Power level of Honourblades? SPOILERS

[rjl]

Vegeta, what does the scouter say about the Honourblade?

 

So, I've seen a WOB saying that the honour blade in Szeths hands was weakened because he thought it couldn't do certain things that it really could have done.

But even with such a restriction why did Kaladin seem so much more powerful than Szeth?

"These were weapons of power beyond even shard blades"

So does anyone have any ideas, thoughts or infirmation on what an Honourblade can do that can make it surpass a living shard blade?

The only inkling I have is to compare it to nightblood; just as nightblood feeds off of investiture when drawn the honour blades seem to feed on stormlight; could it unleash crazy nightblood level power if used right? Is that a link we're meant to make?

 

Thoughts?

 

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

You don't have any oaths or moral restrictions with an honorblade. Syl would never have given Kaladin permission to go around slaughtering innocents with powers they couldn't defend against. Szeth had no trouble doing that. 

We really don't know that much else about them yet. Remember, there were thousands of years between that quote and when we see Szeth use the honorblade. Knowledge of their use would have been lost, especially without the Heralds instructing how to properly use them. 

[asterion137 he/him]

19 minutes ago, rjl said:

Vegeta, what does the scouter say about the Honourblade?

 

So, I've seen a WOB saying that the honour blade in Szeths hands was weakened because he thought it couldn't do certain things that it really could have done.

But even with such a restriction why did Kaladin seem so much more powerful than Szeth?

"These were weapons of power beyond even shard blades"

So does anyone have any ideas, thoughts or infirmation on what an Honourblade can do that can make it surpass a living shard blade?

The only inkling I have is to compare it to nightblood; just as nightblood feeds off of investiture when drawn the honour blades seem to feed on stormlight; could it unleash crazy nightblood level power if used right? Is that a link we're meant to make?

 

Thoughts?

 

i think the honorblades could possibly be used to produce stormlight where none exists by drawing it from highstorms anywhere (balancing out the additional stormlight needed for honorblade lashings). They can probably also generate some form of shardplate too. I assume they can also shrug off shardblade wounds and/or steal stormlight from other people since just one of them threatened to destroy every surgebinder and he probably had the power to follow through with it.

[Blackhoof]

Its likely that you need to be a Herald to properly unlock the power of the Honorblades, given that they were made specifically for them.

[Yata he/him]

Maybe they may have some other ability... But in the end I think they may be only Heavy Invested Shardblade with simply more raw power.

We saw as Szeth made Shardplate breaks in less hit then any other ShardBlade using the Honorblade. He manage also to "break" a living Shardblade (but Syl reforme just some second later) something quite unseen on Roshar.

They may be part of the Oathpact but I don't think this give them extra powers

[rjl]

The lack of a spren limiting you doesn't seem like extra power to me; as generally the spren will only stop you from doing stupid things anyway.

So options:

i. They have special powers that only a herald can use

ii. They can do loads we haven't seen as Szeth didn't have a clue how to use it

iii. They just do what we've seen but do it more powerfully than a radiant shard (but for Szeth it was less powerful)

iv. Something else?

Do we have anymore relevant info any uncited WoBs perhaps?

 

 

[Oversleep]

The thing is that Honorblades grant Surgebinding instantly to whoever wields it, while becoming a Surgebinder requires being broken and being certain type of person with correct beliefs and way of life (which attracts spren and is later extended as Oaths).

But I still suspect there is something more to Honorblades.

[The Honor Spren she/her]

I think that the reason Kaladin seemed so much more powerful than Szeth, was because:

1. Szeth wanted to die, and wasn't pushing himself to the extent of his ability
2. Kaladin had just spoken an Ideal, so he was much more powerful than normal.

[Lopens_Cousin]

4 hours ago, Oversleep said:

The thing is that Honorblades grant Surgebinding instantly to whoever wields it, while becoming a Surgebinder requires being broken and being certain type of person with correct beliefs and way of life (which attracts spren and is later extended as Oaths).

But I still suspect there is something more to Honorblades.

This made me think of something that had bothered me in WoR. Didn't Dalinar bond Taln's honourblade? Wasn't that the blade he used to trap Amaram. If so, shouldn't he have been able to surgebind once he held/bonded it? I was confused because 1) Dalinar didn't invest stormlight instinctively when in danger and 2) the Storm Father called it an abomination (or something like that) and commanded Dalinar to release it. Was the Storm Father's disdain for the blade because it was a bond-broken spren, or because, like Syl, he doesn't like that it can be used without a bond?

