Harmony is really dumb. [Bands BoM, SoS and AoL spoilers]

[Nepene]

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Something is wrong, unfortunately.

“What?” Wax asked.

God was silent for a time. I don’t know yet. Mistborn 2

Harmony is being unhelpful to Scadrial, above and beyond what is necessary for him to do from mental influences due to his shards, due to his personality and his poor mental judgement.

In particular, he is overestimating how fast technology should be developing, and has a large overemphasis on economic factors and statistics of the same sort Marasi has. This is blinding him to serious threats which could destroy all life on Scadrial.

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Already I fear that I have made things too easy for men. This city, the perfect climate, the ground that renews … You were to have had the radio a century ago, but you didn’t need it, so you didn’t strive for it. You ignore aviation, and cannot tame the wilds because you don’t care to study proper irrigation or fertilization.

“The … radio? What is that?”

You don’t explore, Harmony continued, ignoring Wax’s confusion. Why would you? You have everything you want here. You’ve barely progressed technologically from what I gave you in the books. Yet others, who were nearly destroyed …Mistborn 2

 

Harmony is very worried about interfering too much. Here, he worries that because he helped them too much they are developing technologically too slowly.

This is dumb.

The vast majority of Scadrial's populace died. A small number, probably mostly those who were fast at running, not those who remembered technology, survived. In general they had late medieval technology, maybe 13th-14th century tech in most areas. Three centuries later, with a very small populace they now have 19th-20th century technology, advancing far faster than earthkind did with a far greater population and more scientists and libraries and books. They are advancing incredibly quickly. The two advances, radio and aviation, that he mentions first were likely inspired by the Set and the Southerns having such tech. He took very much the wrong lesson from this. They likely only had the tech because of outside divine interference, from Trell whoever that is for the Set, and their god emperor for the Southerners, two people who have both held the full power of shards and as such have access to outside knowledge. He's incredibly wrong about them being unable to tame the wilds because of them not studying irrigation and fertilization- people are out there trying to tame the roughs.

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“Harmony’s forearms,” Waxillium mumbled, stepping into the grand ballroom. “This is what passes for a modest wedding dinner these days? There are more people in here than live in entire towns in the Roughs.” Mistborn 2

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"The population of our octant is around six hundred thousand," Mistborn 1

So, with perhaps 8*600000 4.8 million people in the city, they probably just don't have enough people around to make a major effort to colonize the roughs, and as such aren't spending their time developing agricultural tech, they're spending their time teching up incredibly quickly in other areas.

The lesson Harmony took from them having a low population and so less exploration tech and other nations having higher tech in certain areas because they have divine aid (and unknown metals) is that he gave people too much help increasing their population and too much divine aid and that with less aid in raising their population and less divine aid they'd be more advanced. This is really dumb, and a sign that Harmony isn't thinking that straight. He may be thinking a billion times faster than a man which means his logic is a billion times more sucky. Garbage in, garbage out.

What is he doing?

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“And once nobody is ever hurt,” Harmony said, “will people be satisfied? Will they not pray to me and ask for more? Will some people still curse and spit at the sound of my name because they are poor, while another is rich? Should I mitigate this, make everyone the same, Waxillium?”

“I won’t be caught in this trap,” Wax said. “You’re the God, not me. You can find a line where You prevent the worst. You can find a line where You’re stopping the worst that is reasonable, while still letting us live our lives.”...

“Perhaps,” Harmony said softly, “I have already done just as you suggest. You do not see it, because the worst never reaches you.” Mistborn 3

 

He's worrying that if he helps people too much he'll still face a reputation issue, and is saying he is doing the best he can.

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Now, he didn’t care much for what rich folks said was worth money. Unless it was, by itself, worth more than a house. Little Sophi Tarcsel, the inventor, did need more funds. Mistborn 3

Despite the obvious fact that more wealth equality would mean more inventors like her could tech up Scadrial, the thing he seems to care most about, and the fact that most people would probably be happy if he vastly increased everyone's happiness, even if some still cursed him.

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“I am sorry,” Harmony said with a gentle voice, “for your pain. I am sorry for what you did, what we had to do. But I am not sorry for making you do what had to be done.” Mistborn 3

And he regrets nothing about his bad judgement that led to Trell spiking Wax's babe on Scadrial.

What are his enemies doing?

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“No longer. Recent advances have made civilization here too dangerous. Allowing it to continue risks further advances we cannot control, and so we have decided to remove life on this sphere instead. Thank you for your service; it has been accepted. You will be allowed to serve in another Realm.”

“But—”

The creature engaged the explosive device, blowing itself—and Suit—to oblivion.

 

Using technology from the gods to exterminate all life on the planet. Also likely using Trellium to hide from sight as per above.

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“No,” MeLaan said. “It’s from somewhere else. She used these strange spikes to steal attributes, instead of the ones we’re familiar with. Maybe that’s why she could use stolen Allomancy and Feruchemy, when other kandra can’t. Either way, didn’t you wonder why Harmony couldn’t see Bleeder? Couldn’t track her, couldn’t predict her? What could stop a god, Marasi Colms? Any guesses?”

“Another god,” Marasi whispered.

“Congratulations,” MeLaan said, pulling open the door. “You’ve found proof of something that terrifies us. Think on that for a while, before you go around accusing Harmony—or the kandra—of anything. Mistborn 2.

 

The most important function of a god is to restrain spiritual threats from destroying you, like trellium threats. Harmony is worrying about how advanced their irrigation technology and responding to an outside magical incursion while Trell is preparing nuclear level ettmetal weapons to wipe out all life on the planet. Contrary to Melaan's suggestions, we should be accusing Harmony of dropping the ball. The ball is majorly dropped. A terrifying threat is emerging with numerous early warnings, a strategic nuclear weapon was detected with the ettmetal bomb, and Harmony is moaning to people that their crops aren't big enough and blaming Wax for his major spiritual mess ups that led to him tricking him to kill his ex.

Harmony should be recognizing the seriousness of the threat and responding to the divine incursion. Instead he's acting like Marasi.

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Marasi is always talking about things like that, he thought. How the lawkeeping of the future will be about statistics, not shotguns. He tried to imagine a world where murders were prevented by careful civic planning, and found himself unable to see it. People would always kill. Mistborn 3

When there are people actively seeking to exterminate all life on the planet for religious reasons the time for statistics and careful civil planning is past, it is time for murder. Unfortunately, instead of that he convinced Wax of the necessity for restraint in use of divine power, and talked about how too much intervention will slow technological progress.

Harmony should have told his Kandra and other servants to force the bands of mourning on Wax, and ordered him to begin extermination of the Set as soon as possible, perhaps cracking open his uncle with allomancy and hemalurgy. He should have been actively recruiting tin twinborns to bypass his limitations with sight and spot hidden kandra. If he can, he should be actively taking to the field to exterminate foreign magical presences on his planet, and if not, he should be pulling out all the big guns he can.

