoid has implied that Ati's personality was very different to the motivations of the shard Ruin. That doesn't mean he wasn't connected to it in some way. For instance, a gentle man that understood that the universe was slowly heading towards heat death and that there was nothing to do to stop it, and that accepted that all things ended in their time... well, that would be a kind and decent man with a heavy connection to Ruin, in my books, and very similar to how Sazed ended up connected to both halves of Harmony.

Combine that with the fact that a gentle and kind man without any force counterbalancing Ruin might end up heavily exposed to the influence of its Intent, and that adequately explains why Ati's personality changed so much while still accounting for Occam's razor, ie. not requiring us to think the rules for holding a Shard have changed since the Shattering.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Ari
typo corrected

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Oddly, I always see Ati as a grief councillor. He accepts death as a natural part of life and helps others come to that understanding so they can move on from loss. Then he picked up the force of Entropy...