Can someone clear this up for me?

 

[Windrunner he/him]

27 minutes ago, lopens_cousin said:

This made me think of something that had bothered me in WoR. Didn't Dalinar bond Taln's honourblade? Wasn't that the blade he used to trap Amaram. If so, shouldn't he have been able to surgebind once he held/bonded it? I was confused because 1) Dalinar didn't invest stormlight instinctively when in danger and 2) the Storm Father called it an abomination (or something like that) and commanded Dalinar to release it. Was the Storm Father's disdain for the blade because it was a bond-broken spren, or because, like Syl, he doesn't like that it can be used without a bond?

Can someone clear this up for me?

 

I'd love to! Let's look back at the description of Taln's Blade on the night of his arrival in Kholinar.

Quote

To his side, he carried a massive Shardblade, point down, sticking about a finger’s width into the stone, his hand on the hilt. The Blade reflected torchlight; it was long, narrow, and straight, shaped like an enormous spike.

So, there's that description. Now, lets look at the Blade that Dalinar summons when threatening Amaram, said to be the same Blade that Taln carried.

Quote

White mist coalesced in Dalinar’s fingers, and a Shardblade appeared, tip to Amaram’s throat. Wider than most, it was almost cleaverlike in appearance.

These two descriptions are not the same. A cleaver doesn't look like a spike, and it does not make sense for a Blade to be narrow and wider than most simultaneously. These are two different Blades. Further evidence is seen here, when Dalinar's Blade screams. 

Quote

“It will be what it must,” Dalinar said, summoning his Shardblade. As soon as it appeared, screams sounded in his head. He dropped the weapon as if it were an eel that had snapped at him. The screams vanished immediately.

Honorblades were never spren that were betrayed, so they do not scream. When Kaladin hold's Jezrien's Honorblade, he hears nothing. Someone swapped the Blade that Taln was carrying, believed by most to be his Honorblade, for a different Shardblade of unknown origins. Brandon won't say as much, but it's been heavily implied.

Quote

Q:  At the very end of WoR, Dalinar touches a Shardblade and it screams at him.  Should that particular Blade have been safe?
A:  No, it should not have.  It's a clue that something has happened.  There are other clues that something is wrong with what the story you've been told is.

The only other thing we know for sure is that Hoid is not the one who swapped the Blades.

Quote

Q:  Did Hoid switch out the blades?
A:  Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.

 

Back to what we were discussing, something is definitely different about the Honorblades. Check out the description of the Honorblades (granted, Jezrien's is not there yet, but I believe it's a safe assumption that it also fits this description.)

Quote

Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground. Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns.

Now, let's look at Szeth's Blade in the modern day.

Quote

His Shardblade was long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others.

No mention of artistry or glyphs? What has changed? Jezrien's Blade is not as it once was. I don't know why this is, perhaps it is simply that it is not carried by its true owner. But whatever the reason, I suspect this change in appearance has something to do with the fact that Jezrien's Blade doesn't seem that powerful beyond granting Surgebinding.

[Edgedancer he/him]

48 minutes ago, lopens_cousin said:

This made me think of something that had bothered me in WoR. Didn't Dalinar bond Taln's honourblade? Wasn't that the blade he used to trap Amaram. If so, shouldn't he have been able to surgebind once he held/bonded it? I was confused because 1) Dalinar didn't invest stormlight instinctively when in danger and 2) the Storm Father called it an abomination (or something like that) and commanded Dalinar to release it. Was the Storm Father's disdain for the blade because it was a bond-broken spren, or because, like Syl, he doesn't like that it can be used without a bond?

Can someone clear this up for me?

 

The Honorblade was switched off screen, if you read the descriptions for it carefully.

 

Edit: And then there was a much more elaborate post while i was writing this.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Edgedancer

[CabbageHead he/him]

7 minutes ago, Windrunner said:

No mention of artistry or glyphs? What has changed? Jezrien's Blade is not as it once was. I don't know why this is, perhaps it is simply that it is not carried by its true owner. But whatever the reason, I suspect this change in appearance has something to do with the fact that Jezrien's Blade doesn't seem that powerful beyond granting Surgebinding.