There's no particular reason in Preservation or Ruin why Harmony should be really stupid with statistics and technological progress and his estimations of when to take it seriously. This is in the human element.

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I began to wonder what it would be like to have a kind of missionary who preached a hundred different religions. A man who, instead of advancing his own beliefs, tried to match a set of beliefs to the person—kind of like a tailor looking to fit a man with the prefect and most comfortable hat.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=826

This has always been the human element of him, a person who understands a hundred different religions and is dedicated to maintaining them, a person dedicated to preserving the best of other cultures. He grew up hating his own culture, that of the Lord Ruler (and being told to hate his secret Terris culture), and revering numerous other religions. And here, he lets his emotional biases affect him, insulting the culture he created for not being fast enough and revering the technology of the Set (and Odium?) and the Survivor, refusing to defend his own culture against another that seeks to exterminate everything with more than subtle pushes and preventing people like Wax from fixing his mistakes with speeches about restraint in use of power right before he gets a magical artifact that could fix everything and lead to a totally badass fourth book.

Tolerance of intolerance leads to extermination of the tolerant. Sazed needs to be less like a man, and more like a vengeful god. Trell is beating him, and he really needs to step up his game before Trell wipes the field.

Those are my thoughts, having just read the book.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Nepene

[asterion137]

1 hour ago, Nepene said:

Harmony is being unhelpful to Scadrial, above and beyond what is necessary for him to do from mental influences due to his shards, due to his personality and his poor mental judgement.

In particular, he is overestimating how fast technology should be developing, and has a large overemphasis on economic factors and statistics of the same sort Marasi has. This is blinding him to serious threats which could destroy all life on Scadrial.

Harmony is very worried about interfering too much. Here, he worries that because he helped them too much they are developing technologically too slowly.

This is dumb.

The vast majority of Scadrial's populace died. A small number, probably mostly those who were fast at running, not those who remembered technology, survived. In general they had late medieval technology, maybe 13th-14th century tech in most areas. Three centuries later, with a very small populace they now have 19th-20th century technology, advancing far faster than earthkind did with a far greater population and more scientists and libraries and books. They are advancing incredibly quickly. The two advances, radio and aviation, that he mentions first were likely inspired by the Set and the Southerns having such tech. He took very much the wrong lesson from this. They likely only had the tech because of outside divine interference, from Trell whoever that is for the Set, and their god emperor for the Southerners, two people who have both held the full power of shards and as such have access to outside knowledge. He's incredibly wrong about them being unable to tame the wilds because of them not studying irrigation and fertilization- people are out there trying to tame the roughs.

Keep in mind that Harmony has no idea how fast tech developed on Earth. He has no reference point upon which to judge Scadrial's technological developement.  Also Final Empire Scadrial actually had a lot of 18-19th century tech such as canned food and the capacity to build gigantic structures such as kredik shaw. They were similar in population to 19-20th century Europe and the only defining feature of the 18th century they were missing was gunpowder (which was suppressed by TLR).

So, with perhaps 8*600000 4.8 million people in the city, they probably just don't have enough people around to make a major effort to colonize the roughs, and as such aren't spending their time developing agricultural tech, they're spending their time teching up incredibly quickly in other areas.

The lesson Harmony took from them having a low population and so less exploration tech and other nations having higher tech in certain areas because they have divine aid (and unknown metals) is that he gave people too much help increasing their population and too much divine aid and that with less aid in raising their population and less divine aid they'd be more advanced. This is really dumb, and a sign that Harmony isn't thinking that straight. He may be thinking a billion times faster than a man which means his logic is a billion times more sucky. Garbage in, garbage out. <=====lmao have an upvote

What is he doing?

He's worrying that if he helps people too much he'll still face a reputation issue, and is saying he is doing the best he can.

I think he meant that people would complain about the amount of involvement he maintained no matter what it was. He is saying he believes he has found a point where people can live their lives freely while keeping mass destruction from scadrial.

Despite the obvious fact that more wealth equality would mean more inventors like her could tech up Scadrial, the thing he seems to care most about, and the fact that most people would probably be happy if he vastly increased everyone's happiness, even if some still cursed him.

I don't think imposing communism upon Scadrial would improve much.

And he regrets nothing about his bad judgement that led to Trell spiking Wax's babe on Scadrial.

I think his reasoning regarding that was perfectly fine. He actually said "I am sorry for what your pain". He is sorry for his bad judgement that led Paalm to betray him. He is not sorry for making Wax kill her. I wouldn't be sorry either in that situation.

What are his enemies doing?

Using technology from the gods to exterminate all life on the planet. Also likely using Trellium to hide from sight as per above.

The most important function of a god is to restrain spiritual threats from destroying you, like trellium threats. Harmony is worrying about how advanced their irrigation technology and responding to an outside magical incursion while Trell is preparing nuclear level ettmetal weapons to wipe out all life on the planet. Contrary to Melaan's suggestions, we should be accusing Harmony of dropping the ball. The ball is majorly dropped. A terrifying threat is emerging with numerous early warnings, a strategic nuclear weapon was detected with the ettmetal bomb, and Harmony is moaning to people that their crops aren't big enough and blaming Wax for his major spiritual mess ups that led to him tricking him to kill his ex.

Suit was most likely bluffing regarding the "destroy a small city" crap. The ettmetal bomb the "faceless immortal" used barely blew up a single room.

Harmony should be recognizing the seriousness of the threat and responding to the divine incursion. Instead he's acting like Marasi.

When there are people actively seeking to exterminate all life on the planet for religious reasons the time for statistics and careful civil planning is past, it is time for murder. Unfortunately, instead of that he convinced Wax of the necessity for restraint in use of divine power, and talked about how too much intervention will slow technological progress.

Harmony should have told his Kandra and other servants to force the bands of mourning on Wax, and ordered him to begin extermination of the Set as soon as possible, perhaps cracking open his uncle with allomancy and hemalurgy. He should have been actively recruiting tin twinborns to bypass his limitations with sight and spot hidden kandra. If he can, he should be actively taking to the field to exterminate foreign magical presences on his planet, and if not, he should be pulling out all the big guns he can.

We haven't actually seen what Harmony is doing with the Bands. However, I agree that the most logical thing to save the world as of BoM would be to replicate the bands hundreds of times and make each of his loyal kandra into a copy of The Lord Ruler. However, nothing the Set have done so far is drastic enough to provoke Sazed enforcing martial law. Harmony seems to like letting his people have free will.

