A reference to lions?

[antgrgmn]

"A fanciful picture, with animals from mythology. He recognised a few from children's stories, like the enormous, minklike creature with the mane of hair that burst out  around and behind its head. What was it called again?"

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but it sounds like it was out there purposefully put there. This was in chapter 89.

[Yata]

Well they may have a mythology about foreign animals. After all probably Roshar's human come to Roshar from another place and their ancestor may knowed Lion or other "standard" animals.

[maxal]

9 hours ago, antgrgmn said:

"A fanciful picture, with animals from mythology. He recognised a few from children's stories, like the enormous, minklike creature with the mane of hair that burst out  around and behind its head. What was it called again?"

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but it sounds like it was out there purposefully put there. This was in chapter 89.

I remember the extract quite well, it happens right before Adolin encounters Sadeas (and murders him). Right there, he stops his internal musings to glance at a tapestry. I agree it was deliberate. What purpose might there be for Adolin to look at a tapestry and remember his childhood memories minutes before he changes his life forever?

I have always thought this little bout raised many questions... 

1) There are no lions in Alethkar. In fact, there probably aren't any lion except in secluded parts of Roshar, if there are lions at all, so where does such stories come from? Is it common for little Alethi to be read bedtime stories about fantastic creatures? It seems rather strange coming from warring Alethkar as I would think children would preferably be told about warfare and great battles, not fancy lions prancing all around. It seems even less probable such stories would be read to little boys: boys do not read, what purpose would reading books, even with pictures, serve when it comes to young boys? In our world, we read stories to our children such as to nurture an interest into reading, to help fuel their imagination, but in our world, reading is a praised ability. I thus see no rational for young boys to be read wild stories in Alethkar...

I have thus wondered... Have we just been given a clue pertaining Shshshsh and the Iriali culture? Are there lions in tropical sounding Iri? Did the stories perhaps come from her? How different was Adolin and Renarin's upbringing considering their mother was a foreigner? In the case of Adolin, we do know she made a lasting impression on him.

2) Adolin is trying to remember something he forgot. Alright. I had to put it there. Sorry. 

3) The tapestry as presumably hung there for centuries and it appears intact... Am I the only one who wondered about that? How long can tapestries be maintained inside a Tower?

4) Who built the Tower? If the lions aren't native from Roshar, than who brought forward the stories of such animals?

Brandon never writes anything for nothing... If his goal was simply to show us a tapestry made of weird non-native animals he knows us, the readers, would recognize as lions, then why didn't he use Shallan, the biologist artist, to do it? Choices were made here. The author chose to show us this tapestry, for a reason, and he chose to have Adolin be the one who looks at it. I am thus concluding it has two purposes: one is world-building and one is character building. 

Also didn't anyone else saw the irony of it all? Lions are the emblematic animal of House Lannister, famed for their blond locks as well as their wealth and their murderous ways. Adolin is our abnormally blond Alethi who happens to glimpse upon a lion right before killing a man with his hand knife.... Now of course, this is purely coincidence, but I have to say, those thoughts did pop into my mind.

Edited July 1, 2016 by maxal

[Quiver]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Also didn't anyone else saw the irony of it all? Lions are the emblematic animal of House Lannister, famed for their blond locks as well as their wealth and their murderous ways. Adolin is our abnormally blond Alethi who happens to glimpse upon a lion right before killing a man with his hand knife.... Now of course, this is purely coincidence, but I have to say, those thoughts did pop into my mind.

The intersection of the Cosmere to A Song of Ice and Fire, and the ways in which Brandon's might be reacting and responding to it, is something I've been curious about for a while.

Just sayin'.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Quiver

[maxal]

Just now, Quiver said:

The intersection of the Cosmere to A Song of Ice and Free, and the ways in which Brandon's might be reacting and responding to it, is something I've been curious about for a while.

Just sayin'.

We might be onto something... Brandon loves playing with foreshadowing and our expectations.

[Argel]

You know, we have seen how Shallan's portraits can inspire people to be better, and as pointed out it was in unusually good condition. Could the tapestry have magically altered Adolin such that he was more likely to kill Sadeas? Like more likely to act on anger, or more likely to eliminate a threat given the current state of the world (e.g. petty politicians will hamper relief efforts, make it harder to prepare for the upcoming battles, etc. )? He does seem surprised at what he just did afterwards. It could just be a natural response, but if he was influenced to do it....

