The bland romance in each of Brandon's books I have read

[Nyali she/her]

I'm an Ui/UX Designer and front end developer. We would be talking about how to improve the sales of the platform and THEN he says just like taking a good dump. Or on unrelated conversations while eating all the team together.....uggggg!

 

Wow, that's incredibly unprofessional. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding arising from our different associations with the word/concept. My associations are all positive, because baby.

 

 

(EDIT: Clarity)

Edited May 26, 2016 by Nyali

[Guest]

A lot of great comments were made today on this thread. I will not quote any because it would be too time consuming: I will simply try to make points which pop to my mind as I was reading you guys.

 

The first one was pertaining to Nyali's depiction of Adolin and his "issues with the women" which I don't feel was accurate. I felt I was reading Adolin through the eyes of the outside observer, in other words, how Nyali describe him basically is how everyone sees him: an experienced womanizer who loves women, to fool around with them and isn't bother with concerns such as fidelity. This may be the facade Adolin wears for all to see, but it isn't who he is. 

 

Pathfinder later state it in better terms: Adolin is horribly inexperienced, shy and nervous about moving forward. This is closer to the truth.

 

The truth has been more or less confirmed by Brandon where he did tell us most of Adolin's missteps, when it comes to courtships, have to do with him alternatively being very young, bad at it and afraid he wouldn't be good enough. This last one may be the missing key. As a character, Adolin has been defined as someone having a lot of expectations being placed on his pretty head. The first set comes from his legend of a father who not only is a walking hero, but also is a rigid tyrant who insists for people to behave has he says following his rules without leaving any leeway for either interpretations or mistakes. As the first born son and the heir, Adolin receives a large dose of restrictions to the point where he has to be the poster boy for his father's code, behaving perfectly in all instances, being the lived example of impeccable behavior. The second set comes from Adolin himself who hero-worships his father to the point where he has a hard time admitting he may be wrong. He genuinely wants to follow his father's lead and is pleased at being told what to do, how to behave, what to say, but because his father has such high standards on everything, Adolin alternatively embraced those high standards on himself. The third set comes from society which imposes him social conventions he has to follow. He has to marry and to marry he has to be the picture perfect prince every girl would dream on: this is emphasis by Shallan's rather enthralling description of Adolin prior to having met her. He is a man who comes with a reputation and this reputation is huge. Even before having met him, Shallan had already made up her mind on Adolin: he was a player with wandering eyes which needed to be tamed. 

 

So all in all, Adolin has so much pressure from his father, from society and from himself to be what he considers to be perfection, he has grown overly fearful he may... fail. Deep inside, Adolin keep on doubting, thinking he isn't capable to be the one everyone thinks he is which has forced him to basically sabotage every single one of his courtships. 

 

Why doesn't Adolin initiate physical intimacy Luciellav has asked? Because it would mean for him to drop important pieces of his armor and without its protection, Adolin is afraid his true self would get stampede on. He doesn't think himself is good enough to be someone's partner or his father's perfect son. If he were to be rejected for who he is, then it would jeopardize his self-confidence and he only has enough of it to maintain the illusion he is strong, very confident and never doubting. He also has a monster of a reputation which claims he knows what to do with a girl, except he doesn't. He is scared, very nervous and shy.

 

This bring me to my second point pertaining Brandon's habits in his books. I see a lot of people commenting how Brandon's overused of the "arranged marriage" trope was getting too predictable. I may have used the same argument, somewhere in my many posts, but I have to make another argument now. Based on the several books I have read, it strikes to me it isn't so much the arranged marriage trope Brandon favors, but the union of two individuals who wouldn't have chosen each other if not for an outside incentive. In other words, Brandon loves to bring together unexpected characters who, based on outside appearances have not much in common, but ends up learning how to appreciate each other while finding their ultimate goals are not so dissimilar as they initially thought. For instances, Wax has grown to accept he needed to be the lead of his house and how his house's success help other people. He realizes how his life in the Rough has not been about rebelling, but about running away and when he thought he was being brave, he is fact was being a coward refusing to face his issues. When he reconciles himself with... himself, he progressively realizes his goals, his desires in life were compatible with Steris. They both want the same things and he finds pleasure into doing them with her, even if she wasn't his initial choice. This, I believe, is what Brandon is trying to tell us through his romance: having similar personalities, similar occupations and similar hobbies does not make for a happy long-term relationship as happiness within marriage is more about partnership and common goals than witty banter and shooting things. The arranged weddings merely is his way to put two unexpected characters onto the same path. It isn't a finality in itself... especially in SA: both Shallan and Adolin can choose to break at any point. They aren't forced to marry each other: they are more the equivalent of a blind date organized by friends/family members. 

 

Pathfinder, I think your thoughts were well explained and not aggressive at all. I think what made Luciellav tick linking the romances she likes to teenage books which implies something negative. 