There's no particular reason in Preservation or Ruin why Harmony should be really stupid with statistics and technological progress and his estimations of when to take it seriously. This is in the human element.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=826

This has always been the human element of him, a person who understands a hundred different religions and is dedicated to maintaining them, a person dedicated to preserving the best of other cultures. He grew up hating his own culture, that of the Lord Ruler (and being told to hate his secret Terris culture), and revering numerous other religions. And here, he lets his emotional biases affect him, insulting the culture he created for not being fast enough and revering the technology of the Set (and Odium?) and the Survivor, refusing to defend his own culture against another that seeks to exterminate everything with more than subtle pushes and preventing people like Wax from fixing his mistakes with speeches about restraint in use of power right before he gets a magical artifact that could fix everything and lead to a totally badass fourth book.

I personally doubt Trell is Odium. Brandon has stated that Hoid is not particularly interested in the events of AoL era Scadrial (compared with the events of the stormlight archive) and I feel if Odium was Trell Hoid would be a lot more involved because he HATES Rayse.

Tolerance of intolerance leads to extermination of the tolerant. Sazed needs to be less like a man, and more like a vengeful god. Trell is beating him, and he really needs to step up his game before Trell wipes the field.

Those are my thoughts, having just read the book.

I agree that Sazed is being a little too conservative with his power usage though

 

Edited July 15, 2016 by asterion137

[Nepene]

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Keep in mind that Harmony has no idea how fast tech developed on Earth. He has no reference point upon which to judge Scadrial's technological developement.  Also Final Empire Scadrial actually had a lot of 18-19th century tech such as canned food and the capacity to build gigantic structures such as kredik shaw. They were similar in population to 19-20th century Europe and the only defining feature of the 18th century they were missing was gunpowder (which was suppressed by TLR).

They did have schizo tech, although making tall buildings and canned food isn't really that useful for them in terms of the new world. They lacked stuff like a printing press, parachutes, astrolabes, air guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_technology

Most things on the renaissance technology list. They were way, way behind on technology. I also pointed out why his reference points were poor.

He didn't know this of course, but I'm mostly pointing out his shardly intellect isn't helping. It's like, if he said that skin was totally resistant to gunfire. We know irl that's not true, so if Sazed says it he's clearly not thinking very carefully. All his divine shardly knowledge isn't helping him much.

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<=====lmao have an upvote

Thanks.

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I think he meant that people would complain about the amount of involvement he maintained no matter what it was. He is saying he believes he has found a point where people can live their lives freely while keeping mass destruction from scadrial.

We haven't actually seen what Harmony is doing with the Bands. However, I agree that the most logical thing to save the world as of BoM would be to replicate the bands hundreds of times and make each of his loyal kandra into a copy of The Lord Ruler. However, nothing the Set have done so far is drastic enough to provoke Sazed enforcing martial law. Harmony seems to like letting his people have free will.

It shouldn't really matter that people complain for a start, he shouldn't be thin skinned, and even if he was he was evading the point, if 90% of people complain atm and 10% complain post modifications there is a difference, even if in both situations people are complaining.

People are being spiked en masse, having their souls damaged, and being corrupted by an alien god, as he noted. People aren't living freely- the outer cities, and many within, are being corrupted by an outside god that wants destruction or control of the world. Suit and servants of said outside god have pushed debt slavery to the masses and vastly reduced people's freedom. The people Harmony personally focuses on like Wax are ok, but the general populace is being severely messed up. People like Jendel are reaching the point where death is preferable to living under the slavery of these alien gods, as the suiciding guy in debt slavery showed. Harmony has little real concern for people's free will, unless they are protagonists.

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I don't think imposing communism upon Scadrial would improve much.

There's a lot you can do of short of communism, like disrupting the debt slavery that alien god's servants imposed on the planet.

 

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I think his reasoning regarding that was perfectly fine. He actually said "I am sorry for what your pain". He is sorry for his bad judgement that led Paalm to betray him. He is not sorry for making Wax kill her. I wouldn't be sorry either in that situation.

He doesn't actually indicate at any point he's sorry for his bad judgement that led Paalm to betray him. He doesn't apologize for secretly picking a companion for Wax that Harmony managed to piss off badly enough that she chose to serve an alien god. He gives a non apology, where he apologizes for Wax's pain and apologizes for how right he was in everything he did. As far as I can see from that, he did nothing wrong by his judgement.

At this point if I was him, I would be looking at my employee loyalty schemes, and I would apologize to any clients who were hurt by my employee's actions.

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Suit was most likely bluffing regarding the "destroy a small city" crap. The ettmetal bomb the "faceless immortal" used barely blew up a single room.

 

They were fairly clear on this in the book.

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One of Irich’s early attempts at creating an explosive device from the metal that powered the airships. It had proven ineffective, barely more explosive than dynamite, when they needed something that could end cities.

He had heard the bomb should destroy cities, but the initial trials were only a little more effective than dynamite. Presumably better science can enhance their yield.

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I personally doubt Trell is Odium. Brandon has stated that Hoid is not particularly interested in the events of AoL era Scadrial (compared with the events of the stormlight archive) and I feel if Odium was Trell Hoid would be a lot more involved because he HATES Rayse.

Fair point. Autonomy then, Bavadin. It would fit with Trellium granting freedom from sight.

[Khyrindor]

Also keep in mind a WoB that's been around a while. It says that there are certain powers that are restricting Harmony's knowledge. Also, the Shard warps his personality, so we have a mix of human, and not human thinking. So you are correct in that he isn't thinking straight, but keep in mind that there is a reason for that.

[Yata]

But in the end Scadrial didn't progress much in this 341 years... A lot of changes we see in W&W's era are aviable from the Harmony's book (knowledge suppressed by TLR).

I may see because Harmony is disappointed by the Northern development....Much more if we compare it with the Southern's one

[king of nowhere]

regarding the "he should help the people more to make them happy" thing: hystorically, better life conditions for everyoone never translated into more happyness.

Consider how poor the people were in the middle age. Even the privileged lived in houses that lacked what we now assume to be the barest minimum of comforts. Consider how rich we are today in comparison. Then consider which of the two populations, the middle age or the contemporary one, was more resentful towards the government. Or was more likely to complain about how hard their life is.

See, human happyness does not depend on your objective level of whealt or fulfillment, but on expectation. If everyone is poor, you think it's normal to be poor, and you do not perceive yourself as such. Same is if everyone is rich. People becoome happier when things get better, but then they get used to the new situation and stop being happier for it; that's why the population was happy during the years of the economic boom, but it isn't happier now, despite us being still more rich than during those years. Therefore, no matter our technologial progress, no matter our power, no matter our rights, a lot of people will always perceive themselves as poor and downtrodden.

And therefore, harmony protecting humankind could not make humankind any happier; it would only make it more spoiled.

No, the only thing I'd do different in that regard if I were him would be to add something like "seek scientific progress" in my catechism.