I'm not sure omitting to mention any artistry implies there was none, Szeth was merely looking at the differences between this blade and others. As for those differences, there could be good reasons for them. First, Jezrien was the Windrunner type Herald, and aerial combat would probably be easier with a lighter blade; it is mentioned to be double-edged, which again would more useful in twisting maneuvers, compared to a single edge on a sword used in long, hard blows. Secondly, if you want to compare with more modern armies, eg. WWII troops, the grunts would all be rifle men, whereas officers carried sidearms. The weapons are still dangerous, but the officer's primary function is organising and leading his troops, not directly engaging in battle himself. Jezrien was known as king of the Heralds, their leader and presumably one who engaged more in strategy & tactics and less in the fighting than some others.

[Argel he/him]

We also know that the Honorblades require a lot more Stormlight to work (or at least it does for Szeth's), and that tapping itnot hat much Stormlight could be dangerous (likely in the "continued use over time" sense).

There also seems to be a theme that the Nahal Bonded ones glow brighter that we see throught the series, including in the scene of the Recreance. Maybe the Connection or the bond allows them to harness Stormlight much more efficiently. Even more likely for e.g. Syl and Kal.

[Windrunner he/him]

The point I'm making is that in all the times that Szeth draws his Blade, there is never a mention of these glyphs or it being a work of art. It is always described as a small, silvery, double-edged Blade. (If anyone can find an instance where they are mentioned, please feel free to correct me.) The glyphs on Sunraiser, Elhokar's Blade, get mentioned regularly, as do the patterns on Adolin and Dalinar's Blades. I find it odd that there is literally never a mention that Szeth's Blade happens to be a masterwork of art.

Also, another thing I think you should keep in mind is that the Radiants weren't always there. There may have been some disorganized Surgebinders (it's not really clear right now) in the fighting, but the Heralds for the most part were working with men and women who were wielding bronze spears and leather armor against creatures that could literally throw lightning at them. The Heralds need some edge here, and I believe it to be that they had extraordinary abilities. Ishar literally threatened all of the Surgebinders with destruction if they did not organize themselves into orders of Radiants. There is no way one Surgebinder could accomplish that on his own.

Quote

    But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.

This all points to Heralds having powers greater than other Surgebinders.

[Oversleep]

It does not necessarily point to Heralds having greater powers than other Surgebinders; they were worshipped like deities and they were, in fact, emissaries of a god. Their authority alone could do such things.

As for the description of Jezrien's Honourblade, when Kaladin inspects it after he defeats Szeth, he mentions it having no ornaments or decorations and comments it being strange.

[Yata he/him]

About Ishar and his threat to the "wild surgebinder" may be something not relate to some "unique herald power" but some effect of his Honorblade's Surges (and possible his perk)

[Windrunner he/him]

Sure, they have authority, but destroy strikes me as an odd word to be used there. Either way it doesn't necessitate that they have greater power, merely implies it in my mind. The myths of the great power of the Heralds combined with the odd changes to Jezrien's Blade makes me believe that they had powers beyond a typical Surgebinder. From a narrative standpoint, I think it makes more sense for the deity-like leaders of the Knights Radiant to have a little extra. As a reader, I'd be disappointed if all the Heralds amounted to were essentially slightly weaker Knights Radiant with less efficient Surgebinding and no oaths. It doesn't make sense to me.

[Blackhoof]

Perhaps the strength of the Heralds was more their own innate abilities, as opposed to whatever the blades granted them.

 

Taln catches two or three darts flying past him. Easily, without even realising what he was doing. How strong could he be with just some normal sword, let along an honourblade?

[Yata he/him]

23 minutes ago, Blackhoof said:

Perhaps the strength of the Heralds was more their own innate abilities, as opposed to whatever the blades granted them.

 

Taln catches two or three darts flying past him. Easily, without even realising what he was doing. How strong could he be with just some normal sword, let along an honourblade?

I think the same, an Herald with the Stormlight's passive abilities will became an fearsome enemy for a Radiant.

They may not have a Shardplate (nothing in the book seems sugests they have a Plate) but their Honorblade may break a  Plate faster than SprenBlades