[Luciellav she/her]

That is incorrect. You should ask, but also be open to differing opinions that could expand and bring a greater understanding of the novels by hearing other people's views. Now personally I find that comment you made patronizing. 

 

It was more a taunt. In that regard, as a proverb in spanish says: "Quien que las da, las toma".

But lets close all that ok? It's really not relevant to the conversation.

 

And in that, I would say we agree to disagree in the way Brandon manages romance. Yes?

[Nyali she/her]

The first one was pertaining to Nyali's depiction of Adolin and his "issues with the women" which I don't feel was accurate. I felt I was reading Adolin through the eyes of the outside observer, in other words, how Nyali describe him basically is how everyone sees him: an experienced womanizer who loves women, to fool around with them and isn't bother with concerns such as fidelity. This may be the facade Adolin wears for all to see, but it isn't who he is. 

 

Thanks for your post! I think you're probably right, that I was seeing Adolin's prior relationships more through the eyes of others than from his own perspective. I think how hard he tries to be the person everyone else expects/wants him to be is key to his character,

particularly emphasized by him snapping at the end of WoR and finally doing what HE wants to do, and to hell with social norms.

He's so good at pretending to be the person everyone wants him to be that he doesn't know what to do when he gets close to someone and can't really pretend anymore, so he acts awkward and then things fall apart. And then he starts over with someone else, where it's easy to pretend again, putting back on the mask of the perfect prince.

 

I think that's a fairer assessment than what I had said before. Just to be clear though, I didn't mean to say that I thought Adolin is a womanizer, or that he doesn't care about other people's feelings, or anything like that. I meant that he doesn't know what to do in relationships, and as a result, he acts in ways that are perceived by the women he's with as slighting them (ignoring them or being nice to other women or giving insensitive gifts). I think the only time he breaks up with the woman instead of the other way around is with Danlan, where he doesn't feel comfortable around her (I think it was stuff she had said).

She was a spy for Taravangean, after all, who was just using him to gain access to his father.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

There has been some seriously great discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of Brandon's take on romance. Loved the commentary here as it showed me that some people interpret it just like I do and others have ways of looking at the situation that I would not have come up with on my own!

 

I think I lean more towards the OP (Luciellav) on this. Brandon, either by choice or because he has not spiked a romance-inclined author, does not seem overly interested in dishing on the romances. While what he provides is, from my perspective, adequate, I do think it is one of the weakest parts of his books. I would not mind a bit more information from each character's perspective about how they view some of the others - especially people they are, possibly, romantically interested in.

 

Also, Luciellav, I am totally with you on the Wax/Marasi pairing. You are not alone!

[king of nowhere]

Adolin doesn't seem to me like a rich boy virgin.

He does to me. He lives in a conservative society where sex outside marriage is very taboo (maybe not all vorin society as a whole, but aristocratic society for sure. those guys care too much about their heritage lines to accept uncertain parentage). meeting with a girl requires a chaperone, and adolin never courted the same girl more than a few weeks. Not only I'd bet good money on him being virgin, there's a fair chance he never even kissed anyone before shallan.

 

I might pass as snob to you. But I do dislike out of nowhere poop comments. It maybe has to do something with my boss inserting those poop comments in unrealated work conversations. And I'm just sick of it.

Well, you gotta admit that in the case of shallan it wasn't really a random unrelated comment. with adolin wearing heavy armor, it was a perfectly legitimate question. It's like all those people asking how astronauts use the toilet without gravity: it makes sense to ask. Yeah, I wouldn't have liked a random poop joke either.

 

This bring me to my second point pertaining Brandon's habits in his books. I see a lot of people commenting how Brandon's overused of the "arranged marriage" trope was getting too predictable. I may have used the same argument, somewhere in my many posts, but I have to make another argument now. Based on the several books I have read, it strikes to me it isn't so much the arranged marriage trope Brandon favors, but the union of two individuals who wouldn't have chosen each other if not for an outside incentive. 

Ok, I can agree with that. And I am the first to say that the romance comes out as genuine in every book. Still, I can't help but seeing a pattern there. Originality in a genre filled with cliches is one of Sanderson's main virtues, so it bugs (that's too strong a word, but i don't know of a lighter one) me a bit when I see some repeating element in the plotting. Sort of like when I pick up a random action novel and the main female character is introduced to the protagonist and I think "oh, they will  be making out before the end of the book.". Though on a smaller scale.

[Guest]

Thanks for your post! I think you're probably right, that I was seeing Adolin's prior relationships more through the eyes of others than from his own perspective. I think how hard he tries to be the person everyone else expects/wants him to be is key to his character,

particularly emphasized by him snapping at the end of WoR and finally doing what HE wants to do, and to hell with social norms.