[CaptainRyan]

I disagree quite a bit that Scadrial has progressed quickly when you consider the mitigating circumstances. Harmony literally provided a ton of knowledge right from the beginning (Words of Founding). The people of Scadrial had a large stockpile of supplies from the caverns, they were free from the fear of outside domination (they were, in their view, literally the only people left), they had a nearly effortless supply of food (magic basin) and they did not have to deal with any genetic diseases or disabilities.

So, besides building up infrastructure their only other concern was learning. Imagine if a huge pile of modern textbooks (properly translated) were dropped into Europe in the late 1400s. What would you expect Europe to look like in 1800? Do you think they would have airplanes? Computers? I think so. Harmony is disappointed in the Northern Scadrians because they have had every advantage and bonus and yet they have barely exerted themselves. Harmony was dumb only in the sense that he made life too easy in the North. Now he has to try and figure out how to fix the "paradise mentality" and get Scadrial moving forward. Winter Odium is coming.

[Lirins hand]

I think that's the point that Harmony is making - strife/stress feeds ingenuity and creativity.  comfort and ease do not feed as intense a need for improvements.  you'll still have people that want to invent stuff due to innate creativity but that number is lower than a lot of people trying to make their lives easier (mechanization) or keep people alive (medicine) or beat "them" (war industry).
Another thing, they all came out of an existing culture, things were only a blank slate on the planet's surface.  The people (Skaa and Noble) did not come out of the caves without preconceptions and habits, cultural ideas of who does what (and how/why).  You see that struggle with Marasi a bit but more with how quickly people fell back into their old patterns of life.  I don't think the Set did all the economic enslavement in a vacuum, people seem to have been eager to get themselves there.  
I go along with the view that making things too easy makes people intellectually lazy.  It doesn't stimulate creativity, it stifles it because....why? things are fine.
iirc, most of the latest improvements (not ones from the books of founding) are coming not from the basin but from the outer edges.  Far enough away to be out of the "comfort zone" but close enough to have access to materials.  Or they start outside and come closer to make their ideas work (both Ranette and the Tarcsells).

This sudden knowledge of another people, a "them" that is not just "Elendel people that ran away" (said with a dismissive sniff by the Basin folks), is a stressor, especially this idea of a whole new technology.  That will spur people to innovate and get the government involved as well, "just in case".  Whether via fear or curiousity, Southerners and Northerners meeting will spur advancement.

[Lirins hand]

2 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

So, besides building up infrastructure their only other concern was learning. Imagine if a huge pile of modern textbooks (properly translated) were dropped into Europe in the late 1400s. What would you expect Europe to look like in 1800? Do you think they would have airplanes? Computers? I think so. Harmony is disappointed in the Northern Scadrians because they have had every advantage and bonus and yet they have barely exerted themselves. Harmony was dumb only in the sense that he made life too easy in the North. Now he has to try and figure out how to fix the "paradise mentality" and get Scadrial moving forward. Winter Odium is coming.

I think the first and last highlights above are actually contradictory, not complimentary.  Paradise mentality leads to complacency, there is no pressing need to focus on improving things.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Lirins hand
Spelling/grammar fixes. :-(

[CaptainRyan]

1 minute ago, Lirins hand said:

I think the first and last highlights above are actually contradictory, not complimentary.  Paradise mentality leads to complacency, there is no pressing need to focus on improving things.

Sorry, I worded that poorly. What I was trying to say was that besides building infrastructure the only other thing Northern Scadrians could do was learn haha. They had pretty much everything else provided for them.

[Nepene]

On 15/07/2016 at 7:45 AM, Khyrindor said:

Also keep in mind a WoB that's been around a while. It says that there are certain powers that are restricting Harmony's knowledge. Also, the Shard warps his personality, so we have a mix of human, and not human thinking. So you are correct in that he isn't thinking straight, but keep in mind that there is a reason for that.

I have read that and considered that, but his actions seem to be more based on human bias than shard knowledge. Most of his failures are around his failure to understand the clear reality of Scadrial clearly presented in the books, not in his ability to research outside things. Also, he's not taking effective measures to counteract his limitations.

On 15/07/2016 at 7:51 AM, Yata said:

But in the end Scadrial didn't progress much in this 341 years... A lot of changes we see in W&W's era are aviable from the Harmony's book (knowledge suppressed by TLR).

I may see because Harmony is disappointed by the Northern development....Much more if we compare it with the Southern's one

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They were still a wonder to him. Even though he knew the Words of Founding had given hints regarding electricity, what men had achieved still seemed incredible. Mistborn 1

Sadly not, the book was clear on that- Harmony included vague hints as to future tech, like flight and electricity, but didn't actually give direct guides. It mostly included guides to past religions, another sign of Sazed's human biases coming into play- while other nations were teching up fast with divine aid, his nation was only slowly teching up. I'd agree with Wax's comments that their advances seem incredible, and see Sazed as rather dumb in his put downs based on others getting divine aid and therefore advancing faster in certain areas.

 

On 15/07/2016 at 9:49 PM, Lirins hand said:

I think the first and last highlights above are actually contradictory, not complimentary.  Paradise mentality leads to complacency, there is no pressing need to focus on improving things.

 

On 15/07/2016 at 9:46 PM, Lirins hand said:

I think that's the point that Harmony is making - strife/stress feeds ingenuity and creativity.  comfort and ease do not feed as intense a need for improvements.  you'll still have people that want to invent stuff due to innate creativity but that number is lower than a lot of people trying to make their lives easier (mechanization) or keep people alive (medicine) or beat "them" (war industry).

 

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“I’ll have the better of you,” the girl hissed, stepping up to him and poking him right in the gut, almost where he’d hidden his dueling canes. “I have plans. And unlike my father, I know that this world isn’t just about who has the best ideas. It’s about the people who can market those ideas. I’m going to find investors and change this city. And when you’re crying, destitute and discredited, you remember my father’s name and what you did.

She spun on her heel—long, straight blonde hair slapping him in the face—and stalked away." Mistborn 2

 

And the books are clear in this.

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“I’ll bet more people are murdered here, by percentage of the population, than out in the Roughs. There is so much more going on in the City, however, that people pay less attention to it. By contrast, when a man is murdered in a small town, it’s a very disruptive event—even if it’s the only murder that’s happened in years.

“And all of this isn’t even counting the fact that much of the wealth in the world is concentrated in a few places inside the city. Wealth draws men looking for opportunity. There are a whole host of reasons why the City is more dangerous than the Roughs. It’s just that we pretend that it isn’t.” Mistborn 1

 

Ranette makes many new inventions based on this.

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In his youth, he’d lived in the City—the world’s center of culture, science, and progress—for two decades, but he hadn’t found himself until he’d left it and wandered the dusty, infertile lands out beyond the mountains. Mistborn 1.