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Argel said:

You know, we have seen how Shallan's portraits can inspire people to be better, and as pointed out it was in unusually good condition. Could the tapestry have magically altered Adolin such that he was more likely to kill Sadeas? Like more likely to act on anger, or more likely to eliminate a threat given the current state of the world (e.g. petty politicians will hamper relief efforts, make it harder to prepare for the upcoming battles, etc. )? He does seem surprised at what he just did afterwards. It could just be a natural response, but if he was influenced to do it....

I doubt Shallan's portraits are objects of power... I am of the opinion it isn't the drawings per say which changes the people, but the strength of the lie she creates which draws people in. In other words, she is the living embodiment of "fake it until you make it". Her lies are so enthralling, people end up believing in them and act as if they were true, thus making them become the truth. 

I thus do not think the tapestry holds any power nor do I think it has anything to do with Adolin killing Sadeas. My thoughts are Adolin experienced a "mind snap" (which are the words Brandon used to describe it), a moment where his impulsive survival response kicked in, completely short-cutting his cognitive response, thus making him take actions he would have never done had his mind been intact. A bit like the "fight or flight" response which gets triggered into animals (and human beings) when the body identifies a too strong threat. While the "part of him which wasn't completely enraged" was able to assess his actions, it was completely uncorrelated to the rest of his being and devoid of the emotions he should have been feeling.

He was surprised afterwards because he didn't consciously agreed to kill Sadeas, but his stress-level got so high his brain identified Sadeas as as threatening agent which needed to be dealt with. Now. He didn't think because he couldn't think.

A lot of people have experienced mind snapping and it basically goes down as Adolin: they completely lose it and do something drastic, outward and uncontrollable. The one thing they all have in common is a strong sensitivity to stress, anxiety and emotions in general. There are many stories of people trying to remain strong, capable, refusing to admit any weaknesses thus making them cope and cope and cope up until they literally drop down. It makes me seriously worried about Adolin's mental state going into book 3 as, if I am right, he probably isn't done "mental snapping". 

So no I do not think the lion tapestry carries any magic nor do I think Adolin's actions were influenced by anything. I think his mind broke down under the pressure and the stress he has been under making him commit a crime he was not totally conscious he was doing.

As for the tapestry, I do think it is relevant, in some bizarre way. It would have make more sense, narrative wise, to have Shallan witness and comment on it. The fact it is Adolin who notes it might mean something, mostly about his character or not... We had Renarin, in the past, remember bits of knowledge he has heard, but Adolin remembering the lions is not about knowledge, it is about something else. Stories. Stories is great animals doing stuff. Why would pragmatic Adolin of all people remember childhood stories about fantastical animals still remains a mystery.

[Argel]

On 7/1/2016 at 4:20 PM, maxal said:

So no I do not think the lion tapestry carries any magic

So the tapestry is in great condition because...?

[Pathfinder]

26 minutes ago, Argel said:

So the tapestry is in great condition because...?

So just because it is preserved it holds the magical power you posit? Even if I could not give a counter reason why it is preserved, does not prove your theory correct. There are countless other explanations for its condition ranging from mundane to magical without resulting in the theory you put forth. Also Shallan tailors her art that "transforms" her targets specifically for each individual. Unless one of the lightweavers abilities is trap laden art, I feel what you are suggesting is a stretch. 

 

edit: just to clarify for everyone, because I did check the quote myself, but it is not a tapestry, and it is not perfectly preserved. please see below:

Words of Radiance page 1066

"Adolin watched for a moment as the highprince himself raised a lantern, inspecting a faded painting on the wall. A fanciful picture, with animals from mythology. "

Edited July 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[CaptainRyan]

23 minutes ago, Argel said:

So the tapestry is in great condition because...?

Please read the following in the soothing voice of either Bob Ross or Morgan Freeman:

Because Uruthiru was sealed in crem and this created a preserved environment? Because it was made with soulcast materials that resist decay? Because a Knight Radiant Surge we know nothing of yet was used to cast "Preserve" on the art in Uruthiru?

It is possible there is some latent magic preserving the tapestry but I think it is beyond far fetched to assume that the preservation of a tapestry is evidence that a Lightweaver created a tapestry that causes people to murder the nearest person.

 

[Rasarr]

11 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

It is possible there is some latent magic preserving the tapestry but I think it is beyond far fetched to assume that the preservation of a tapestry is evidence that a Lightweaver created a tapestry that causes people to murder the nearest person.

You know, this made me think... why would they create such a thing anyway? And if they did (for use on diplomatic meetings they want to go wrong?), why put it in a corridor, and not in some sort of vault or safe? Putting something like this in publicly-available place just begs for a Shardblade murder plague to start.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Rasarr