He's so good at pretending to be the person everyone wants him to be that he doesn't know what to do when he gets close to someone and can't really pretend anymore, so he acts awkward and then things fall apart. And then he starts over with someone else, where it's easy to pretend again, putting back on the mask of the perfect prince.

 

I think that's a fairer assessment than what I had said before. Just to be clear though, I didn't mean to say that I thought Adolin is a womanizer, or that he doesn't care about other people's feelings, or anything like that. I meant that he doesn't know what to do in relationships, and as a result, he acts in ways that are perceived by the women he's with as slighting them (ignoring them or being nice to other women or giving insensitive gifts). I think the only time he breaks up with the woman instead of the other way around is with Danlan, where he doesn't feel comfortable around her (I think it was stuff she had said).

She was a spy for Taravangean, after all, who was just using him to gain access to his father.

 

It is easy to read Adolin as he is seen through the eyes of third persons perspective. He does not have many POV, so most of his actions are seen through observers and the observers see... what Adolin wants them to see which is anything which befit their expectations. Heck, I doubt even Adolin knows who he truly is.

 

I also have a different reading about Adolin doing you know what... He's breaking down in this scene, not truly fulfilling his desires: he has no control over himself. The poor kid is in a downward spiral.

 

 

Adolin doesn't seem to me like a rich boy virgin. It strikes me as weird that the most he does is give a hug after some sort of catastrophe. Not even a kiss started by him or holding hands, whatever. For having the personality he has, he is a bit tad passive in that regard with Shallan. Afraid of ruining it if he does something? Maybe. But is still weird behaviour for him.

 

I do not think you have a good grasp on Adolin's personality here: he is a rich boy virgin. His reputation is a complete lie: he pretends to be experienced because people expect him to be, but he has never passed first base. Experienced guys do not blush with a simple touch nor do they turn this shy over a gentle kiss on the cheek. 

 

It fits his personality to a glove because the Adolin he likes pretending to be isn't the Adolin he truly is. The real Adolin is the one we meet on a few selected occasions: when he talks to his Blade, when he reflects over being insecure about everything, when his inner stress starts to express itself through his behavior such as his Blade summoning/dismissing tic. These few scenes show us what is happening behind the mask: Adolin may act confident, but he isn't. It shows whenever he is with women, he stumbles and he does sabotage his relationships, on purpose, though unconsciously. If he were to commit to someone, then this someone would see what lies behind the mask and Adolin doesn't think what he hide is good enough for anyone. It doesn't correspond to the ideal he has been told he had to be. 

 

The fact he has a hard time giving a simply hug after a catastrophe is a clear indication as to how shy and inexperienced he is. This was a big step for him. My money is on Shallan is the first girl he actually kissed... his reaction, the "wow behavior" he has... this... speaks of someone who hasn't kissed many girls before. It was not a routine event for him. He does not kiss a girl every two days or else he wouldn't have reacted this way, he wouldn't have practically walked away when Shallan tried to kiss him. 

 

For my part, finding out the character we have been introduced to as "the Player" turning out being nothing more than an inexperienced boy who's reputation has gotten bigger than himself was truly refreshing and adorable. 

 

 

He does to me. He lives in a conservative society where sex outside marriage is very taboo (maybe not all vorin society as a whole, but aristocratic society for sure. those guys care too much about their heritage lines to accept uncertain parentage). meeting with a girl requires a chaperone, and adolin never courted the same girl more than a few weeks. Not only I'd bet good money on him being virgin, there's a fair chance he never even kissed anyone before shallan.

 

Yep. I am willing to bet a great lot of money on Adolin not only being a virgin, but on never having kissed a girl prior to Shallan. I would also say the more he dates, the greatest the expectations on his reputations get and the more shy he becomes.

 

 

Ok, I can agree with that. And I am the first to say that the romance comes out as genuine in every book. Still, I can't help but seeing a pattern there. Originality in a genre filled with cliches is one of Sanderson's main virtues, so it bugs (that's too strong a word, but i don't know of a lighter one) me a bit when I see some repeating element in the plotting. Sort of like when I pick up a random action novel and the main female character is introduced to the protagonist and I think "oh, they will  be making out before the end of the book.". Though on a smaller scale.

 

Not every one of Brandon's books has used the "arranged wedding" trope: Vin and Elend just as David and Megan have evolved outside this mold. Adolin and Shallan, as I have said in my previous post are more akin to a blind date than a true arranged wedding. Wax and Steris were a business arrangement complete with a contract more than an arranged wedding: neither were forced to agree to marry each other. Siri and Susebron truly were the arranged pair: neither had a say into it.

 

I'd say Brandon simply likes to put unexpected individuals within each other's paths: each romance seems rather distinct to me.