Sanderson totally knows that a rich prosperous city attracts inventions and lots of crime. This isn't some odd principle. The author and statisticians know better than a god about what is happening on Scadrial- technology is advancing very quickly and conflict is strong enough at a local level to attract a lot of inventions and science. We repeatedly through the novel see new inventions and science arising from the prosperity Harmony created which he's now complaining about. There is no complacency. Technology, as a matter of canon, is advancing faster because of the high level of conflict in the wealthy, prosperous city Harmony created, limited by how much wealth there is in the city to fund inventors. They are incredibly far from being in a paradise.

Although, some of the unfairness of society is killing off some of their scientists.

Quote

“Because you stole his designs, and with them his life. My father died clipless, destitute and depressed, because of men like you. You aren’t a scientist, Mister Hanlanaze, whatever you claim. You’re not an inventor. You’re a thief.”

An excess of conflict in this case lead to a very valuable inventor dying depressed. Perhaps if there was more wealth equality he could have got a steady job, made the radio, and pleased Harmony.

On 15/07/2016 at 0:08 PM, king of nowhere said:

regarding the "he should help the people more to make them happy" thing: hystorically, better life conditions for everyoone never translated into more happyness.

Consider how poor the people were in the middle age. Even the privileged lived in houses that lacked what we now assume to be the barest minimum of comforts. Consider how rich we are today in comparison. Then consider which of the two populations, the middle age or the contemporary one, was more resentful towards the government. Or was more likely to complain about how hard their life is.

While humans do have a certain amount of happiness which is based on the wealth of those around you, things like not having enough money for food or healthcare, having a horrible job, having no free time or free money to spend with friends does cause unhappiness. Being very poor, as the above inventor was, is a cause for unhappiness, in reality and in canon. Scientists are dying because of income inequality. An alien god cult is worsening income equality and Sazed is refusing to challenge it strongly while it prepared magic nukes to wipe out all life on the planet, or while it weakens Scadrian science.

[CaptainRyan]

@Nepene Just in case you missed the easter egg: the scientist/inventor that Wayne imitates is based on Thomas Edison and the girl who is upset at him, her father is based on Nikolai Tesla. Brandon was throwing in a bit of American culture there for those who get interested in that rivalry.

19 hours ago, Nepene said:

Sadly not, the book was clear on that- Harmony included vague hints as to future tech, like flight and electricity, but didn't actually give direct guides. It mostly included guides to past religions

The more advanced tech was hints but, iirc, there was plenty of direct tech in the Words of Founding. Why do you think it was mainly only religious information? I know that is what Sazed specialized in as a Keeper but there is no reason he would not include the tons of information his other Copperminds stored (every Keeper had access to all the information).

 

19 hours ago, Nepene said:

The author and statisticians know better than a god about what is happening on Scadrial

I think you might have this backwards. Harmony is, more most intents and purposes, completely omniscient and omnipotent when it comes to Scadrial. I would trust that Harmony knows more about Elendel, and their progress, than any statistician. Arguing that an all-knowing god is wrong about the pace of technological advancement seems a bit... silly, no?  

 

19 hours ago, Nepene said:

Although, some of the unfairness of society is killing off some of their scientists.

 

19 hours ago, Nepene said:

An alien god cult is worsening income equality

Lastly, I will refrain from debating the whole "income inequality" thing because I do not think the Bands of Mourning forums are the appropriate place for it. I would gladly discuss it via PM or in the General Forums if you would like to hash it out. I will simply say that I disagree with many of the modern interpretations of how to "fix" income inequality.

[asterion137]

iirc sazed dumped basically all his metalmind info into the Words of Founding

[CaptainRyan]

7 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

iirc sazed dumped basically all his metalmind info into the Words of Founding

Yup: http://coppermind.net/wiki/Sazed's_note

Also, there was a book that...

contains a short record of the events that led up to the world dying and being reborn, along with some musings I have made about the history, philosophy, and science of recent occurrences.

[king of nowhere]

47 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Yup: http://coppermind.net/wiki/Sazed's_note

Also, there was a book that...

contains a short record of the events that led up to the world dying and being reborn, along with some musings I have made about the history, philosophy, and science of recent occurrences.

yes, but sazed stated immediately thereafter that he also left the whole content of his metalminds, repeated verbatim. I'd quote you from the epilogue of hero of ages, except that I have the paper copy and don't want to go look for it and rewrite it all.

Given that the technology on scadrial pre-ashworld was late renaissance/early industrial, they didn't advance that much: they covered in three centuries what our world covered in one. On the other hand, if you consider how scarce was their population - less people means less scientists and inventors - that they had to rebuild everything from scratch, and that they didn't really knew their starting technology - sure, they had books explaining it, but they totally lacked all the practical know-how; there's a vast gulf between having an instruction manual to do something and being actually capable, much less good, at doing that something - then their progress went remarkably fast.

As for harmony taking more direct action against the set, well, pointing wax and wayne against them is pretty much taking direct action. For some reason, all shards  we've seen so far have been reluctant to use their powers directly, preferring to use human(oid) pawns.

[CaptainRyan]

3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, but sazed stated immediately thereafter that he also left the whole content of his metalminds, repeated verbatim. I'd quote you from the epilogue of hero of ages, except that I have the paper copy and don't want to go look for it and rewrite it all.

@king of nowhere: The first part of my comment, the "Yup: [hyperlink]" was in response to asterion137's comment. I probably should have quoted him to make that explicit. In other words, yes, Sazed dumped all of his metalmind's contents into a large pile of books. The link I provided says that plus it talks about the book Sazed left that postulated about the scientific reasonings behind the Catacendre.

5 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

On the other hand, if you consider [reasons] then their progress went remarkably fast.

I still disagree. They have had over 300 years which is, roughly, anywhere from 10-15 generations of people. While gen 1 and 2 (and maybe 3) had a lot of issues with housing etc., gen 4 - 10/15 had a very easy experience compared to anything pre-mid 20th century on Earth. The Basin being uber fertile, no threat of invasion, having instruction manuals to study from instead of having to derive every new invention from scratch, being free from genetic diseases, an abundance of resources, having Allomantic and (to a degree) Feruchemical assistance for building/learning/etc. Given the ideal conditions (food, resources, safety), the instruction manuals and magic it seems, to me, pretty clear that the Basin could have been a hot spot for technological growth but, instead, it stagnated. Harmony is, imo, absolutely right that the paradise he created caused a stunting of growth - especially when compared to the Southern Scadrians who needed to struggle to survive and, therefore, made big strides despite lacking many of the advantages the Northern Scadrians had.

[Yata]

i agree with @CaptainRyan the Basin with all the resources it had progress really slow.

I want to add my 2 cent, in the first generation. they have still some full feruchemist (and later ferring) They with Feruchemical zinc are capable of understanding better the concept left by Harmony and without thinking about other Keepers and the Copperminds they beared.

We see in HoA how with Coppermind's knowledge Sazed was capable of work as a decent engineer. I think other may do the same, simply like happened in the real world... Without a pushing force, many human didn't care to improve themself.

Probably this will change now, they are no more "the only ones" and have competitor for the resources and military power

Edited July 19, 2016 by Yata

[Nepene]

@CaptainRyan

Does it ever state that the words of founding include scientific knowledge? Yes, it included science of recent events, the magical science, but non magical science?

On Harmony being omniscient, Shard holders have limited personal attention. The Shard knows everything but the man has limited personal attention. He also doesn't necessarily understand much of the new knowledge in the shard. He gets the metaphysical stuff, but inventions and economics may just be something he has access to. Shards have high int, but low wisdom, in terms of dnd stats. In universe stuff has repeatedly contradicted him so I distrust his knowledge. So by my estimation, someone like Marasi who spends most of her life actually being in the city and trying to understand it might actually know more about economics than Sazed who doesn't really care and is distracted. This is why most shards we've seen make a ton of splinters, because they can't focus on everything all the time.

On income inequality- I mean, I could stop talking about it, but when you entirely ignore what I said and make statements about income inequality right after-

"They have had over 300 years which is, roughly, anywhere from 10-15 generations of people. While gen 1 and 2 (and maybe 3) had a lot of issues with housing etc., gen 4 - 10/15 had a very easy experience compared to anything pre-mid 20th century on Earth. "

Yeah, in canon, false, Elendel is a very rough and dangerous and conflict filled city in heavy part due to income inequality, and not at all paradise filled or conflict free.

@king of nowhere

If you look at the renaissance technology list I noted, they basically had none of that. They were more 12th or 13th century in a lot of areas. In particular, they lacked the printing press which meant knowledge dissemination was much, much slower. Any books or scientific manuals had to be written by hand.

[asterion137]

Quote

"These contain all of the knowledge–repeated verbatim–that was contained in my metalminds. Let the knowledge of the past not be forgotten. "

~Sazed

Sazed's metalminds were shown to include all kinds of knowledge, including engineering, farming methods, and astronomy

4 hours ago, Nepene said:

On income inequality- I mean, I could stop talking about it, but when you entirely ignore what I said and make statements about income inequality right after-

"They have had over 300 years which is, roughly, anywhere from 10-15 generations of people. While gen 1 and 2 (and maybe 3) had a lot of issues with housing etc., gen 4 - 10/15 had a very easy experience compared to anything pre-mid 20th century on Earth. "

Yeah, in canon, false, Elendel is a very rough and dangerous and conflict filled city in heavy part due to income inequality, and not at all paradise filled or conflict free.

well the main character is a glorified policeman, so of course we see crime in the city. However, there aren't really any natural problems like famines or earthquakes or floods. The only problems in the city are manmade, and even there, there are no massive problems like invasion. That inventor girl isn't part of the workforce and  doesn't have a paying job. Of course she has less money than someone who works 40 hours a week for pay.

 

4 hours ago, Nepene said:

due to income inequality, and not at all paradise filled or conflict free.

income inequality isn't a huge problem in Elendel. The laborers definitely have enough money to sustain themselves and their families. That worker in Shadows of Self was taking out loans to pay for commodities, not food or clothing or shelter.

Quote

Workers earn more now than they ever did, and they're hungry to pay for things once outside their reach. In the last six months we've pushed aggressively to lend to the common people of the city. They flock to us, and will soon make us very, very wealthy

~Edwarn Ladrian

 

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, Nepene said:

 

@king of nowhere

If you look at the renaissance technology list I noted, they basically had none of that. They were more 12th or 13th century in a lot of areas. In particular, they lacked the printing press which meant knowledge dissemination was much, much slower. Any books or scientific manuals had to be written by hand.

I'm talking about the technology that was present before the lord ruler. tlr suppressed a lot of technology because he deemed it dangerous for the society he wanted to create.

Which brings to the point I made that the originators only had that technology on paper, which is an entirely different thing than actually knowing that technology.

[CaptainRyan]

6 hours ago, Nepene said:

In universe stuff has repeatedly contradicted [Harmony] so I distrust his knowledge.

Would you mind citing 3-5 examples of where Harmony has been flat out wrong? (The reason I ask for 3-5 is because you said "repeatedly")

As for the rest of your post, I think @asterion137 handled it quite nicely. Thank you for that.

I will add one thing: no one is claiming Elendel Basin is a perfect utopia - what I am saying is that Elendel Basin is a relative paradise when compared to any analogous Earth scenario: an uber fertile basin rich in resources that is free from outside conflict that was given documents and information that takes them from mid-late Renaissance tech to the edge of flight and they have access to magical powers that would greatly increase their productivity in all areas. Elendel Basin has it good and they could have used that peace and prosperity to grow but they didn't and now they are underprepared and Harmony is, rightly, annoyed by that.

[Nepene]

12 hours ago, asterion137 said:

Sazed's metalminds were shown to include all kinds of knowledge, including engineering, farming methods, and astronomy

well the main character is a glorified policeman, so of course we see crime in the city. However, there aren't really any natural problems like famines or earthquakes or floods. The only problems in the city are manmade, and even there, there are no massive problems like invasion. That inventor girl isn't part of the workforce and  doesn't have a paying job. Of course she has less money than someone who works 40 hours a week for pay.

 

income inequality isn't a huge problem in Elendel. The laborers definitely have enough money to sustain themselves and their families. That worker in Shadows of Self was taking out loans to pay for commodities, not food or clothing or shelter.

 

So engineering- something that the lord ruler kept relatively advanced, and something that wasn't much of an issue since they had their perfect Elendel. Farming methods, which Sazed made redundant with the fertile area. Astronomy, which wasn't very useful since they weren't a naval power. Not really useful knowledge for them advancing.

The second book was about an alien god's servant causing floods and famine so I wouldn't assume life is universally dull for them. Complaints about slums, poorly patched clothing, crappy food are fairly common.

The closest thing we have to a source, hopefully made with some input/ approval by Brandon-

Quote

These folk spread out across the Basin, where they formed
cities of their own: Doriel, Wyllion, Rashekin,
and others. Some of these new cities tried
their hand at establishing new, independent
kingdoms, and others sought to subjugate the
will of others as the powerful had done in the
times before. Civil conflicts between Elendel
and these rebel fiefs never erupted into outright
war, thanks to the sage leadership of folk on
both sides,

 

Quote

Even so, social injustice continues to plague the cities. Crime, hunger
and other social ills are still a way of life for many, particularly those in the
slums and lower-class neighborhoods. The poor live from paycheck to paycheck, made worse by predatory lending and loansharking by those of means.
Guilds and unions have facilitated the rise of a thriving working class, but they
too suffer from greed and corruption, and sometimes prey upon the very workers they’re supposed to be helping. The rise of industrialization, assembly line
workers, and mass manufactured products has undermined skilled artisans and
lead to exploitation of workers by factory bosses.