 

Wax and Steris is more about an older man who after figuring out the truth about himself becomes ready to love an unexpected woman who may not share his hobby or his intellect, but managed to turn into a good supporting partner with similar goals.

 

Siri and Susebron are about two individual learning to adapt to new circumstances, together while both finding they have an inner strength they never thought to possess. Together, they both grow.

 

Adolin and Shallan are about two young people who's inner self have been hidden through several layers of lie. They both have been hiding their vulnerability through a mask and while Shallan has finally started to let her true self blossom, Adolin has yet to figure out many thing about himself. Can they pierce through each other's armor and become each other ally? We have yet to find out.

 

Neither however seem cliche nor a repeat of each other to me...  

[Pathfinder]

It was more a taunt. In that regard, as a proverb in spanish says: "Quien que las da, las toma".

But lets close all that ok? It's really not relevant to the conversation.

 

And in that, I would say we agree to disagree in the way Brandon manages romance. Yes?

My wife is puerto rican and speaks fluent spanish, so I know what that phrase means, and its connotation. In fact she has a colorful response for what you said herself. But I will chose to ignore your comment to close the issue.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Fedcomic he/him]

Personally, I have enjoyed the romances in Brandon's books (some more than others, of course). But romance isn't my primary genre (in either the bookstore sense or the elemental sense as discussed in the current season of Writing Excuses) so maybe I'm just looking for different things when I crack open a book. De gustibus non est disputandum and all that.  

 

And this might be the best evidence that tastes vary: The very thing that the original post points out as defective in Brandon's books (romance) has actually won him a number of awards (from the Romantic Times, no less).   

 

All I can say in the end is, hooray for the vast divergence of human preferences.  It maximizes individual pleasure in a world of scarce resources.  (In other words, thank goodness my wife hates jalapeno-stuffed green olives.  More for me!)

[Luciellav she/her]

My wife is puerto rican and speaks fluent spanish, so I know what that phrase means, and its connotation. In fact she has a colorful response for what you said herself. But I will chose to ignore your comment to close the issue.

Eh, no?

Its a proverb and it means: who ever attacks is prone to receive an attack back.

I have no idea what your wife imagined. But was not that.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Luciellav

[DreamEternal]

It is more of a stock phrase than a proverb. And, if it is used like the equivalent phrase in portuguese, it is a quite annoying way to taunt or provoke someone, so I can easily imagine why she has a colourful response for it.

[natc]

Thoughts on Wax and the sisters.

I think everyone admits Marasi seemed like the obvious setup at first. She does definitely have the skills to keep up with Wax in his work, back him up out there. But once the hero worship passed her discontent visibly grew. She wanted to change society for the better by changing the core of it, not by killing off one criminal at a time with an overdose of bullets. Wax was not what she wanted to be, and while they can work together well they are both competent enough to work separately for their own goals. Handing over the Bands was honestly the moment she finally made her point known to him for good. This is Wax's job. She wants to be known for having played her own desired role instead of being known for helping him accomplish his.

Steris seems as different from Wax as they come at first, but she understood him in feeling like a fish out of the water. She's good with things Wax isn't good at, and is contentas the sidekick wife in the background because she knows she is the most useful this way. Wax needs someone like her in the end, if even only 7% of the time.

Overall, Marasi and Wax are similar and a good pair on the surface, but Marasi definitely no longer wishes for it to be that way and her life goals lead further from his by the day. Steris actually relates to Wax better beneath the surface, and their outward differences compliment each other. And she is very much content being the complimentary partner doing all the background work her husband can't do himself, while Marasi very much wants to strike her own path, and wants people to acknowledge it. I say the three of them make it work.

Wayne and MeLaan are much harder to analyze . . .

[king of nowhere]

Wayne and MeLaan are much harder to analyze . . .

wayne and melaan are to each other the only person who understands them. on one side you have wayne. he's very eccentric, and by that we mean "totally nuts". then we have melaan; she is a sort of rebel as a kandra, with a very different attitude from the others. both  have very peculiar attitudes towards their role in society. add that they can bond over the whole "impersonating others" stuff, and you have a good mix.

[Nyali she/her]

(Shadows of Self spoilers)

 

Wayne and MeLaan are much harder to analyze . . .

 

True, but I SHIP THEM SO HARD OMG and I don't generally ship characters <.< I've been shipping them since they met at the bar in SoS - the Kanda who wants to be human and the human who acts like a Kandra.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Nyali

[Pathfinder]

wayne and melaan are to each other the only person who understands them. on one side you have wayne. he's very eccentric, and by that we mean "totally nuts". then we have melaan; she is a sort of rebel as a kandra, with a very different attitude from the others. both  have very peculiar attitudes towards their role in society. add that they can bond over the whole "impersonating others" stuff, and you have a good mix.

Lol like the movie Deadpool, Wayne's crazy matches MeLaan's crazy