From the alloy of law mistborn rpg of semi canonness.

That seems more likely to me than your theories that they definitely have enough money to sustain themselves and that there were no wars. Why wouldn't cities have had wars and conflicts given that such a war is a major theme of book 3? We repeatedly see hunger, poverty, and slums in the books, why wouldn't they exist?  Clearly people are having issues paying for stuff on their basic wages.
 

@CaptainRyan The pace of technological development, the source of flying tech, the source of the radio tech, whether he's made it too easy, the theoretical lack of exploration, people having everything they want, the effects of poverty on technological development and the general lack of everyting people want, him not being sorry for his failure to do much to counter alien gods and his degree of fault for that. Those are the immediate ones that come to mind.

Again, no evidence for common renaissance tech other than buildings and economics, no evidence for a lack of conflict (and it's a major theme of book 3 mistborn and mentioned in the rpg so seems improbable, plus they have soldiers) and very little evidence for extensive tech dumping by Sazed.

Edit. On the semi canonness of the rpg.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=618

Quote

The Mistborn RPG? I sat down in several brainstorming sessions with them and gave them all of my notes from the world and now they have sent me what they have come up with and it's actually half rules, half world book, is the idea. Now I'm going to go through and revise it to make sure there's nothing wrong with it. But, you know, I did a lot of brainstorming with them, but they're the game designers so I let them kind of design the game as they wanted to.

So there's nothing 'wrong' with the rpg, it's based on his notes and brainstorming, but someone else wrote it.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Nepene

[CaptainRyan]

14 minutes ago, Nepene said:

The second book was about an alien god's servant causing floods and famine so I wouldn't assume life is universally dull for them.

No one said life was universally dull.

14 minutes ago, Nepene said:

Complaints about slums, poorly patched clothing, crappy food are fairly common.

Everyone is agreeing that life is not perfect in the Basin.
 

16 minutes ago, Nepene said:

[MAG desc] seems more likely to me than your theories that they definitely have enough money to sustain themselves and that there were no wars.

14 minutes ago, Nepene said:

Civil conflicts between Elendel and these rebel fiefs never erupted into outright war [...]

 The very MAG intro you quoted says there has been no war and I agree with the MAG here even if MAG is not canon. In this case the MAG is merely agreeing with other in-universe info we have been given. 

If there has not been war in the Basin then think about that for a second. When in the history of humans on Earth has there been a period of over 300 years (10-15 generations) when there has not been war? I will answer my own question: never. The Basin is a massive anomaly in human history. It is a special case. It is unique. There is something special about it.

 

19 minutes ago, Nepene said:

We repeatedly see hunger, poverty, and slums in the books, why wouldn't they exist?  Clearly people are having issues paying for stuff on their basic wages.

Clearly, Elendel is not perfect. We are all saying that. The point I am trying to make is that the Elendel Basin, with all of its flaws, is orders of magnitude more desirable then any place/period in pre-mid 20th century Earth. The Basin, despite having crime, income inequality, and other issues is clearly in a much better position in terms of safety, resources, climate, etc. then anywhere comparable on Earth or Scadrial. They, as a whole, have it relatively easy. This easiness is what causes them to be relatively lazy in pursuit of science, in exploration etc. This is what Harmony is annoyed about.

 

Let's examine each of your examples for Harmony being completely contradicted by in-universe facts and see how they hold up.

15 hours ago, Nepene said:

In universe stuff has repeatedly contradicted [Harmony]

 

24 minutes ago, Nepene said:

The pace of technological development, the source of flying tech, the source of the radio tech, whether he's made it too easy, the theoretical lack of exploration, people having everything they want, the effects of poverty on technological development and the general lack of everyting people want, him not being sorry for his failure to do much to counter alien gods and his degree of fault for that.

1: Pace of technological development
If we are having this debate then there is no "in-universe" definitive example to prove Harmony wrong.

2: Source of flying tech
I'm not sure what this means. How can Harmony be wrong about the source of flying tech?

3: Source of radio tech
Same as 2

4: Whether he's made it too easy
Again, if we are having this debate, there is no "in-universe" definitive example to prove Harmony wrong. Harmony, with the ability to see the future in a limited fashion, and as someone who has watched two separate groups (Northern/Southern Scadrians) improve at different rates, seems like he would be pretty accurate in this.

5: theoretical lack of exploration
Why do you call it theoretical? It is fairly straight forward in the books that the Elendel Basin humans have barely explored the beginnings of the Roughs much less their continent much less discovered the Southern Scadrians' continent or any other continent that might exist. Compare the Northern Scadrians exploration to Europeans who had much lower tech - Vikings found North America pretty early and Christopher Columbus made it popular in the late 1400s for goodness sake. What have the Northern Scadrians done? Not much. Why? Because the Basin provides literally everything they (as a population) need and they are not in a race against another country; i.e. Harmony made it too easy for them (see 4).

6: people having everything they want
Neither Harmony nor anyone in this thread has said that every single person in the Elendel Basin has everything they need. Harmony, and I, were speaking in general terms: the Elendel Basin provides more than enough to sustain and grow the population and it is sheltered from outside attack. There is no need to explore or even overly exert yourself (in general and speaking of the population as a whole).

7: effects of poverty on technological development and the general lack of everything people want
This is another one that I struggle to understand how you think Harmony is obviously, unarguably wrong. Harmony made no claims about the "effects of poverty on technological development" and for the second part of that sentence please refer to number 6.

8: him not being sorry for his failure to do much to counter alien gods and his degree of fault for that
Harmony... failed? IIRC, Scadrial still exists and the "red haze" that Wax sees is not destroying the planet. As for Lessie and Wax, I think Brandon showed us pretty clearly that Harmony was not at fault. Furthermore, Harmony is using his allies (Kandra, Wax & Co., etc.) to investigate and defeat the plans of the "alien god". Harmony is new-ish to the Shard game and is probably easily outmaneuvered by other Shards (Lessie hiding with an unknown metal's spike for example). Would you mind expanding on what exactly you mean by Harmony's failure to counter the alien god and his degree of fault?

Your initial statement was: "In universe stuff has repeatedly contradicted [Harmony]" and I feel like none of the examples you provided show a single, solid example of Harmony being "contradicted" by "in-universe stuff". As far as I am concerned, Harmony's words are fairly reliable and without strong evidence to the contrary, should be accepted at face value. That does not mean Harmony is infallible but it does mean that his words are trustworthy. 

Finally, the title of this thread is "Harmony is really dumb" which, in all honesty, is an inflammatory title just begging to be countered. I doubt anyone, including you, truly thinks Harmony, holder of two Shards and former Terrisman Sazed, is actually "dumb". I do want to close by saying I completely respect your opinion to think Harmony is wrong about something or that Harmony is "dumb". If anything in this post comes off as rude or harsh then please let me apologize now. I have re-read this post multiple times before hitting "Submit Reply" and tried to remove/edit anything that might be seen as insulting or rude.

[Nepene]

On the dullness or lack thereof-

Quote

Some of these new cities tried
their hand at establishing new, independent
kingdoms, and others sought to subjugate the
will of others as the powerful had done in the
times before.

So yes, some sort to subjugate the will of others. And it's noted that war between Elendel and other cities was only prevented with careful diplomacy, not that other cities didn't war. In both the cases of subjugation and an ongoing tense situation there would be conflict that would encourage the nations to spend lots of money on military science. While these books are only guided by Brandon in the third mistborn book the tense warlike situation happened with no actual war but espionage and stealing of technology. What actual evidence do you have that it's free from outside conflict? The not perfect situation could easily include actual war between nations, as almost happened in book 3, or as was hinted at in the rpg.

Quote

Clearly, Elendel is not perfect. We are all saying that.

The person was saying that people in general could always pay for maintenance of family on wages, I was challenging that- there are several situations mentioned in the novels and the rpg that make that an uncertain statement.

Quote

If we are having this debate then there is no "in-universe" definitive example to prove Harmony wrong.

I previously in the thread noted my argument on this- essentially, that Harmony was wrong to think they should have developed tech this fast, based on in novel statements, real world stuff, and the fact that the other nation that got flying tech only did so because a sliver gave them tech to help out. Broadly speaking, Harmony was complaining about him being too helpful, when in fact another nation was able to fly only because an ex god was too helpful.

Quote

Why do you call it theoretical? It is fairly straight forward in the books that the Elendel Basin humans have barely explored the beginnings of the Roughs much less their continent much less discovered the Southern Scadrians' continent or any other continent that might exist.

They have lots of settlements in the roughs, limited by their population, and they have discovered the southern continents and their unknown metal by the first novel. In terms of settling the roughs more, if they had more population then it would be settled more. Harmony is dumb to think that his fertile basin inhibited exploration.

Quote

Neither Harmony nor anyone in this thread has said that every single person in the Elendel Basin has everything they need. Harmony, and I, were speaking in general terms: the Elendel Basin provides more than enough to sustain and grow the population and it is sheltered from outside attack. There is no need to explore or even overly exert yourself (in general and speaking of the population as a whole).

Quote

“And all of this isn’t even counting the fact that much of the wealth in the world is concentrated in a few places inside the city. Wealth draws men looking for opportunity. There are a whole host of reasons why the City is more dangerous than the Roughs. It’s just that we pretend that it isn’t.” Mistborn 1

Outside attack is clearly an issue as book 3 proves, and as stated here, the wealth and affluence of Elendel encourages danger and competition and exertion. Elendel is a cut throat city of extremes where some starve and barely survive in slums, with heavily patched clothing that's barely held together, and some become incredibly rich off opportunities. The extremely long work hours and need to exert yourself to not starve is mentioned in book 2.

Quote

“They expect us to work long hours every day, but then when it ain’t convenient for them, they just cut us loose and don’t care none if we starve.” Mistborn 2

So, so long as you don't mind starving to death, no, there's no need to exert yourself.

Quote

Harmony... failed? IIRC, Scadrial still exists and the "red haze" that Wax sees is not destroying the planet. As for Lessie and Wax, I think Brandon showed us pretty clearly that Harmony was not at fault.

Harmony sent one of his servants to help out Wax, and said servant ended up brutally murdering lots of people, getting spiked with alien metal spike, and acting psychotic enough that Wax had to kill her. People are responsible for the action of their servants. He used prophesy powers to find a hugely unpleasant solution to fix his mistakes, yes, but he also seriously dropped the ball with her. Also, he's allowing the servants of Trell far too much freedom.

Quote

Finally, the title of this thread is "Harmony is really dumb" which, in all honesty, is an inflammatory title just begging to be countered. I doubt anyone, including you, truly thinks Harmony, holder of two Shards and former Terrisman Sazed, is actually "dumb".

It's an important thing to recognize in oneself. This has always been an issue of Sazed's. Before, he had huge amounts of knowledge which he could only access if he tapped his copperminds. He knew a lot, but didn't really have any good idea of how to apply it.

Quote

Sazed had led a scavenging mission up to the plantation's abandoned manor. The leavings had been meager. He'd suggested that the village elders relocate their people to the manor itself for the winter, but he doubted they would do so. They had visited the manor with apprehension, and many hadn't been willing to leave Sazed's side. The place reminded them of lords—and lords reminded them of pain.
  His students continued to scribble. He had spent quite a bit of effort explaining to the elders why writing was so important. Finally, they had chosen him some students— partially, Sazed was sure, just to appease him. He shook his head slowly as he watched them write. There was no passion in their learning. They came because they were ordered. and because "Master Terrisman" willed it, not because of any real desire for education.
  During the days before the Collapse. Sazed had often nugined what the world would be like once the Lord Ruler ws gone. He had pictured the Keepers emerging, bringing forgotten knowledge and truths to an excited, thankful populace. He'd imagined teaching before a warm hearth at night, telling stories to an eager audience. He'd never paused to consider a village, stripped of its working men. •hose people were too exhausted at night to bother with tales from the past. He'd never imagined a people who seemed more annoyed by his presence than thankful.

He's knowledge smart, but he's not street smart, or charismatic. That is an issue he has as a shard as well. He knows a lot, but he doesn't have any good ability to synthesize it or apply it well. High int, low charisma, low wisdom. He's a nice person and very keen to try to see things from people's viewpoints after the fact but he's not the sort of person you really want in a leadership position.

He probably hasn't actually thought much about what life is like as an average Elendel worker.

Your post is reasonable and non rude.

[CaptainRyan]

Well @Nepene it seems we will simply agree to disagree. You make some compelling points but, alas, I remain unconvinced haha. Thanks for the discussion.

Though, as a final bit, I would like to disagree with one last item because, well, I am me and this is what I do sometimes.  

12 hours ago, Nepene said:

He's knowledge smart, but he's not street smart, or charismatic. That is an issue he has as a shard as well. He knows a lot, but he doesn't have any good ability to synthesize it or apply it well. High int, low charisma, low wisdom. He's a nice person and very keen to try to see things from people's viewpoints after the fact but he's not the sort of person you really want in a leadership position.

This is from the Mistborn 3 annotations:

Quote

This is the confident Sazed, the person who—without raising his voice, without seeming to make demands—can control a group and get the information he desires. He’s always claimed that he’s no leader, but he’s actually a fantastic one when he puts his mind to it. His calm sense of purpose puts people at ease, and makes them do as he requests.
He’s not a king—he’s right on that count. He is, however, a man to be respected and obeyed.

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by CaptainRyan